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Old 2006-09-15, 19:24   Link #561
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Do you feel that way for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd? No, because they are for sure dead. That kind of possibility appears to be only valid for the case Yondaime, and that is why it won't be illogical to claim he may not be dead.
Don't see why. The 3rd was using an advanced shinten jutsu, only a brainwashed pawn died against Oro in order to hide that Sarutobi leads the Akatsuki.
He also wears a wig and some lenses for the fun of it.
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Old 2006-09-15, 19:49   Link #562
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Don't see why. The 3rd was using an advanced shinten jutsu, only a brainwashed pawn died against Oro in order to hide that Sarutobi leads the Akatsuki.
He also wears a wig and some lenses for the fun of it.
You are forgetting a few simple details, the death body did stay as Sarutobi's original body not a pawn's body, that person summoned Enma so it is not a typical pawn, that person carried the memories of Sarutobi, and the spirit bounded by Death God showed Sarutobi's spirit not some pawn's spirit. And even if that body was a transformed body of a pawn, that spirit bounded by Death God was Sarutobi's spirit, so his real body can enjoy whatever is allowed by the imagination, his spirit was locked away.
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Old 2006-09-15, 21:03   Link #563
Sabaku Kyu
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Sazelyt, I think Hunter's comment was poking fun and not being serious. Still, I'm glad you exposed the flaws in reasoning because I'm sure there's someone who would've thought it was a great idea and we'd be seeing threads about the 3rd being alive and leading Akatsuki.
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Old 2006-09-15, 21:33   Link #564
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu
Sazelyt, I think Hunter's comment was poking fun and not being serious. Still, I'm glad you exposed the flaws in reasoning because I'm sure there's someone who would've thought it was a great idea and we'd be seeing threads about the 3rd being alive and leading Akatsuki.
I know what Hunter is trying to achieve, but still Yondaime's case will stay as a more inherently mysterious case compared to what you can come up with Sandaime as an artifical mysterious case (still Hunter or someone else can find examples - combining the jutsus to come up with another jutsu for instance - that can go beyond what I can come up with).
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Old 2006-09-16, 07:17   Link #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
You are forgetting a few simple details, the death body did stay as Sarutobi's original body not a pawn's body, that person summoned Enma so it is not a typical pawn, that person carried the memories of Sarutobi, and the spirit bounded by Death God showed Sarutobi's spirit not some pawn's spirit. And even if that body was a transformed body of a pawn, that spirit bounded by Death God was Sarutobi's spirit, so his real body can enjoy whatever is allowed by the imagination, his spirit was locked away.
I don't think I forgot these details : the body remained as such because it was an advanced shinten, it could summon Enma because it was a shinten, he though he was Sarutobi because he was brainwashed which made his spirit shaped like the person's he thought he really was.
That or evil Sarutobi used his hidden twin brother of course.

Gotta love these conspiracy theories.
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Old 2006-09-16, 10:59   Link #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
I don't think I forgot these details : the body remained as such because it was an advanced shinten, it could summon Enma because it was a shinten, he though he was Sarutobi because he was brainwashed which made his spirit shaped like the person's he thought he really was.
That or evil Sarutobi used his hidden twin brother of course.

Gotta love these conspiracy theories.
Just to make some corrections, since the above post can deceive some people.

There is "NO" jutsu that would make a spirit look like another person's spirit. The summon is based on a blood connection, only people who have such connection can be able to summon, and there is currently "NO" jutsu that makes that kind of summon possible. Sarutobi has "NO" evil brother or sister that is known. (By the way I think you forgot those details, since the answer is not creative enough.)
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Old 2006-09-16, 12:21   Link #567
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i wonder if its possible to do a body transfer on a dead body....oro in yondaimes body...
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Old 2006-09-16, 13:02   Link #568
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Mabye if somone recently died, but since Yondaime has been dead for what 10 to 15 years it would be very decomposed so it wouldnt work.
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Old 2006-09-16, 13:29   Link #569
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I dont think it would be possible.

If dead bodies were usable he could have used Kimamaro (sp?) the reason that candidate was unsuccessful was his illness and impending death which leads me to believe that Oro needs a living healthy body to move into.

Of course if they want to create more filler they could always move oro into a dead body and just have him sit there decomposing for 3 years until he can swap again.

Episode #410 - Rotten Soul!!Rotten Mind!!Rotting Body? Orochimaru is rotten! Dattebayo!
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Old 2006-09-17, 07:06   Link #570
Ero-Senn1n
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About Yondaime being alive theories, eternal life, resurrection, etc.... - all the crazy ideas
(manga spoilers!)
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-09-17, 09:42   Link #571
Ichimaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electroguy
I dont think it would be possible.

If dead bodies were usable he could have used Kimamaro (sp?) the reason that candidate was unsuccessful was his illness and impending death which leads me to believe that Oro needs a living healthy body to move into.

Of course if they want to create more filler they could always move oro into a dead body and just have him sit there decomposing for 3 years until he can swap again.

