(CR) Shokugeki no Souma: San no Sara (season 3)

[rladls2121]

About the three unfair judges, things really intrigues me that why they didn't push the button to vote for Eizan before they ate Souma's cooked food.

These kinds of judges has pride after all, if they push the button first, and then eat Souma's food, they'll might even sink lower.
The other two besides the middle one decided to eat Souma's food first because the smell of the food itself is already influencing them.
And since after they ate it, they realized the taste of the food was too valuable to get rid off.

Souma was seducing and threatening those judges with his food as in, "Leave me, my friends, and the dorm as it is or you won't be eating these kinds of food ever again".

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Dextro

But isn't Souma's overwhelming power of food over everything else that makes this show fun? Instead of nakama power we have foodgasms turning bad guys into good ones. At least that's different.

In Yakitate Japan, food could turn you into a dam.

[Mister Twit]

Finally some actual cooking. I don't care about the animation quality, anything is better than having to sit through another episode like the last few.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dextro

As for it feeling rushed yeah, it did feel like the shokugeki moved a bit too fast but how much more time with Eizen and the judges badmouthing Souma do we want to have? I'm actually glad we got this over with quickly. If they dragged this scenario out it would probably just feel increasingly tiresome and boring. Now maybe we can get the plot moving somewhere interesting.

That's what made this episode not that enjoyable for me: the overall execution is lackluster. The episode is rushed and boring at the same time. Rushed since both you and me can feel how fast things go by and the finer details weren't done well. But it's also boring because we see points being repeated and there's nothing really unique in the episode itself. Heck, even the foodgasm is stock and tame without any good twist. Certainly not Shokugeki-worthy for me. (the foodgasm in Ep.1 S1 is better by comparison). And no, Eizan's face contortion does not do it for me. In addition, the subpar animation is like the icing on the overall "meh"-cake. The whole episode is like watching someone who is anemic but is forced to double-time his job and stumbles in the process .

[BWTraveller]

After this ep I think I get a better feel for the difference between Senzaemon's Tootsuki and Azami's vision. Old Tootsuki was not meant to be a "typical" culinary education. The entire concept is taking a field's education system and asking what would happen if you threw everything you knew about "how it's done" and just tried to come up with a path that would bring about the most growth and innovation. Arguing that "this is complete absurdity according to the standards of how people are trained" is a pointless argument, because that's the entire point: abandoning the old path and coming up with a different way to go about things. And the path created is not, has never been meant to produce an army of qualified chefs. It's meant to produce a handful of carefully refined geniuses whose skills in their personal expertise has been expanded by their knowledge and exposure to countless others and at the same time honed by forcing it to compete against them, forcing a guy who makes Italian to come up with Italian dishes that can face down dishes from other schools and styles, even when forced to fight by their rules. Indeed, if you're trying to come up with a school that will allow an average person to become a moderately-accomplished chef, you're screwed. But if you're trying to come up with something that will turn a few people into brilliant gems while helping the rest to polish themselves beyond their limits before moving on to more traditional venues, that's a different story. This story. And Azami's basically trying to destroy that and replace it with something that superficially resembles the real world but is tweaked to forbid innovation completely. Even those who drop out of Tootsuki after a year or two would have some benefit from the exposure to a broad world and the constant push to rise higher. They'd still know that drive to innovate and see beyond what they currently have. Azami's school will produce a handful of fine craftsmen who create fine works of art within a single art genre/style, while pumping out hordes of "artists" who are unable to do anything but make carbon copies of their betters' work, over and over.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Arguing that "this is complete absurdity according to the standards of how people are trained" is a pointless argument, because that's the entire point: abandoning the old path and coming up with a different way to go about things. And the path created is not, has never been meant to produce an army of qualified chefs. It's meant to produce a handful of carefully refined geniuses whose skills in their personal expertise has been expanded by their knowledge and exposure to countless others and at the same time honed by forcing it to compete against them, forcing a guy who makes Italian to come up with Italian dishes that can face down dishes from other schools and styles, even when forced to fight by their rules.

Yes, but at the end of the day, it "works" for the same reason Kenichi became a top martial artist instead of a cripple: because it's just a work of fiction. Saying it's absurd is just another way of saying my disbelief isn't quite suspended. It was mostly fine before Azami drew attention to it.

[grecefar]

Wel, I'm glad that battle is over, was getting anoyed by it, best part was soma shh to the judge to shut him up.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, but at the end of the day, it "works" for the same reason Kenichi became a top martial artist instead of a cripple: because it's just a work of fiction. Saying it's absurd is just another way of saying my disbelief isn't quite suspended. It was mostly fine before Azami drew attention to it.

