Code Geass R2 - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Do you think they really care about Pendragon?

It's not about Pendragon itself. It's about what it reveals about Schneizel. If they truly think Lelouch is their biggest problem, then they're thinking short term. As world leaders, they should think ahead a little bit and realize they're next. Heck, didn't they see that pattern with Lelouch already? Britania, and then, the world! They should also remember that, while Lelouch is the evil bastard who uses Geass, Schneizel is the evil bastard who uses Fleia on civilian population centers.

Also Li doesn't seem to trust Schneizel at all. I don't think he's very impressed with the likes of Ougi's decision to go along with Schneizel, but until he has a good reason to break away from them he's sort of stuck where he is. It's sort of Zero's fault again actually. If he hadn't had the member nations of the UFN turn the worlds army over to the Black Knight's command then the decision in the room with Schneizel wouldn't be quite so binding at the moment.

There is that, but he should have used their betrayal of Lelouch (or Lelouch's "betrayal", whatever) as an excuse to renegotiate the powers of the guys Lelouch himself has chosen to head the UFN's armed forces. So far, all his distrust has translated into are little moues. Bloody useless.

Also Lelouch forcibly gave up his chance to be the UFN's ally again because of his belief that he has to go it alone, so can one really blame them for continuing the alliance with Schneizel against the Demon King of Britannia for the time being? It's not a matter of them being idiots, it's a matter of them siding with whoever heads the power that appears to be the lesser of two evils.

And as I said, that's thinking short term. I really hope they've thought of something to check him after the battle, but somehow, I'm doubtful.


Also, I read in your blog you think Schneizel wants everlasting world peace, and that's why all the sacrifices are justified. Maybe you're right, but if so, he's deluded. If, despite the Britanian conquests, he hasn't heard of asymmetric warfare yet, he will. And then what? Destroy the world to save it?

[wingdarkness]

Well this was quite the interesting episode…Lulu and Schniezel finally got a chance to REALLY play chess…Good for them (Lots of illegal moves it seemed too^^)For the most part it wasn’t that bad…I mean it obviously could have been better, but unfortunately the pace of this series since the mid-way point has been such that it doesn’t allow for one great climax, just a lot of mini-orgasms if one at all…

To think at about episode 14 my biggest complaint about this series was that it was telling the story at too slow and arbitrary a pace…I mean I thought the showdown with V.V. or Charles could have been the endgame of this series and I would have been fine with that, but they both seem like that neighborhood dog that ran outta your backyard that 1 time never to be seen again…This might be the first series I ever watched where I got TOO MUCH of what I wanted to the point of straight-up bewilderment….This series seems like it ended already and all that’s left is the technicality of wrapping it up while figuring out what plot-points and character progressions to scrap…Expect heavy flashback, foreshadow, character clean-up scenes like the one with Ougi in the next 2 episodes…

Now I don’t know if the creator’s goal was a 3rd season or not, but I wish they could have just focused on Charles in the end and saved the rest for a new manga or something because we’re gonna end-up having yet another rushed last 2 episodes of a Sunrise show and that’s a damn shame this time around when the story could have easily been fleshed out if they had started the beginning of the season seriously instead of playing around… I mean you can’t even enjoy Lulu as emperor for a few eps cause it’s already the next next stage every 5 mins…As for this episode it just feels like they played every climax card in the book, which made something like Cornelia’s death (?) just seem like someone flipping thru pages…The death of Xing Ke’s moe or the rest of those nation-heads? Did anyone honestly care? Because the focus is on so much $hit and little to no time to work with the ability to create one really good scene vs. the millions of other scenes... It just isn’t prudent anymore…

Schniezel’s Mask wound up being very cliché and the fact that we now officially see this makes the depth of Schniezel’s character even more in question...As I watch him face off with Lulu I couldn’t help but thinking who the hell is this guy? Does he truly deserve to be the endboss of this series over Charles, V.V., C.C., or Suzaku? Is his relationship to Lulu superseded all others in a great awaited showdown? And in the end my answer is, “no”…And that’s why in the end this show will fail a bit…It’s unfortunate, but the climax came in ep 21…Who here is ready to say Schniezel is the best antagonist to end this epic story? Damn Sunrise you were so close for once, but now you end up having something very comparable to GSD in the end (Obviously better along the way and without a perfect victory, but with the sense that the series won't accomplish what you could easily see it could have or intended too--Plus rushed again)…

