Macross Delta - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Kairin]

Welcome to the discussion thread for Macross Delta, Episode 12.

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[Stark700]

Spoiler:

Hmm, looks like Mirage got promoted. I guess we'll be seeing a lot more of her in action and hope that she'll earn some victories in the sky.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Stark700

Spoiler:

Hmm, looks like Mirage got promoted. I guess we'll be seeing a lot more of her in action and hope that she'll earn some victories in the sky.

Spoiler:

And she gets to keep her own fighter instead of the one that they had to clean all of the blood out of.

[Alhazred]

Spoiler:

Well, we've finally gotten our cartoonishly villainous NUNS representative- ready and willing to nuke the Protoculture ruins on Al Shahal and/or Ragna to stymie Windermere's ambitions, consequences for the local population be damned. It might be a red herring and it still doesn't rule out the possibility that a third party or Windermere themselves did it on their own planet, but it certainly continues the tradition of painting NUNS in the most unfavorable light possible. Mirage gets promoted and only one of the visiting Chaos pilots even vaguely stood out in the briefing scene, so it's likely that green-haired woman or nothing when it comes to new pilots for delta.

[wissenschaft]

Spoiler:

Honestly, considering that those ruins help give Windermere the ability to mind control whole planets, I think its reasonable to considering nuking those ruins. They are that great a threat.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

Spoiler:

Honestly, considering that those ruins help give Windermere the ability to mind control whole planets, I think its reasonable to considering nuking those ruins. They are that great a threat.

Spoiler:

True, it could be a tactically sound consideration (though the current implication of nuking these ruins is that it has the very real potential of dooming the planet as a whole, so it's pretty much a scorched earth tactic.) It would have seemed less evil if the NUNS representative hadn't spent the entire meeting smirking like a supervillain in the process of revealing his evil plot that the heroes have 'no chance' of countering.

[kuromitsu]

Aww, Moment Killer Mirage.

Spoiler for ep 12:

That look she gave Freyja, though. Poor Freyja, she has no idea what's going on. Also, lol Hayate just did the "I love... your song" thing. XD

Arad was pretty lol, too. Hey Mirage, consider yourself promoted. What? We have a huge and all-important battle coming up and the fate of a whole planet depends on your performance? With all those cute sea-kitties and jellyfish? Ahaha, no pressure. (I don't want to say "I told you" but... I told you. :P She really needs to find her big girl panties now, although going by her attitude in the end she seems to have found them.) I guess there was no-one else to fill that position, Hayate is too much of a noob still and Chuck is not the commander type. This is where you would normally hire a new commander, but yeah, this is not that story.

Hayate got his fold crystal from his dad. Who is a soldier and visited many planets. Speculation-loving viewers, start your engines!

I swear Roid and Keith take turns raising "totally a bad guy" flags. Last time it was Roid; now it was Keith. Keith is all DESTROY ALL HUMANS mode, Roid wants peace talks and has plans as to what to do after the war. Keith was proven right by the NUNS guy, though... but on the other hand more and more it seems like that Roid has something on his mind that Keith probably doesn't know about. A new wind across the galaxy? Hm.

So the king gets to live one more episode so he can go out with a bang. Also, seems like he's always had gray (silver) hair so it's not age...

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

Spoiler:

Honestly, considering that those ruins help give Windermere the ability to mind control whole planets, I think its reasonable to considering nuking those ruins. They are that great a threat.

Yeah, I mean it may just destroy the planet and all the people on it, but hey, the needs of the many...

Also: I know this is just lazy photoshopping, but still I choose to believe that Windermere has a cat on the ship.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Spoiler for ep 12:

The Sigur Valens can generate its own Fold Fault barrier like the Vajra. Just to show the Protoculture were Varjra fanboys. We've seen such technology on Ouroboros and perhaps with the Bird Human. There is a means to break through it the Fold Wave System and Fold Wave Resonance System from the YF-29 and YF-30. The VF-31 Seigfried as shown with Hayate and Messer resonating with Freyja and Kaname it is possible. LAI Super Fold Booster is another posibility but we've never seen it used on artificial Fold Faults.