Of course it's fiction and therefore far-fetched (though I still remain a little uncertain how much it's "far-fetched" and not just "totally different from the way it's been done until now"); my point all along was that more than anything else Azami's "alternative" is legitimately dystopian for the culinary world, deliberately eliminating any creativity and making sure that the culinary world is divided into two sections, the "elite" who get to eat new, unique dishes that continue to fit within a single person's view of "gourmet cuisine" and the "rabble" who are forced to eat and make imitations of this cuisine. Complete indoctrination of the most famous culinary school in the world, and in the hands of someone with a sufficient level of power and strategic intellect this fame and prestige can be used to further control the culinary world beyond the one school.

And seriously, I doubt that Tootsuki would have a "bad" impact on a student who failed to make it all the way. They'd still have years training in their own style while observing and examining others and sharing ideas, not to mention an exposure to the level of pressure their employers likely experience and that they will likely experience if they make it high enough, thus helping their perspective. If they spend some time in there, they benefit from a unique environment designed to refine high-level chefs that can be utilized well, and if they make it all the way then they'll have proven themselves to be among the most skilled chefs in the world, able to gain the approval of teachers and judgers with the highest of skill.

Erina's commentary is key. In Azami's world, anyone who brought anything that didn't follow the guidelines Erina had been trained to give would have their work summarily discarded and be forced to start over and do it "right", but in Polar Star Erina is finding herself in the presence of people to whom she would give her "expert" but still indoctrinated culinary judgment, and who respond by completely ignoring or even defying her instructions to produce something that's far better than she thinks it should possibly be.

It's sort of like how some people are recommending changes to the modern school system, departing from the rote memorization and strict system that's been used supposedly since the days of the Industrial Revolution when things were much different, replacing it with a system that concerns itself less with rote memorization and more on creative analysis and design based on readily-obtained or readily-made resources. While carried to an exaggerated extreme, Tootsuki basically did that, encouraging and teaching kids to innovate based on what they have access to and what they can obtain or make on their own. They're still trained to be able to assist well as an employee or apprentice, to prep and produce things according to orders in a timely manner, but they still also master an ability to think on the fly, find or make what they need to deal with sticky situations and excel above and beyond.

[germanturkey]

i kind of hope they pick up the pace a little. in the manga at least, spending two chapters of material for the reactions of each of the judges drags stuff out quite a bit.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

I just came across an amusing review of this episode. I guess I'll share by posting some of it:

Spoiler for saving space:

Originally Posted by Sean

Pre-grated parmesan from a container? Bruh. Did they have to make it look so much like Kraft, too? I can let the wing “gyoza” thing slide, but c’mon man, you couldn’t bother to grate parmesan cheese on the fly? Actually, let’s back that up a bit: I’m not sure I can let the wing “gyoza” thing slide. Dude, that’s just Thai angel wings. Why are we calling it a gyoza? If he had removed the chicken skin, then used it like a dumpling wrapper, then sure. That’s kinda gyoza-ish. But let’s just call a spade a spade, and Yukihira definitely made angel wings. After all, Eizan made Hainanese chicken rice, a.k.a. khao mun gai. It’s almost as if Thai cuisine served as the underlying inspiration, and yet, we’re pulling all sorts of mental acrobatics to call those angel wings “gyozas.” Sure, sure.

Plus, Eizan’s dish is lazy in its presentation. Just look at that domed rice sitting on the side. But the biggest offender of all is the lazy salad with those half-assed cherry tomatoes and cucumbers. Dude, just because you’re cooking a rustic dish doesn’t mean you need to serve it like it just came out of a B-rate Asian kitchen. I can go to any Thai place downtown and get a dish that looks exactly like that. For 8.95. Sure, sure, his refined technique makes every ingredient sing, but presentation is part of the grade. Nothing bores me more than that sort of lazy, generic salad that is basically an afterthought, a pitiful clump of vegetables that are thrown in with every takeout order. I certainly wouldn’t expect that from the so-called Alchemist of cooking. He then goes and serves everything with a soup spoon.

But did you know that Eizan is a consultant with hundreds and hundreds of successful contracts under his belt? In fact, he brings in tons of money for the school. Like with all the culinary geniuses on this show, you can’t help but wonder why he’s even attending Totsuki Academy. If I’m already raking in cash hand over fist, you bet your ass I wouldn’t waste my time with some dinky school and its affairs. Help Azami take over the academy and implement a new cooking regime? Who gives a shit? I’m already taking over the industry! Everyone and their mothers want me as their consultant. I’m currently shaping the culinary world as we speak! And when these starry-eyed kids graduate from Totsuki Academy and fail at their first cooking gig — ‘cause 60% of new restaurants fail in their first year — they’ll all turn to me anyway! But predictable anime’s gotta anime, so Eizan gets his ass-whuppin’ from some upstart kid.