Finally I could have sworn there was an ep that said the double-eye Geass gives you some more l33t skills...So why does Lulu's Geass still seem basic? Anyways 7 outta 10 for this episode, because I did really enjoy the whole set-up for the battle, but probably being too generous with that score…


Sidebar: I find it shocking and awesome that Suzaku has now become GSD’s Kira and Shinn combined to create one character^^…Understaded Nobility and Headstrong Stupidity all rolled into one…

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's not about Pendragon itself. It's about what it reveals about Schneizel. If they truly think Lelouch is their biggest problem, then they're thinking short term. As world leaders, they should think ahead a little bit and realize they're next. Heck, didn't they see that pattern with Lelouch already? Britania, and then, the world! They should also remember that, while Lelouch is the evil bastard who uses Geass, Schneizel is the evil bastard who uses Fleia on civilian population centers.


There is that, but he should have used their betrayal of Lelouch (or Lelouch's "betrayal", whatever) as an excuse to renegotiate the powers of the guys Lelouch himself has chosen to head the UFN's armed forces. So far, all his distrust has translated into are little moues. Bloody useless.



And as I said, that's thinking short term. I really hope they've thought of something to check him after the battle, but somehow, I'm doubtful.


Also, I read in your blog you think Schneizel wants everlasting world peace, and that's why all the sacrifices are justified. Maybe you're right, but if so, he's deluded. If, despite the Britanian conquests, he hasn't heard of asymmetric warfare yet, he will. And then what? Destroy the world to save it?

The thing is, Schneizel never shown himself to be a bastard. Instead, he always appears as the gentle rational person who people can trust. From the Black Knights Point of view, Schneizel is the enemy of their enemy, so it would make since if they joined forces with him.

Think about this. Schneizel told the Order nothing but the truth prior to the battle with Lelouch, while Lelouch had admitted to the Order that he was using them as pawns, that all of this is simply a game for him, and is holding ransom all of the leaders of their nation. In their eye's, Lelouch is the most dangerous enemy they must face now.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Also, I read in your blog you think Schneizel wants everlasting world peace, and that's why all the sacrifices are justified. Maybe you're right, but if so, he's deluded. If, despite the Britanian conquests, he hasn't heard of asymmetric warfare yet, he will. And then what? Destroy the world to save it?

That sounds about right actually... well, sort of. Going through the episode like four more times because of its Epicness again, I noticed something interesting when he said he would become god. Right after he said that he specifically said "If the people want world peace from me." No reason to doubt that since that was Schneizel's more true self out at that moment in time. But that isn't the first time he said something like that either. In R2 11 he also said a government is the people and what not and if they lose support, they aren't fit. Could Lelouch's main goal to beat Schneizel to turn everyone against him? Schneizel, while as deluded and insane like his brother, he doesn't appear to be one to go back on his ideals. I guess we wait and see though.

I also think he has some infatuation with crushing Lelouch for some unknown reason at the moment. His talk with Cornelia in 23 seems to show that he can't STAND Lelouch and how he does things and he really thinks his way is better (when it really isn't.) We know his goal, but now we need a motivation to go with it. I expect a freaking Flashback next episode explaining this. We got one from Lelouch, C.C., Charles, and Suzaku. So I think it should be nice to see what is motivating Schneizel.... Sunrise better not give us nothing though... Or I will be really underwhelmed.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

The thing is, Schneizel never shown himself to be a bastard. Instead, he always appears as the gentle rational person who people can trust.

Except for - I'm sorry to always come back to that - the nuking of Pendragon. How about watching what people do, instead of how nice they look?

From the Black Knights Point of view, Schneizel is the enemy of their enemy, so it would make since if they joined forces with him.

War makes strange bedfellows. Which is why you should bloody well worry about what happens after the war.

Think about this. Schneizel told the Order nothing but the truth prior to the battle with Lelouch, while Lelouch had admitted to the Order that he was using them as pawns, that all of this is simply a game for him, and is holding ransom all of the leaders of their nation. In their eye's, Lelouch is the most dangerous enemy they must face now.

No, Lelouch is only more immediate, not bigger. But rationally, they can afford a loose Lelouch a lot more easily than a loose Fleija launching maniac.

Originally Posted by Orga777

That sounds about right actually...

