Out of Context Content Skewed - Vampire Bund, Himari & More

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

KIDSEXCHANGE

Will I go to prison for not adding spaces between those words?

Originally Posted by Izayoi

Things like this makes me very very very afraid.... NO MORE LOLICON GENRE?! FBI IN MY HOUSE? OH NOES!

Need to burn your computers before they come! imo.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Technically, yeah -- the precedent now exists (or rather that the law wasn't fully challenged) that stick figures may or may not be illegal depending on how you labeled them or what you thought you were drawing. :P

Ah yes, the worst possibility is what a precedent could do as it gets more and more arbitrary.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Youtube has always had a quite strict content policy that is selectively enforced. When FUNi first started throwing content up there, Youtube kept removing episodes because a character lacking clothing or there was a panty shot or something silly and perfectly harmless.



Except the Handley case really wasn't a violation of any of these.
And what he had is so far removed from the mainstream that it really does not apply to anything else.

YouTube is needs to add a few "I am over the age of xx" and allow something to be posted, lol.

And yeah, he really was into a niche genre. When I first heard about it, I thought he bought simple stuff with HS kids doing what HS kid shouldn't be doing...but he wasn't.

It was funny that he got in trouble from a random search.

Originally Posted by bayoab

If the content doesn't pass the miller test, then it doesn't really matter if the content is drawn though. The USPS regulations deal with "obscenity", not "pornography". (Note: I never actually followed the case until it was brought up as being relevant to Vampire Bund censoring... which it wasn't at all.)

The thing is that "obscenity" is so obscure it can be applied to anything - it's opinionated.

I figured if I put anime titles, I may attract more people here,

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Need to burn your computers before they come! imo.

You'll need a super magnet, then a thick drill bit to drill holes before burning it, lol.

[Nightbat®]

What's even more hypocrit is that Adsense will drop sponsorship to sites containing 'mature content'

UNLESS they generate enough revenue

Makes me bloody puke!

[Draneor]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

The thing is that "obscenity" is so obscure it can be applied to anything - it's opinionated.

Theoretically, sure. However, it's expensive to bring a case to trial and the state has limited resources. You're not going to be charged for buying something like To-Loveる when there are those out there that buy manga involving toddlers getting raped by animals (i.e., an example of what actually got Handley in trouble).

Remember. The state needs to convince a jury that this stuff is obscene per the the Miller Test. It has to be pretty blatant to pass. One could easily argue Vampire Bund, Omamori Himari and Kaichou wa maid-sama have artistic and/or literary value, and thus fail the Miller Test.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Draneor

Theoretically, sure. However, it's expensive to bring a case to trial and the state has limited resources. You're not going to be charged for buying something like To-Loveる when there are those out there that buy manga involving toddlers getting raped by animals (i.e., an example of what actually got Handley in trouble).

Remember. The state needs to convince a jury that this stuff is obscene per the the Miller Test. It has to be pretty blatant to pass. One could easily argue Vampire Bund, Omamori Himari and Kaichou wa maid-sama have artistic and/or literary value, and thus fail the Miller Test.

Problem: the US overruns with prosecutors and politicians looking towards re-elections. This drives many frivolous nasty prosecutions (like the many underage teens being charged with child pornography for texting images of themselves to each other, remember under-age varies within the US). Being able to "burn a witch" proves to your voter base that you are worthy of re-election or re-appointment. These factors seriously warp the playing field and logic leaves quietly out the back exit.

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by bayoab

If the content doesn't pass the miller test, then it doesn't really matter if the content is drawn though. The USPS regulations deal with "obscenity", not "pornography". (Note: I never actually followed the case until it was brought up as being relevant to Vampire Bund censoring... which it wasn't at all.)

I'm actually writing a research essay for class about the Handley case and obscenity law, so I looked a bunch of this stuff up.

Aside from the Miller Test, probably the biggest thing in the Handley case was 18 USC 1466A "Obscene visual representations of the sexual abuse of children," which you can read here.

Some quotes (emphasis added). I'll let them speak for themselves:

a) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic [insert long list of various sexual situations] and;
b) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;

Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly possesses a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting, that [insert same criteria]

(c) Nonrequired Element of Offense.— It is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exist.

the term “visual depiction” includes undeveloped film and videotape, and data stored on a computer disk or by electronic means which is capable of conversion into a visual image, and also includes any photograph, film, video, picture, digital image or picture, computer image or picture, or computer generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means;

1466A references another section which outlines the penalties for committing any of these offenses. For owning a lolicon manga you could serve "not less than 5 and not more than 20 years" in federal prison. If it's not your first offense you get at least 15.

1446A came in response to the Ashcroft decision which in turn came in response to the CPPA (Child Pornography Prevention Act) of 1996 which is almost as chilling to read as 1446A. It's extremely technophobic, citing the frightening abilities of computers to produce images "virtually indistinguishable" from real pictures of children, and it too states that no real child has to be involved at all.

When Free Speech Union v. Ashcroft overturned CPPA, it meant that virtual depictions were no longer prosecuted as child pornography, but by Miller they were still illegal, and what 1446A did was basically say, "Okay, they're not child pornography anymore, but they still get the same penalties as child pornography."

It makes me extremely sad that these are actually part of United States law and that most people couldn't care less about it, or even support it. As for "serious artistic, literary, political, or scientific value," lots of people seem to think this legitimizes stuff like Miller. If you ask me, freedom of speech means you're as free to say worthless things as you are to say valuable things, and the government (or courts or juries) is not an art/literary critic.

