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deadsea · 2013-10-25, 17:43

It was her fault at first, she tlls QB about madoka and old system
does everybody is alive in this world ?

Triple_R · 2013-10-25, 17:44

Well, the concept of Homura wanting to save Madoka (at least as Homura perceives it) by restoring Madoka to normal humanity (and then taking Madoka's ascended spot for her) is not necessarily a bad one. A lot would depend on the execution. Sadly, it sounds like the execution had some issues.

Kazu-kun · 2013-10-25, 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadsea

It was her fault at first, she tlls QB about madoka and old system

Well, she fucked up there, but she wasn't doing anything wrong. QB's just evil. If there's someone really evil in the story is him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadsea

does everybody is alive in this world ?

Apparently. Even Sayaka gets to stay alive in Homukami's world, I think.

1337_haxor · 2013-10-25, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, the concept of Homura wanting to save Madoka (at least as Homura perceives it) by restoring Madoka to normal humanity (and then taking Madoka's ascended spot for her) is not necessarily a bad one. A lot would depend on the execution. Sadly, it sounds like the execution had some issues.

They need to create a scenario where a new cast can thrive and for that they need a major goal.

Turning Homura into an evill goddess who suppresses Madoka's good ones allow for the next cast to oppose a defined threat rather than the vague universal cool down or a race of emotionless aliens.

QB took his last gamble and failed, the next series will deconstruct the concepts of Sailor Moon were a former super heroine fell to darkness and the new one must rise to free her from her suffering.

Kazu-kun · 2013-10-25, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1337_haxor

QB took his last gamble and failed, the next series will deconstruct the concepts of Sailor Moon were a former super heroine fell to darkness and the new one must rise to free her from her suffering.

They're not deconstructing anything with that plot. You can see it even in Precure.

LightDragonman · 2013-10-25, 18:01

I guess we will have to wait till we see the film to judge if the execution was good or not.

Hopefully, it is at least better than Eva 3.0's.

1337_haxor · 2013-10-25, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

I guess we will have to wait till we see the film to judge if the execution was good or not.

Hopefully, it is at least better than Eva 3.0's.

Unquestionably it will be more profitable.

Kazu-kun · 2013-10-25, 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

I guess we will have to wait till we see the film to judge if the execution was good or not.

What do you mean by "execution"?

LightDragonman · 2013-10-25, 18:08

I mean in terms of how well it managed to pull it off. Like, does it feel believable, was it character-driven or plot-driven, is the writing strong enough to carry it through, etc.

And how exactly is it gonna be more profitable than 3.0?

Kazu-kun · 2013-10-25, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

I mean in terms of how well it managed to pull it off. Like, does it feel believable, was it character-driven or plot-driven, is the writing strong enough to carry it through, etc.

Of course it doesn't feel believable. I mean, the movie is okay I guess, though a few things don't make much sense (like stopping witchification using technology, trapping Madokami inside Homura's sould gem, etc). The real issue is what happens in the epilogue. That's totally bonkers. Homura's characterization is pushed to the extremes (in a bad way) and the whole ending of the tv series is basically retconned. And this all happens in the freaking epilogue, when the movie is basically over already.

LightDragonman · 2013-10-25, 18:18

So, can you say again how the ending was retconned?

Kazu-kun · 2013-10-25, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

So, can you say again how the ending was retconned?

I'm talking figuratively. It wasn't really retconned. It just feels that what was achieved in the tv series was pointless.

LightDragonman · 2013-10-25, 18:26

Starting to sound a lot like 3.0 in that regards.

I'll have to see it if it delivered better than that film.

woxx · 2013-10-25, 18:30

Madokami's world (that was in episode 12.) was broken by incubators.
In Homura's world incubators are under control.
We have to watch to understand more.

1337_haxor · 2013-10-25, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I'm talking figuratively. It wasn't really retconned. It just feels that what was achieved in the tv series was pointless.

It's Urobuchi we are talking about not to mention this sequel wasn't planned in advance.

What did you expect, the original series was projected to wrap up around Madoka becoming a goddess and saving everyone at the cost of losing her physical existence and being apart from Homura until the latter's death.

The sequel couldn't happen in an universe where all conflicts were already solved so they had to create a 3rd universe with a conflict between Homura and Madoka on a cosmic scale.

Besides the theme of individual happiness versus collective happiness was Urobuchi's life conflict which is now being places spicitly in his most proeminent work.

Kazu-kun · 2013-10-25, 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1337_haxor

The sequel couldn't happen in an universe where all conflicts were already solved so they had to create a 3rd universe with a conflict between Homura and Madoka on a cosmic scale.