Well, I haven't excluded the possibility that Schneizel is, in fact, deluded.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Except for - I'm sorry to always come back to that - the nuking of Pendragon. How about watching what people do, instead of how nice they look?

Remember, Xing-Ke did not condone that action at all. But they need Schenizel in order to take down Lelouch, hence ignoring that action for a more important cause.

War makes strange bedfellows. Which is why you should bloody well worry about what happens after the war.

Oh? And you don't think they wouldn't worry? Remember, during WWII the US were allies with the Soviet Union, and yet we still worried about what they would do afterward, and they acted. Same can be said about the BK's here.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

They weren't his allies to begin with if I recall the Hotel Jacking, they were exactly the type of terrorist and archaic order that he denied, unable to differentiate between the innocent and the enemy, and thus different from Britannia only in name, not in methods. And did I just not say he had his own goals? So what of it, did they not follow him in order to do exactly the same thing? Uh, he only still gets to use it once per person, and that hasn't changed in the slightest, all he needs is to reword the command for them to obey him for all time right afterward. He didn't do it with them though, never has either when he founded the group. Uh, they were trying to gun him down in Turn 19, I rather don't see why he should hold back on the Geass now at that point. Happily treats them as pawns... right, lets go back to a time in Turn 2 when he could have just as easily used Urabe and Kallen as sacrificial pawns like they suggested when fighting Rolo, it was the most logical solution after all and they were perfectly willing, but he didn't of course. Then there goes the time when Kallen got captured and Diethard insisted that they abandon her, which Lelouch rejected as well. Oh and Stage 6, when he was talking to Ougi on the phone during Season 1, he grew worried about the familiarity and getting too attached to them and thought about simply breaking off ties at that point, which was why he tried out a new group in Stage 7 and got beat by Cornelia, and instead reversed that decision and worked with them in Stage 8 because such attachment would be necessary to form a more united army to beat Britannia. Far as I can see, the only thing I'll give the Order the right to anything is the right to a quick execution for treason. <_<

Perhaps I mixed up names. I was referring to the head of the JLF, who Zero blew up to get to Cornelia.

Lelouch never thought to use his Geass as a slave-maker before this because of plot purposes.

Lelouch wasn;t worried about getting emotionally close to them; he was worried about them bugging him on his cell phone and potentially making it easier for Britannia to find him. And that other group was used with Cornelia simply because they were already in the ghetto.

And as a general statement since everyone else is repating the same thing or just putting words in my mouth:

I'm not saying that Lelouch is in the wrong for wanting to crush the order. I am saying they weren't in the wrong for wanting to toss him. He would do the same to them at the drop of a hat, and in fact did at the end of S1. He's lucky the plot had them take him back with no questions addressed after he basically abandoned them at the most important of times and only had the explanation of "lol so wut?" This is why there's no reason to hate the Order for what they've done unless you're just that blind of a Lelouch fanatic. It was a long time coming, and Lelouch created the situation himself.

On Schneizel:

I also think he has some infatuation with crushing Lelouch for some unknown reason at the moment. His talk with Cornelia in 23 seems to show that he can't STAND Lelouch and how he does things and he really thinks his way is better (when it really isn't.)

That's the exact opposite of the case. Schneizel himself has stated that Lelouch is an idiot if all he cares about is defeating Schneizel, which indicates that he in turn doesn't see defeating Lelouch as his main objective (hell, Cornelia even called him on this). Schneizel has his long-term goal, and he's going for it. Lelouch is merely part of his plan for achieving that goal.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Remember, Xing-Ke did not condone that action at all. But they need Schenizel in order to take down Lelouch, hence ignoring that action for a more important cause.

What I'm disputing is whether Lelouch is, indeed, more important.

Oh? And you don't think they wouldn't worry? Remember, during WWII the US were allies with the Soviet Union, and yet we still worried about what they would do afterward, and they acted. Same can be said about the BK's here.

Then they should worry harder. Right now, when Damocles is all he has, is the time to do something about Schneizel. If he gets the Britanian empire itself too, it'll be too late. It's not like their need for Schneizel is even that absolute. Xing-ke has demonstrated an ability to defeat Lelouch tactically, at least.

[Plun]

My hatred towards Nina is gone now. Now I'm really hating Schneizel. I thought he was cool in the beginning.