There is no reason people should only be allowed to say things with government-approved merit. The wheat comes with the chaff; it's all or nothing, and when you start drawing arbitrary and subjective lines, you're just going to start slipping down that slope... and if you ask me, people freaking out, throwing out their manga, and taking down material from their sites that might not even come under Miller is a clear indication that that's already happening. People start getting scared over this vaguely worded law that carries disproportionately severe penalties, and they get rid of their stuff that doesn't even cross the current line. Which just means there's room for the line to move back a bit... and back a bit...

For now we've just got to support organizations like the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund and hope we don't lose our freedom of speech all too quickly.

Further reading:
http://www.tcj.com/news/christopher-...nts-on-his-cas
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/1...ky-speech.html
http://comipress.com/special/miscell...-viewing-manga
Richards, David A. J. “Free Speech and Obscenity Law: Toward a Moral Theory of the First Amendment.” University of Pennsylvania Law Review 123.1 Nov., 1974: 45-91.

[NinjaYali]

So after mfox had it's brief run in with it's sponsors and were forced to take down some of it's manga (including Okami Kakushi which has been reuploaded now)

OneM as you have heard of late is conducting it's own 'sweep of all mature series on the site to look for and remove images that are deemed pornographic.'

And of course this has vexed me that it seems to have led to the unfortunate and hopefully brief removal of one of my favourites Historie. Which mind you isn't really pornographic at all since it only has what one scene in the last 20 chapters. I'm wondering what this will lead to. Reuploaded manga with one or two pages removed?

But enough of my vexation, I'm personally wondering what's the point of this blitz since they usually had warning signs up anyhow and for another thing I'm not deluding myself that those little signs on any sites are going to do anything. Like it or not, some 14 year old kid is going to ignore them and look anyway and even if 'pornography' gets taken down you can still find many sources.

Although above all I understand this comes down to credibility for onemanga and a attempt to create a safer site for younger viewers. For appearance's sake it makes sense but if that's the worry of possible parents they're merely cracking the smallest egg in the box of a dozen. And really, there are something called adult filter software. Use them.

So what do you think?

[james0246]

First of all, technically, we are not supposed to mention any website (by name) nor link to any website that hosts or distributes American licensed material. So, you might want to change the title, and subsequent mentioned website, to OM, which is the standard abbreviation in this forum for that website.

Secondly, despite the specificity of your OP, there is already a thread (possibly several) dedicated to this problem/movement: Out of Context Content Skewed - Vampire Bund, Himari & More.

That being said, yes it is a shame that websites have started self-censoring their materials for fear of reprisal...

[Vexx]

The modern secular "burn the witches" phenomenom of "think of the children" (and watch that creeping definition of what a "child" is) seems to be as damaging as any religious persecution poppycock.

But be sure and read the forum rules before providing names or links to any place that hosts material licensed for R1 or (US/Canada) without copyright approval.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by NinjaYali

But enough of my vexation, I'm personally wondering what's the point of this blitz since they usually had warning signs up anyhow and for another thing I'm not deluding myself that those little signs on any sites are going to do anything. Like it or not, some 14 year old kid is going to ignore them and look anyway and even if 'pornography' gets taken down you can still find many sources.

It isn't about warning signs or actual filtering. It's about the TOS for the banner ads they run. Many banner ad networks forbid running along side any adult content (or copyright infringing material for that matter). That's all there is to this.

[Equidistant]

Originally Posted by bayoab

It isn't about warning signs or actual filtering. It's about the TOS for the banner ads they run. Many banner ad networks forbid running along side any adult content (or copyright infringing material for that matter). That's all there is to this.

Well it would seem these advertisers are fine with copyrighted material, and I believe they're fine with adult content as well so long as the site generates a lot of page hits.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by bayoab

It isn't about warning signs or actual filtering. It's about the TOS for the banner ads they run. Many banner ad networks forbid running along side any adult content (or copyright infringing material for that matter). That's all there is to this.

That is exactly what has brought on the recent onslaught seen on various site. Once the advertiser who provides you with money says "I don't like that stuff" they say "Okay, we'll take it down" and that is what. It's all about one thing really:

And the recent advertiser awareness is brought on by the skewed views and the recent trial of one radical who does not represent this media format however has created a precedent which large companies are trying to avoid getting involved with.

[tyciol]

Originally Posted by bayoab

the Handley case really wasn't a violation of any of these.
And what he had is so far removed from the mainstream that it really does not apply to anything else.

Oh really? The law used against him is merely obscenity. Obscenity was also filed against 'Legend of the Overfiend'.

It is a very slippery slope. We know there are people offended by a great deal of things. Say for example, the hospital scene in the Evangelion movie which involves a non-consensual erotic scene between two minors.

Or, going mainstream, Sailor Moon is a popular franchise, Venus and Uranus are a very popular yuri pairing. They're also both 17. Just how much could I draw these lovers doing before it is illegal?

They may start with more extreme things but the law already allows them to pursue this far if they wish. They may already have, and it simply hasn't made the papers. The very possibility is horrifying.

[roriconfan]

If you don't like it, don't read it.

If you are offended, critisize it.

If you want to cancel it for the sake of the children, ask them if they care to miss all the fun first.

If you don't care about what the target audience or the children think about it, then you are doing it for yourself and not for the sake of the world.

If you read things you don't like or are offended by a format which is purely selective, optional, age advisory included, not globaly thrown at everyone, and are willing to do things to destroy it without even asking the target audience if they want that or if the children even care about it...
... then sir, you are an arse.