So most likely the dimension barrier around Windemere is because of Sigur Valens. The MDE that hit Carlisle is most likely somebody messing with its systems.

Heinz's song took over the Al Shahal NUNS fleet.

Windermere two ship classes are variants of the ones Macross Galaxy uses. Makes you wonder if Macross Galaxy has links to Epsilon Foundation.

NUNS thinks by destroying the ruins on Ragna it can prevent Windermere's plan. Probably won't work as those things reach to the core. Lady M whom the NUNS reps doesn't know her looks manage to convince NUNS not to do it. I'm starting to suspect it's actually Maria Fokina Barnrose aka Therese Jenius to have that political pull. She saved Earth and the NUN from Lactence's plot in VF-X2 as leader of Vindirance. Staying separate from NUNS with Kaos while having the interests of the citizenry of the NUN.

Now it is Mirage's turn to be jelly. Unlike Sheryl and Ranka who are obvious in their affection for Alto, Mirage and Freyja are not and is just beginning to have those feelings. Of course Hayate wouldn't have a clue as they are keeping it to themselves. Freyja being a strong fold receptor may have felt Mirage's emotions a bit.

Gramia felt Ernest coming so just as they defolded Sigur Valens and fleet would fold to Ragna. Leaving the Macross Elysion.

On Kaos they are using the same type of ships as NUNS. Unlike SMS that uses Quarters on screen. Though SMS Ouroboros does use a a modified Northampton class the Gefion.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Spoiler for ep 12:

Now it is Mirage's turn to be jelly. Unlike Sheryl and Ranka who are obvious in their affection for Alto, Mirage and Freyja are not and is just beginning to have those feelings. Of course Hayate wouldn't have a clue as they are keeping it to themselves. Freyja being a strong fold receptor may have felt Mirage's emotions a bit.

Spoiler for ep 12:

Honestly, it looked more like Mirage's "jealousy" has more to do with her inferiority complex (towards both Hayate and Freyja) than any romantic feelings. She outright tells Hayate she's worried because she doesn't have his talent.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I guess the issue here is, where is the sympathy point?

As in, what is stopping the UN Spacy justifying the complete destruction of this young civilisation that is clearly suicidal and ignorant of what it means to lose this war they were declaring?

Planet eater bombs exist. They know it but declared war anyway. If that's the way they want to play then they get what's coming to them. Has this show at any point argued in any way to suggest that their civilisation is worth sparing?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

what is stopping the UN Spacy justifying the complete destruction

The fact that they don't have the means to do that right now, maybe? I think to remember they said as much at some point. The NUNS won't be sending forces from the other side of the Galaxy any time soon, which probably means this star system isn't all that important to them.

Has this show at any point argued in any way to suggest that their civilisation is worth sparing?

They don't have the luxury of talking about sparing anyone when you consider they're losing this war right now.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

They don't have the luxury of talking about sparing anyone when you consider they're losing this war right now.

I don't see it that way. This is just the delay between the UN Spacy deciding if crushing them is worth the trouble, and to actually do it. There is a delay, much like how Singapore was occupied by the Japanese in WW2. Consider the galactic scale we are dealing with I don't see this as any more than early skirmish.

The longer it drags on, the worse it is going to get for Windermere when the tide changes.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I guess the issue here is, where is the sympathy point?

As in, what is stopping the UN Spacy justifying the complete destruction of this young civilisation that is clearly suicidal and ignorant of what it means to lose this war they were declaring?

Planet eater bombs exist. They know it but declared war anyway. If that's the way they want to play then they get what's coming to them. Has this show at any point argued in any way to suggest that their civilisation is worth sparing?

Terrans were traumatized by an extinction event. Killing off an entire fellow human race would not sit right with them. This whole uplift of other races is in part to ensure the species survival.