Just two more episodes left. Can hardly wait for the next one.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Plun

My hatred towards Nina is gone now. Now I'm really hating Schneizel. I thought he was cool in the beginning.

Just two more episodes left. Can hardly wait for the next one.

Don't hate Schneizel! His pure Epic Win is just too much! Sure he is insane, sure he is deluded, sure he is a bastard, but damn it, he is just... too awesome a "bad guy" to hate.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Don't hate Schneizel! His pure Epic Win is just too much! Sure he is insane, sure he is deluded, sure he is a bastard, but damn it, he is just... too awesome a "bad guy" to hate.

I didn't care for him much at first but now I just hate him. He makes a terrible villian in my opinion and almost seems like his his current character demenor is different than before. Kind of like his character was suddenly changed to fit a stereotypical villian role.

[Anh_Minh]

Meh. I prefer Dullindal. Sure, his plan was stupid too, but he at least realized there was more to world peace than pointing a super-weapon at the world (despite that being the main part of his plan...).

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki

I didn't care for him much at first but now I just hate him. He makes a terrible villian in my opinion and almost seems like his his current character demenor is different than before. Kind of like his character was suddenly changed to fit a stereotypical villian role.

Bah. Anyone that can snap their fingers and have a machine gun turret come out of the wall and gun down someone gets positive rep points from me.

Besides, he isn't stereotypical... at least not yet. We still don't know his motivation for all this. Something must have pushed him to such extreme measures, and we will hopefully learn them next episode (in what better be flashback scenes... if we can get that with Charles, Lelouch, C.C., and Suzaku, then it would be fair for the final antagonist too...)

And his demeanor hasn't changed either. He is still... well, Schneizel. He just knows how to spin people to work for him because, really, he is good with words. Like his brother. That rally the troops speech right before the battle is proof of that.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Meh. I prefer Dullindal. Sure, his plan was stupid too, but he at least realized there was more to world peace than pointing a super-weapon at the world (despite that being the main part of his plan...).

LOL...I'm still waiting for The DESTINY PLAN sign-up sheet to arrive at my house...That's like so much more acceptable than say a Genesis or a FEJITA, I mean FLEJIA^^...Wow the Desinty Plan pwns Schinzel, Charles, and Lulu's prospect of changing the world...Dully's plan actually gave society somewhat of a choice over just sheer arrogance to remake the world...

[snarf2691]

hey wouldnt it be fun if we realized that i was making a joke and parodying charles's ideal world and NOT trying to put down the writing staff or say the taniguchi has depression

[Nanao-kun]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

LOL...I'm still waiting for The DESTINY PLAN sign-up sheet to arrive at my house...That's like so much more acceptable than say a Genesis or a FEJITA, I mean FLEJIA^^...Wow the Desinty Plan pwns Schinzel, Charles, and Lulu's prospect of changing the world...Dully's plan actually gave society somewhat of a choice over just sheer arrogance to remake the world...

Agreed. His plan was much more socially acceptable and much more useful. After all, who doesn't want to be their best?

[Scion]

I think that Schnizel and Lelouch are like the exact opposites

Schnizel is much more deranged than Lelouch, but he seems rational and everybody trusts him

Lelouch however, is probably normal but he just pushes everybody who actually care for him away

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Perhaps I mixed up names. I was referring to the head of the JLF, who Zero blew up to get to Cornelia.

Same group, same slogan. A bunch of relics with only a glorified name without so much as managing to distinguish amongst the people and their enemies without even really accomplishing anything, thus losing any meaning to their cause. Terrorism at its finest. I don't see why Lelouch would have a different impression of them then he did in their first meeting.

Lelouch never thought to use his Geass as a slave-maker before this because of plot purposes.

You know that's not an actual answer within the realm of the story. Lelouch must have had a reason for holding back before now, perhaps because at some point he actually came to care about his subordinates, as hard as that may be for you to accept.

Lelouch wasn;t worried about getting emotionally close to them; he was worried about them bugging him on his cell phone and potentially making it easier for Britannia to find him. And that other group was used with Cornelia simply because they were already in the ghetto.

The hell you come up with the audacity for a counter explanation that wasn't even backed in the series, versus the actual explanation Lelouch himself gives... and he uses his cellphone all the freaking time to talk to them afterward BTW so that rather lame excuse just fails on so many levels. Yeah, and they proved to be nothing but a bunch of gutless and unorgainized cowards in the end, hence why Lelouch recontacts Ougi to form the Order thanks to their attachment to him.