Episode #410 - Rotten Soul!!Rotten Mind!!Rotting Body? Orochimaru is rotten! Dattebayo!
a body will not decompose if its stored properly probaly in cold icy area.....and i dont think oro would still want kimimarus body since it was infected with a virus which stuff up his blood limit
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Old 2006-09-17, 16:46   Link #572
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The conditions of storage would be irrelevant Oro would still need to be in the body, even if you could slow down or stop the decomp it would still be a useless vessel.
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Old 2006-09-17, 18:09   Link #573
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Who was the strongest ninja in Konoha?
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Old 2006-09-17, 19:43   Link #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
Who was the strongest ninja in Konoha?
In correct order, Shodai, Nidaime, Sandaime, Yondaime, Sandaime again, and now Godaime Tsunade.
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Old 2006-09-17, 19:49   Link #575
Yamatofruit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
In correct order, Shodai, Nidaime, Sandaime, Yondaime, Sandaime again, and now Godaime Tsunade.
Didn't it say that Yondaime was the best ninja that Konoha ever produced?
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Old 2006-09-17, 20:02   Link #576
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamatofruit
Didn't it say that Yondaime was the best ninja that Konoha ever produced?
Strength is a relative and time-varying measure. Sandaime was considered as strong as Orochimaru (if not stronger) ten years earlier, and most probably stronger than him if you go a few more years earlier. During the selection of the 4th Hokage, Oro would have taken that title if he were to choose the good side, meaning in terms of strength Yondaime and him would be at similar level. As long as those change, you cannot specify a clear winner that can stay the same all the time.
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Old 2006-09-17, 20:15   Link #577
Yamatofruit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Strength is a relative and time-varying measure. Sandaime was considered as strong as Orochimaru (if not stronger) ten years earlier, and most probably stronger than him if you go a few more years earlier. During the selection of the 4th Hokage, Oro would have taken that title if he were to choose the good side, meaning in terms of strength Yondaime and him would be at similar level. As long as those change, you cannot specify a clear winner that can stay the same all the time.
Oh... I see.
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Old 2006-09-18, 11:49   Link #578
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Just to make some corrections, since the above post can deceive some people.

There is "NO" jutsu that would make a spirit look like another person's spirit. The summon is based on a blood connection, only people who have such connection can be able to summon, and there is currently "NO" jutsu that makes that kind of summon possible. Sarutobi has "NO" evil brother or sister that is known. (By the way I think you forgot those details, since the answer is not creative enough.)
It's not creative enough because it wasn't mean to be that way, it's not like I even remotely believed in what I say.
Had I forgot these details I would have simply said that Sarutobi was some no name pawn under Henge.
Spoiler:
because his soul had the form of his face I added brainwashed (heck forbidden chakra soulwashed if you prefer!) and that's all.

The point is that Yondaime's fate isn't as mysterious as you try to present, actually except the fact that we directly saw the soul of the 3 first Hokage being eaten we do know from characters that it's what happened to the 4th.
It's not like his body suddenly disappeared after he sealed the Kyubi or like the manga & Data book didn't say that Sarutobi used the very same jutsu he used against the Kyubi (except that Yondaime used 2 others seals in order to do his job on Naruto).

The only thing that makes Yondaime's fate inherently mysterious is his fans wanting him back and kicking.
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Old 2006-09-18, 12:12   Link #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
... actually except the fact that we directly saw the soul of the 3 first Hokage being eaten we do know from characters that it's what happened to the 4th...
I think, and I believe many do so, the difference between the Death God techniques used by Sandaime and Yondaime is very big.

The soul is extracted by Death God, cut by Death God, claimed by Death God, with no actual direct interference from the human or human's soul side when Sandaime used that technique. It didn't seem like Sandaime had any power to change the path soul extraction follows.

Yondaime invalidated those observations by claiming back Kyuubi's soul from Death God to seal into Naruto. If he can fool Death God in such a way, what he can do with his own soul is open to many possibilities, beyond the usual interpretation of he died based on what we saw in Sandaime's use of the Death God jutsu.
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Old 2006-09-19, 16:08   Link #580
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I think, and I believe many do so, the difference between the Death God techniques used by Sandaime and Yondaime is very big.
Yes, you think and many do.
That's what I said about fans wanting more about him (if you feel fans's too strong of a word let's say readers).
You think the difference is very big, well Sandaime didn't seem to feel that way and contrary to us he did know the mechanism of this jutsu.
He was the one who explained how this jutsu acted and he was the one saying this was the very jutsu used by Yondaime in order to seal the Kyubi.
He certainely didn't seem to think there was some kind of impossibility about it.

You say it didn't seem like Sandaime could change the path of soul extraction, how can you draw this conclusion given that he never tried nor had any reason to have tried?
Not only that but as I already said in my previous post, if Yondaime used the Shiki Fujinn to tear off Kyubi's soul he also used the Shishou Fuuin along with the Hakke no Fuuin Shiki in order to seal the Soul of the Kyubi inside Naruto and allow his chakra to mix with Naruto's.
In other words the Shiki Fujinn isn't mean to have created a Jinchuuriki by itself, it was a the combined use of several seals for various purposes which did the job.

To summarize my point, yes it's always possible for Yondaime to make some incredible reapparition out of the blue just as Zabuza can show up if Kishimoto suddenly fancies the idea.
But his death isn't presented as something mysterious in the manga.
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