While NUNS HQ does have a kill them all attitude in regard to Lost Zentradi fleets that threaten their fleets and colonies it is them not just messing around as they are in fact that dangerous. A rebel Zentradi influenced medium sized Lost Zentradi fleet with a recovered Boddole mobile fortress tried to invade Earth in 2047. The planet Sephira suffered a Lost Zentradi attack before they were repelled. Only Chlore's all Meltran fleet was successfully made treaty with all these incidences post Space War 1.

Windermere on the other hand had a small fleet. Nowhere near the numbers Al Shal had which was 40 ships. Macross 7 fleet had 188 combat capable vessels. The Varauta fleet which grew under the Protodevlin had 502 combat ships, the flagship designed as a small Zentradi fleet killer of around 1000 ships..

Windermere on screen doesn't seem to have more than a dozen ships of their own. Which probably made NUNS central make this a local problem.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

A local problem, yes. But it doesn't matter how local it seems, a local problem still needs to be crushed. I see this young and naive civilisation as being foolish about war, living in their ancient culture of limited and glorious battles that their ancestors used to have. Wars that were profitable, and do not threaten their very existence. And now they declared war and world domination.

The point isn't that they can't succeed. The point is they are trying to succeed. And for trying, they would get what's coming to them. Real war, war that their ancestors had never experienced.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Consider the galactic scale we are dealing with I don't see this as any more than early skirmish.

Actually, right in this episode it was made obvious that Windermere doesn't necessarily want to make this larger than it already is. It depends on who you ask, really - Keith is bloodthirsty, sure, but Roid seems very much ready for peace and whatnot as long as they can dictate the terms.

Plus, it's no secret that Windermere needs 1) Protoculture ruins, 2) a singer with special abilities. Without either, they're basically powerless. And their lives are very short. Basically, they're not a long-term, galaxy-scale threat.

And anyway, Windermere is protected by plot armor so they can't get close to it atm.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

A local problem, yes. But it doesn't matter how local it seems, a local problem still needs to be crushed. I see this young and naive civilisation as being foolish about war, living in their ancient culture of limited and glorious battles that their ancestors used to have. Wars that were profitable, and do not threaten their very existence. And now they declared war and world domination.

The point isn't that they can't succeed. The point is they are trying to succeed. And for trying, they would get what's coming to them. Real war, war that their ancestors had never experienced.

No one goes to war to teach lessons. That's a fantasy. Wars are fought for material gain. And NUNS isn't gonna spend thousands of trillions of whatever currency they have sending a fleet to that corner of the Galaxy if they have nothing substantial to gain out of it.

[Thess]

Spoiler for well this was interesting:

I hope with Mirage's promotion and declaring Hayate her rival, she can get character development.

Chaos trying to stop the NUNs from destroying Ragna ruins which could put in peril the whole planet, huh. Ernest talking about the Windermere king as an honest/straightforward guy. Also the NUN representative is such a Leon's clone. I laughed when I saw their meeting. What happened to subtlety? They and that Epsilon guy look like coming from how to make your villains for dummies 101.

Oh yeah, I forgot: Freyja wants to reach Heinz with her song to stop this.

[magnuskn]

Plot heavy episode. I'll have to wait for the subs to give a substantiated opinion.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Spoiler:

Interesting background stuff thanks to a TL anon.

Ernest Johnson was Gramia's instructor before the independence war. He left before the war started. He described him as full of pride for his people that he doesn't want help from outsiders. Gramia being the White Knight of Darwent is excellent at one on one duels but he sucks at fleet battles according to Ernest. Gramia on the other hand fondly remembers Ernest rarely loses a battle. 100 wins to 8 loses in his career.

So when he felt Ernest coming he went Nope in fighting him and jumped for Ragna.

This entire war is an unconventional one as Gramia knows they'll lose if they do so. His whole strategy is avoiding a decisive battle. Given that I find it believable he'd sacrifice Carlisle with an MDE as they would lose the war for independence.

[azarhal]

12 episodes in and Querule has been seen hanging with all the Walkures but Mikumo and haven't yet cuddled with Mirage outside of the OP.

I'm disappointed.