And as a general statement since everyone else is repating the same thing or just putting words in my mouth:

I'm not saying that Lelouch is in the wrong for wanting to crush the order. I am saying they weren't in the wrong for wanting to toss him. He would do the same to them at the drop of a hat, and in fact did at the end of S1. He's lucky the plot had them take him back with no questions addressed after he basically abandoned them at the most important of times and only had the explanation of "lol so wut?" This is why there's no reason to hate the Order for what they've done unless you're just that blind of a Lelouch fanatic. It was a long time coming, and Lelouch created the situation himself.

On Schneizel:

The hell he did, he's shown plenty of examples for caring for his subordinates, take Urabe in Turn 2, Kallen in Turn 10 and Turn 19, hell he saved their bacon in Turn 4 as well so that should even out the shit from the Black Rebellion. Hell, throw in the second time Nunally shows up, and he ends up choosing them over her in Turn 7 to continue the rebellion. Lelouch is far from perfect, but he's also far from hopeless as he's demonstrated an ability to learn from his mistakes. Maybe he did create the situation at times, but I only go so far as to blame him for his inability to open up to his group on that score, which I can understand his reasons for doing so at the same time as well. Lelouch has been far from being a saint, but he's also been far from being unreliable or unappreciative of them when the chips are down, and in this case I point the Order for being even worse then he was at times, unless Ougi suddenly harboring Villeta all the way back in Season 1 doesn't ring any bells. Had they not bought Schneizel's ploy, I see no reason why Lelouch would not have continued to work with and commit to their joint goals. So now the lines are drawn and the battle is on, its time to witness which one of the scorned and apparently scorned sides emerges victorious.

That's the exact opposite of the case. Schneizel himself has stated that Lelouch is an idiot if all he cares about is defeating Schneizel, which indicates that he in turn doesn't see defeating Lelouch as his main objective (hell, Cornelia even called him on this). Schneizel has his long-term goal, and he's going for it. Lelouch is merely part of his plan for achieving that goal.

Like Schneizel is really the god he claims he is and what he says will somehow bend the entire battle to his whims because of his charming voice.... Right, and I could say the same for Lelouch at the same time since Schneizel is merely one of the final hurdles to overcome in order to accomplish Zero Requiem.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki

I didn't care for him much at first but now I just hate him. He makes a terrible villian in my opinion and almost seems like his his current character demenor is different than before. Kind of like his character was suddenly changed to fit a stereotypical villian role.

Look, he's still better then a lot of mecha series villains. After Soko No Strain's Ralph Werec though almost every villain looks good to me. That's poor reason, motivation and illogical personality shifting all in rolled in one. Compared to him and a lot of other villains, Schneizel's reasons and his stepping up make sense. Ever since the China arc we've seen him setting other people up to do his work for him and a desire for conquest and power. He seems absolutely convinced in his fitness to rule because he thinks he has the support of the people. This goes back to what he said in episode 11 about the failure of the Eunuch's government and the importance of popular support in fitness to govern. And in a way he does, but only because he's sort of forced them into a situation where he can have their support.

Still trust me, it's more complex then that with him. He has an obvious agenda in being a villainous character, but he also seems to have hidden ones. He's not wearing his emotions and feelings on his sleeve like most of the other characters, but it slips out every now and then. He's pretty much always been like this.

[Jeffry2009]

Originally Posted by Plun

My hatred towards Nina is gone now. Now I'm really hating Schneizel. I thought he was cool in the beginning.

Just two more episodes left. Can hardly wait for the next one.

I heard that. I mean remember that TURN 19 that he blaming lelouch that euphie gone massacre all because of lelouch? Until he banishes him and the black knights turns on him? I've felt upset when i heard your thoughts about it.
Anyway, i'd should get over all of those Rolo issues that i was upset about last time

(yeah, He's already dead. We've not gonna need him anymore.)


But Where's Milly & Rivalz Gone too now?

Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki

I didn't care for him much at first but now I just hate him. He makes a terrible villian in my opinion and almost seems like his his current character demenor is different than before. Kind of like his character was suddenly changed to fit a stereotypical villian role.

To me, that makes me kinda gay to me when i look on his cute face between suzaku.