2011-04-08, 18:12 | Link #1061 | |||
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
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Hm...not really sure if it's a good idea to add to the discussion of the 'romance'... but I guess I'll give it a go...
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p.s. For the above, I'm putting aside what Alto actually feels wrt Sheryl and Ranka, cos I'm sure people can still debate that til the end of time. To be honest, I think we're spending too much time on the ******** triangle. Alto's character arc has at least as much to do with his changing feelings about Frontier as with his relationships with the two girls, if not more.
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2011-04-08, 18:35 | Link #1062 | |
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After the fight shown between Ozma and Alto, but there is a timeskip sweetheart. And Alto also didn't show that he was having a easy time admitting that Sheryl was dying or allowing her to continue to sing. Also you seem to think that what happens to Alto's home town shouldn't bother him. Like the watching his best friend being gutted should be easy. And I'm sorry but I wonder where that kind of logic comes from. And we can't say there hasn't been a Vajra attack because there very well may have been another one. The state of one's home does way heavy one's conscious and I imagine it would be especially so if they were a part of the armed forces who were supposed to protect their home. Having lived in NYC during 09/11 I can happily vouch for that stressfulness. Alto's life has done a complete 180 I don't quite understand what part of that isn't stressful. The complete change in narrative to a much darker tone disagrees with you as well. Also in your previous post you acted as though Alto deciding to kill Ranka was an easy decision and for that comment I wonder if you were actually thinking before you wrote it. Ranka is Alto's friend and even if he isn't romantically attracted to her, for your friend who for all you know could have defected to the enemy, and might end up being used against you when you meet up again. Especially right after the death of his best friend, and the hospitalization of another one. The next episode is just icing to the cake that is Alto's stress post episode 21. See that's just the thing Ozma's predicament is very different, as Ranka's is Ozma's adopted sister, but then again even he understood the reason why Alto didn't go with him, and didn't even imply that Alto was having it easy. For Ozma its easy, Ozma never second guesses himself, in fact he knows exactly what he wants to do. Ditto for Ranka who wasn't shown to have any problems while sitting in the ship with Brera (who had been antagonistic towards Alto beforehand). Also Ranka was never manipulated she was asked several times if she was okay they were making and Ranka in order to gain Alto's affection (who has no idea that she has problems with it because she didn't tell him) said "yes" or she just never voiced her opinion at all. You can't fault other characters for that because Ranka is the one who ultimately made the decision at the end of the day. She wasn't dragged into anything no one held a gun to her head, they just asked her privately (once mind you) and left her alone to make the decision for herself. Also the solution she came with was after the fact. She gave a totally different reason in episode 21. That's why I don't factor in the next episode, its the equivalent of someone deciding to go somewhere or do something because of one reason and then at a later date (read: when they know more and not only have had time to think but now have their feelings sorted out) looking back and saying differently. You can't say they did X because of their new reason because simply not what happened at the time they did it. People can change their reasons for doing something but it doesn't change their initial reason. I'm not saying that Ranka has it easy at this point in time, but neither does Alto or Sheryl or Klan Klan or Luca or Nanase, because the world as they know it has changed. You can't just use the reason a character created at a later date (especially when they didn't have the information then). Ah yeah and it was so smart for her to leave only to fall right into Grace's trap. When you look at things in hindsight you gotta first look take into account what the characters know when the scene happens. Just attributing the information revealed in later episodes to what happened in the previous episodes is futile, because then you know more than that character. Also if you have to completely and totally ignore events in order to make Ranka look better, and other characters look bad then maybe you re-evaluate why you liked the character in the first place. Cause it makes you seem like a Ranka fanboy with selective memory when it comes to her. |
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2011-04-08, 19:38 | Link #1066 | ||||||
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Spoiler for The one under the hammer:
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2011-04-08, 19:56 | Link #1067 | ||||||
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2011-04-08, 20:40 | Link #1068 | |||
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- He is one of the survivor of the research fleet being attacked by the Vajra - At the beginning Ozma lost his Wingman who was later replaced by Alto - His Sister is getting into a prepubert phase - He asked Alto to take care of Ranka while he can't and the only thing he sees is that he gets in conflict with Brera and furthermore he is the one who is being defended by Ranka. - His sister is also being marked a traitor because she left the fleet - He is being hunted down by Leon and his consorts - He has to fight his own men who skipped side when SMS hijacked the Quarter Do you really think he does not know/understand what is going on in Altos personal life? Quote:
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My intention is not to make Ranka innocent, because she is not fully innocent. I agree on this. However I see it as wrong that she is responsible to protect the fleet only because there are too many other executive organisations who bear this responsibility and because it is their job to protect the fleet. And only because I am of this opinion it still does not make me a fanboy of her. I already named who I would follow more and that is Ozma and the SMS crew. And Ozma also shares the same opinion that Ranka is not the fleets human shield.