They could have come up with new conflicts. This was unnecessary imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1337_haxor

Besides the theme of individual happiness versus collective happiness was Urobuchi's life conflict which is now being places spicitly in his most proeminent work.

The problems with these sort of themes is that they don't really have answers, so the stories exploring this usually end up with anticlimactic endings that don't really amount to anything, or cheap ones that give easy but pointless answers.

Triple_R · 2013-10-25, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1337_haxor

They need to create a scenario where a new cast can thrive and for that they need a major goal.

Turning Homura into an evill goddess who suppresses Madoka's good ones allow for the next cast to oppose a defined threat rather than the vague universal cool down or a race of emotionless aliens.

I do think that Madoka Magica is at the point where it would benefit from a more conventional straight-up fighting villain that's very powerful. I'm not sure how I feel about Homura becoming that villain, but perhaps they could make it work.

Sailor Galaxia with the look and style of Rozen Maiden's Suigintou. Could be a great villain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1337_haxor

Unquestionably it will be more profitable.

Madoka Magica is big, but NGE is still bigger. Let's not get carried away here, lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Of course it doesn't feel believable. I mean, the movie is okay I guess, though a few things don't make much sense (like stopping witchification using technology, trapping Madokami inside Homura's sould gem, etc).

Well, it is magic. And I could see the Incubators being big enough dicks to only pull out the "stop witchification technology" when it serves their purposes. And I've read some good comic books with very similar stories.

I'm willing to let a lot slide with this show on the basic "suspension of disbelief" side. The key for me is simply liking how it handles the characters, and if its a good, emotionally satisfying/thought-provoking story.

Quote:

The real issue is what happens in the epilogue. That's totally bonkers. Homura's characterization is pushed to the extremes (in a bad way) and the whole ending of the tv series is basically retconned. And this all happens in the freaking epilogue, when the movie is basically over already.

By "epilogue" do you mean "after the credits roll"? Because if so, that's pretty wild, lol.

Kazu-kun · 2013-10-25, 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

By "epilogue" do you mean "after the credits roll"? Because if so, that's pretty wild, lol.

Lol not after the credit. I said epilogue because the main conflict of the movie has being resolved by that point. Madoka has been saved and is a goddess again and the world has being restored. For all intense and purpose, what comes after that is epilogue.

Triple_R · 2013-10-25, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Lol not after the credit. I said epilogue because the main conflict of the movie has being resolved by that point. Madoka has been saved and is a goddess again and the world has being restored. For all intense and purpose, what comes after that is epilogue.

lol... I get the sense that poor Gen wants to write a happy ending, but just can't bring himself to do it. So he keeps throwing out these epilogues that makes things look much darker after all (in the original TV series, Homura with the wicked wings fighting demons in the desert had some wondering if the world was now in a post-apocalyptic stage).

ChronoReverse · 2013-10-25, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Lol not after the credit. I said epilogue because the main conflict of the movie has being resolved by that point. Madoka has been saved and is a goddess again and the world has being restored. For all intense and purpose, what comes after that is epilogue.

Sounds like they had two ideas for a third movie, tried to do both and ended up not doing as well as they could have if they had just stuck with one =/

2013-10-25, 17:43	Link #281
deadsea Member Join Date: Apr 2011	It was her fault at first, she tlls QB about madoka and old system does everybody is alive in this world ? __________________

2013-10-25, 17:44	Link #282
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	Well, the concept of Homura wanting to save Madoka (at least as Homura perceives it) by restoring Madoka to normal humanity (and then taking Madoka's ascended spot for her) is not necessarily a bad one. A lot would depend on the execution. Sadly, it sounds like the execution had some issues. __________________

2013-10-25, 18:01	Link #286
LightDragonman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	I guess we will have to wait till we see the film to judge if the execution was good or not. Hopefully, it is at least better than Eva 3.0's.

2013-10-25, 18:08	Link #289
LightDragonman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	I mean in terms of how well it managed to pull it off. Like, does it feel believable, was it character-driven or plot-driven, is the writing strong enough to carry it through, etc. And how exactly is it gonna be more profitable than 3.0?

2013-10-25, 18:18	Link #291
LightDragonman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	So, can you say again how the ending was retconned?

2013-10-25, 18:26	Link #293
LightDragonman Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2013	Starting to sound a lot like 3.0 in that regards. I'll have to see it if it delivered better than that film.

2013-10-25, 18:30	Link #294
woxx Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: eastern europe :(	Madokami's world (that was in episode 12.) was broken by incubators. In Homura's world incubators are under control. We have to watch to understand more.