In the end, Yukihira saves his dorm, and in doing so, he also inspires everyone across campus to ganbatte it up. Just in the nick of time, too, ‘cause who knows how long his friends could’ve held out. Oh yeah, the kids back at Polar Star Dormitory manage to repel Eizan’s goons with the help of riot gear. According to the dorm’s matron, students used to storm the place during the golden age out of jealousy, so uh, riot gear! It’s just funny because for a prestigious academy, Totsuki really seems like a dangerous place for its students. And while everyone’s busy fighting for their home, all Erina does is sit and wonder to herself, “Wow, these people sure are something else!” You go, girl! Go be that house plant!

I guess this completes my sour taste for this episode .

[Anh_Minh]

He calls them (chicken wing) gyouza because they're apparently a thing in Japan and that's what they call them.

And Eizan is there because the Nakiris are apparently kings of the Japanese food industry who can make and unmake whoever.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, but at the end of the day, it "works" for the same reason Kenichi became a top martial artist instead of a cripple: because it's just a work of fiction. Saying it's absurd is just another way of saying my disbelief isn't quite suspended. It was mostly fine before Azami drew attention to it.

I'm not fully on board with this idea. Martial arts manga do indeed have ridiculous training regimes that would just kill or maim people, but Tootsuki's impractical aspect IMHO was more in its economic feasibility. I really don't see why having unlimited resources and room to exert creativity, while still being trained in all the fundamentals, would be a bad thing. It's a dream education if anything - the sort that you can't have in the real world not because it wouldn't work but because it would be way too expensive to ever pay itself back.

[MCAL]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And Eizan is there because the Nakiris are apparently kings of the Japanese food industry who can make and unmake whoever.

There is another reason Eizen would be inclined to stay in Totsuki (As a member of the Elite Ten specifically), but we'll need to wait for a Shi no Sara for that.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

I'm not fully on board with this idea. Martial arts manga do indeed have ridiculous training regimes that would just kill or maim people, but Tootsuki's impractical aspect IMHO was more in its economic feasibility. I really don't see why having unlimited resources and room to exert creativity, while still being trained in all the fundamentals, would be a bad thing. It's a dream education if anything - the sort that you can't have in the real world not because it wouldn't work but because it would be way too expensive to ever pay itself back.

They don't have unlimited resources. They're also tested on their ability to procure ingredients, remember? The Polar Star Dorm's golden age was golden in part because the residents used shokugeki to take resources from others.

Besides, I don't believe that the constant threat of expulsion is very conductive to creativity. What we see are mostly the freaks who march to their own drums no matter what, but I think a more natural reaction would be to keep your head down and hope no one notices you enough to make trouble, even if it's not viable in the long term. It's only because it's a manga that there are so many "freaks".

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They don't have unlimited resources. They're also tested on their ability to procure ingredients, remember? The Polar Star Dorm's golden age was golden in part because the residents used shokugeki to take resources from others.

Besides, I don't believe that the constant threat of expulsion is very conductive to creativity. What we see are mostly the freaks who march to their own drums no matter what, but I think a more natural reaction would be to keep your head down and hope no one notices you enough to make trouble, even if it's not viable in the long term. It's only because it's a manga that there are so many "freaks".

You do realize that the only way anyone can have a Shokugeki is if their opponent says "yes" and acknowledges what the opponent offers as a fair trade, a la No Game No Life? They weren't bullying people out of their resources or anything like that, they were just engaging in competition putting themselves and their careers on the line to get a leg up against their opponents.

And again, with your constant attention to moments like the resource procurement where the demands were beyond what would be required of an average chef: Tootsuki was not made to create or train average chefs. By the time a student made it through junior high or passed the exams to get into high school, they were already highly skilled. The high school is about training brilliant geniuses who literally stand at the pinnacle of the culinary world, reigning in skill, creativity, impact, in every way that a culinary ARTIST may be measured. For an assistant chef, lacking ingredients is the head chef's fault and they'd never be expected to concern themselves with it. For a head professional chef, obtaining the ingredients necessary regardless of the circumstances and creatively handling crisis situations is a vital skill. Thus, for a school that only cares about producing people who are capable of reaching past professional leadership into celebrity and culinary immortality, it makes perfect sense to declare "if you don't even have the guts to get dirty and the innovation to impress in dire situations, you don't belong here".