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Last edited by Father Hentai; 2011-04-08 at 20:59. |
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2011-04-08, 21:07 | Link #1069 | ||||
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- Ozma is originally from Frontier, he was called in to protect the research fleet but it wasn't his home - He got over Ranka growing up earlier on the series - I don't think he fully expected for Alto to be able to take care of Ranka on his own - At that point in time Ranka wasn't named a traitor to the fleet, but again he doesn't wasn't shown to be bothered by it - the only person who went against Ozma was Alto, and even then Ozma wasn't bothered by it - he was never shown to be hunted at all in fact no one stopped tried to stop SMS from leaving but Alto, they simply don't have the resources for that of all your points only one of them holds any truth to it, and even then his personal relationship with Ozma is unknown. So yeah I keep my statement Ozma does not understand what is going through, partly because they haven't spoken to each other in many episodes, and partly because some of the things that bother Ozma do not bother Alto, their worries are totally different. Quote:
Umm, what are you talking about Ranka never even tried to say no or ask about Elmo, at any point in time. Your habit concerning Ranka is rearing its ugly head again. Quote:
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2011-04-08, 21:57 | Link #1070 | ||||
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I am making a cut here as well. I think it does not make any sense to continue this because your words does not convince me fully and vice versa in some points.
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2011-04-08, 23:02 | Link #1071 | |||||
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Ranka was in over her head from the get-go when she decided to become the pillar of strength for Frontier as well as their symbol of Hope just to impress the guy that she liked. And while I can pity her, I can't say its not her fault because she did make the conscious decision even if it was one made without much serious thought. I understand that you like her but trying to white wash what happened and pin the blame on other characters doesn't validate your point. Quote:
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2011-04-09, 03:49 | Link #1072 | |
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Well, I go to sleep and a huge page of discussion spawns. Tsk.
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---- Anyway, on to episode 22. - While I found Leon to be a patsy for Grace in most parts, at least he was one who had his own plans and not a total moron. - Lucas commentary and the report we got before the credits show exactly in what tight situation Frontier is: They have three months left and they cannot let any Vajra they encounter let get back information to the main Vajra hives. - Well, I can't say that Luca stands for the general perception of Ranka in the fleet, but he also is a friend of hers. If he thinks of her as a traitor, then he is not the only one. Alto is still conflicted at this point. - I still find it amusing that the scientists with Luca can immediately trace the fold energy back to Sheryls TV appearance, but then again it is the Macross universe, where music can move worlds. - Bobby getting teary-eyed always gets me all emotional, too. I think the "adult three" would have made an excellent storyline all by themselves. It's one of the great strengths of Macross Frontier that the so many of the supporting characters, even without having a detailed storyline, were so compelling. It helped immensely with getting immersed into the overall story. - And here with the Klan/Alto conversation we get another piece of the quite obvious and important arc of Altos friends pushing him to make a decision with his feelings. Y'know, the obvious and important arc the writers in the end ignored so that they did not have to have Ranka be the obvious loser of the triangle. - Rankas letter to Ozma proves, btw., that she did premeditate her departure from Frontier, just to put the final nail into the coffin of that old debate. It also proves that the reason she gave Alto ( escorting Ai-kun ) was only part of why she left. However, there is still no indication that she knew that leaving Frontier would draw away the Vajra. Which, uh, it didn't, as shown in the very beginning of the episode. - Ouch, Sheryl is not pulling back punches on Luca. But, yeah, he kinda deserves it for not even trying to show some empathy for her situation. - And Leon may be a manipulative bastard, but he is right here that Sheryl can help with the survival of Frontier. And, yes, mankind. - And Sheryl does get it. Her thoughts are made very clear: They are for the victims and the relatives of those. Not for herself, but for