Anyway, the threat of expulsion doesn't seem to be near as "constant" as you keep saying. Most of the time all you have is normal classes where you're trained and tested and trained and tested some more, all for simple GRADES ranging from A to E. Generally I only see three places where expulsion is a serious threat. First, if you, like Megumi at the start, fail repeatedly to the point where any school would say "we can't keep you". Second, if you agree to willingly fight someone with your very place in the school on the line in exchange for something you value enough to place such a bet (and frankly, even if bullied, you'd have to be one of those "freaks" you mentioned just to place such a bet). Third is during a handful of preset evaluation periods where it is known that you will spend a brief period undergoing a severe, rigorous evaluation of everything you've learned and developed up to this point with absolutely ruthless scrutiny. And even this doesn't seem to be something that's repeated over and over throughout high school; more like passing the entrance exams gets you a trial period and the real evaluation to permit your presence in the school is that bit of craziness.

Yes, it is a bit extreme, as would be expected in a manga/anime, but really Azami's riding that to the bank, betting on people focusing on all aspects of the school he speaks poorly about and only viewing his new plan based on how they "fix" the "problems", and nothing else. If people just objectively look at the curriculum's stance on independence and creativity they would throw him out easily, as they would if they weighed all the pros and cons of each system in relation to the desired results, so like any Machiavellian bastard he takes care to make sure that anytime people might start to doubt him they're reminded of "problems" he's "solving".

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

You do realize that the only way anyone can have a Shokugeki is if their opponent says "yes" and acknowledges what the opponent offers as a fair trade, a la No Game No Life? They weren't bullying people out of their resources or anything like that, they were just engaging in competition putting themselves and their careers on the line to get a leg up against their opponents.

Yes. My point is that the school doesn't provide "unlimited resources". The students provide their own damn resources.

Which in turn makes me say that the people who thrive at Tootsuki are people would thrive anyway, with or without Tootsuki. The rest are just chewed up and spit out. And, IIRC, treated as damaged goods.

And again, with your constant attention to moments like the resource procurement where the demands were beyond what would be required of an average chef: Tootsuki was not made to create or train average chefs. By the time a student made it through junior high or passed the exams to get into high school, they were already highly skilled. The high school is about training brilliant geniuses who literally stand at the pinnacle of the culinary world, reigning in skill, creativity, impact, in every way that a culinary ARTIST may be measured. For an assistant chef, lacking ingredients is the head chef's fault and they'd never be expected to concern themselves with it. For a head professional chef, obtaining the ingredients necessary regardless of the circumstances and creatively handling crisis situations is a vital skill. Thus, for a school that only cares about producing people who are capable of reaching past professional leadership into celebrity and culinary immortality, it makes perfect sense to declare "if you don't even have the guts to get dirty and the innovation to impress in dire situations, you don't belong here".

That's reality TV thinking. The way they make difficulties with the ingredients is artificial and not reflective of reality.

Anyway, the threat of expulsion doesn't seem to be near as "constant" as you keep saying. Most of the time all you have is normal classes where you're trained and tested and trained and tested some more, all for simple GRADES ranging from A to E. Generally I only see three places where expulsion is a serious threat.

The principal himself reminded them of the failure rates at the entrance ceremony. And every test could be the first step toward expulsion. So, even if the actual risk isn't an everyday thing, the threat is, in fact, as constant as they can make it and still have students by the end of the year.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes. My point is that the school doesn't provide "unlimited resources". The students provide their own damn resources.

Which in turn makes me say that the people who thrive at Tootsuki are people would thrive anyway, with or without Tootsuki. The rest are just chewed up and spit out. And, IIRC, treated as damaged goods.

Top quality equipment. Expert teachers. Materials and funding provided by the school's budget. Sufficient land and equipment to produce your own ingredients, as well as experts and connections to aid in this process. Yeah, these people are really starved for resources.

No, they're provided for far beyond what a person in the outside would be given and leaps and bounds beyond what a reasonable school would provide.

That's reality TV thinking. The way they make difficulties with the ingredients is artificial and not reflective of reality.

It's a TEST. Of sorts. The evaluator wanted to gain as much information on the students' resourcefulness and adaptability and creativity and knowledge, along with their ability to withstand pressure of levels they'd likely see in the real world. True, they wouldn't likely need to go out into the wild to collect ingredients, just like they wouldn't be likely to have a thoroughly stocked "forest" nearby filled with quality ingredients. But they would be likely to experience unexpected shortages or even complete absence of vital ingredients with little time to adapt. And they'd likely have times when a thorough knowledge of cuisine and its availability would be invaluable. Or creativity in tight situations and an ability to adapt quickly. It was a crazy test, but one designed to use a scenario they'd probably never see to test abilities that they'd quite likely rely heavily on.