others. - Hrmh, I know the dramatic appeal of having Sheryl collapse, but she was just beginning to show a radiant smile... I would also have liked to see how the conversation would have gone if she wouldn't have collapsed. - Wow. I guess I never really took in the THORA translation for the scene at Altos house. It works much better than the one I had back then from gg. From Sheryl saying "I realized that singing is all I have to give", which shows once again how much of herself she is giving to others, from the dialogue bringing it out much better that she tried to spare Alto rather subconciously, to Alto saying "You don't have to force those smiles in front of me anymore", which says so much more about how he perceives Sheryls situation, before she shows him that she is not in the same situation as his mother was. It really is a beautifully done scene. The characters learn so much about another in just a few minutes. - Hm. I still wonder a bit how much Ranka felt in that obvious fold transmission between her and Sheryl of what was going on in Saotome mansion? - To stir the old debate again: Yeah, I definitely think that Sheryl and Alto made love. - Yaaarh, Captain Wilder and his space pirates! - Yeah, and buzz off to that suggestion that Alto has it so easy with his decisions now that Ranka is gone. If the scene at the end doesn't show that he had been going stir-crazy with his inner conflicts, which isn't something he completely resolves until the end of next episode, then I don't know what else can do it.
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2011-04-09, 06:36 | Link #1073 | |
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"I'd like to work with Elmo-san and the others like I used to-" <- Ranka, 5:51 min The rest is a matter of interpretation. Looking at the complete conversation she really did not had a chance to say no because Grace wrapped everything like a sealed contract. And going back to Grace "hacking ability". Watch episode 17 5:45 min.
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2011-04-09, 07:18 | Link #1076 | |
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Her regressive behaviour in episode in episode sixteen signaled the decision of the writers to reverse her character growth from the preceding four episodes.
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2011-04-09, 07:53 | Link #1077 | |
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2011-04-09, 10:15 | Link #1078 | |
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Personality-wise, I think Ranka is spirted enough to voice her disagreement on an issue if she held an opinion on it that she felt worth voicing. After all, look at what happened when Ozma told her to give up on becoming a singer and to stop skipping school... she told him "no", punctuated with a thrown knife. Her mild protest in episode 16 is little more than a polite afterthought about Elmo and Sheryl's situation, given that the deal has been made and the deed has been done. |
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2011-04-09, 10:36 | Link #1079 | |
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2011-04-09, 11:38 | Link #1080 |
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Regarding Ranka, I think to a large degree she just couldn’t handle the pressure. I’m not really about to condemn her for that, but on the other hand I tend to prefer characters like Sheryl who show the strength to overcome.
It’s possible she had some vague idea that she could help settle things, but if she did I think it was more on a subconscious level than a conscious one, so I can’t say I think her decision at the end of last episode was particularly wise. Now on to Episode 22: Regarding Magnus’ comments on Sheryl doing things for others rather than herself… I don’t want to cheapen what she’s doing because I think it’s very admirable, but I actually think she’s getting something out of it as well. She’s getting a purpose, and that’s something she desperately needs at this point in the story. I think Sheryl needed to sing in that shelter last episode just as much as the people in that shelter needed to hear her sing. Say what you will about Leon in comparison to Grace, but he sure knows how to be an effective demagogue. I have some mixed feelings about the confrontation between the SMS members. I really like how dramatic that sequence is. However, it also gives the impression that Alto lost to Ozma because he wasn’t certain of his purpose. Alto just promised Sheryl that he would stay with her to the end. I dislike the show implying that he's uncertain of his purpose so soon after doing that. There’s more I could say about my thoughts for this episode, but I don’t want to bury the important points in too many minor ones. I might say more later. |
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macross frontier, re-watch |
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