The principal himself reminded them of the failure rates at the entrance ceremony. And every test could be the first step toward expulsion. So, even if the actual risk isn't an everyday thing, the threat is, in fact, as constant as they can make it and still have students by the end of the year.

Wow, it's almost like it's a SCHOOL. It doesn't matter what school you go to, every test "could be the first step toward expulsion". If you don't perform well enough, eventually the school's going to drop you. At least the private schools will. This sort of threat is the sort of threat that ANYONE in ANY high-standard school would face. True, it's exaggerated, just like Kenichi is exaggerated, or Yakitate, or just about any show, particularly those focused on training and mastering an art. But it's still an exaggeration of things that have a basis in reality.

Also, there's a big difference in the way that the issue was presented between what Senzaemon did and what Azami did. Senzaemon upfront recognized the risks of failure, the "cons" of the school, while offering them in exchange for this risk a great prize for those able to brave and conquer this three-year challenge. Azami on the other hand focused on anything he could paint as a "problem" with Senzaemon's Tootsuki in order to constantly remind people that what he's doing is a "solution", diverting them from looking at a true, objective comparison or even just a direct assessment of his regime. He doesn't want people looking carefully at what his plan will do in total. In fact he doesn't want them looking at all because they're being asked to give away everything. So every time he starts talking about his annihilation of any source of freedom he immediately turns to the incredible insecurity some felt in the old version and suggests that he'll give them absolute security. He's using offers of a supposed absolute "security" to convince the students to surrender "a few" freedoms. I believe there's a saying about that sort of tradeoff...

[ImperialFlameGod8190]

Here's the interesting thing about Azami's method. Azami is basically giving every single student a high class recipe book. He's saying that all you need to do is copy the recipe and do it exactly as i tell you and you can be a gourmet cook. The problem with that method is that it's not true cooking. The only way it works is if you have the perfect conditions every single time and even an amateur knows you can't do it. So while the students may be able to make high quality food they aren't high quality chefs. They'll eventually be exposed sooner or later

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Top quality equipment. Expert teachers.

That is only in class. And the teachers and curriculum, from what we've seen, are of dubious use. Everyone, especially the top performers, look pretty self-taught.

Materials and funding provided by the school's budget. Sufficient land and equipment to produce your own ingredients, as well as experts and connections to aid in this process. Yeah, these people are really starved for resources.

But those don't come out of the school budget. That's my point. Aside from the real estate, it all comes from the students' pockets.

No, they're provided for far beyond what a person in the outside would be given and leaps and bounds beyond what a reasonable school would provide.



It's a TEST. Of sorts. The evaluator wanted to gain as much information on the students' resourcefulness and adaptability and creativity and knowledge, along with their ability to withstand pressure of levels they'd likely see in the real world. True, they wouldn't likely need to go out into the wild to collect ingredients, just like they wouldn't be likely to have a thoroughly stocked "forest" nearby filled with quality ingredients. But they would be likely to experience unexpected shortages or even complete absence of vital ingredients with little time to adapt. And they'd likely have times when a thorough knowledge of cuisine and its availability would be invaluable. Or creativity in tight situations and an ability to adapt quickly. It was a crazy test, but one designed to use a scenario they'd probably never see to test abilities that they'd quite likely rely heavily on.

Uh huh. That wasn't the only instance I was alluding to. You also have Shinomiya, where you have to elbow others aside to rush for ingredients, and the ones who can't do that? Expelled, no matter how creative and adaptable they are with sub-par ingredients.

Wow, it's almost like it's a SCHOOL. It doesn't matter what school you go to, every test "could be the first step toward expulsion". If you don't perform well enough, eventually the school's going to drop you. At least the private schools will. This sort of threat is the sort of threat that ANYONE in ANY high-standard school would face.

I've been to high standard schools (though not for cooking), and I can tell you that's not how they worked at all. Sure, there were demands of academic performance, but it wasn't some kind of three strikes and you're out, let alone a 0.1% graduation rate. School that function like that are, frankly, a scam. They do that to point to the high success of their graduates, but that's no measure of a school's quality if you don't include all of those who enter.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But those don't come out of the school budget. That's my point. Aside from the real estate, it all comes from the students' pockets.

It varies from point to point in the series. Souma bought his own steak to use in the Shokugeki against Ikumi, yet pretty much every other instance shows them being provided ingredients, kitchen appliances, etc.

And I believe it was in the OVA (that was referenced in ep1 of this season) that the Elite 10 have millions of dollars worth of resources they can tap in to that normal students don't, but my memory of that part may be a little off.