2004-11-12, 16:04 | Link #41 | ||
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Antwerp area, Belgium, Europa
Age: 48
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But a complete withdrawal would indeed improve the situation alot. The Palestine could then try to build up their state, extremist groups would loose quite a bit of their support as well (provided Israel doesn't retaliate with tank and bulldozers) Quote:
About an extreme right coup : very unlikely as well : Currently the extremist parties on the right side are mostly colonist parties and their support isn't big enough to launch a coup. Besides the party currently in power (Sharon's Likud Party) is a right wing conservative one... I think if Israel would withdraw it's troops and if they stop the retaliations with tanks and bulldozers, the real problems would be 1. Jerusalem : and solving this one is even harder, I see no easy solution to be honest 2. The economic situation of the Palestinian Territories : even if they are completely independent they have little or no natural resources of any kind, so this new independent state would be in a deep economic crisis real fast, this would ultimately lead to an unstable situation. And if you have a rich neighbour with whom you had decades of conflict, compared to your poverty, the possibility exists that extremist in the Palestine Territories will blame israel and the whole crap will start all over again. A true solution would have to include rebuilding the Palestinian Economy in my opinion. PS thx NSW |
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2004-11-12, 16:18 | Link #42 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2004
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OK, to the guy that lambasted my initial post in here....
Europe pre-WWII was not exactly the friendliest of places for jews. Attitudes towards jews in europe have been well documneted over the ages, you can even see it in literature, and it existed well before WWII going back hundereds of years. After WWII that seemed to soften drastically, perhaps due to the shock of what Nazi Germany did to them. But the facts are all there, and israel was born partly out of the want to find permanent homes for displaced european jews without nations having to take them back. Now, going back to today......anti-semetism is on the rise in europe. Statistics put out by your own EU shows that attacks on jews/jewish institutions in europe have spiked dramatically as of late, especially in france, germany...along with the recent unpleasantness in holland. And as far as sharon being the real terrorist; i can understand why you may not like the Israeli gov't, but understand that the Israeli gov't hasn't been strapping bombs to their citizens and sending them into crowded shopping plazas, pizza parlors, and cafes to blow up Palestinian women and children. Arafat has been doing this since at least the 70s. God only knows how much israeli blood is on his hands, and he will ultimately be the one who punishes him for it. Have fun in hell, Yasser. |
2004-11-12, 16:26 | Link #43 | |||
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I think the best thing to do right now is to take a look at the map of that region.
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I think the only true solution is to have a very strong leader to unite the Arab world into one big country. Unfortunetly, that's not going to happen. Quote:
Remember Sharon is the guy that uses Jets to shoot at buildings. Quick air strikes. And the CIA trains gurrellias to overthrow goverments. I don't know how to exactly label terrorism if it's in a middle of a war. |
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2004-11-12, 16:38 | Link #44 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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As for the economic crisis that would develop, ideally, the israelis should put up some financial aid, but most likely they'd say screw them, why should we help the people that were killing us. Other islamic nations would probably also do little, saying they got their country back and should stop complaining. The US would also probably take a screw you approach, but still send a little money. The vast majority of the resources for rebuilding would probably come from Europe, but there's the possibility that they'd say it's the israeli's problem and not do much either. In short the palestinians would probably be largely on their own, but it still wouldn't be an impossible task, just almost impossible... Actually, the best solution I can think of would be for the palestinians to give up on their ideas of an independent homeland and instead work toward israeli citizenship. Of course that would be completely unacceptable to both sides, but it does have the best outcome that I can see. Personally I don't see why that land is considered holy. I mean if it really was, wouldn't it somehow be better? It's sad to think about all those lives lost over the centuries for land that, for the most part, is little more than a barren wasteland, just because important religious leaders happened to be born there.
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2004-11-12, 16:46 | Link #45 | |
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First of all : both parties would have to stop the fighting, otherwise talking just isn't possible. A good start would be Sharon's plan to withdraw from the Gaza Strip, he could then offer at the new palestinian leaders, (and I say leaderS,since this isn't a job a single palestinian leder should handle) a cease-fire/peace talk proposal. But even if the fighting would stop it won't be that easy. - concerning the negotiations it is obvious that Israel has the stronger position, therefore I think the US should push Israel to be more open to negotiations and concessions if needed, a neutral US would certainly help but (I could be wrong, but this is my impression) the US is more pro Israel. - then there is the problem of the palestine representation, the best thing would be a small group that represents the different factions present. However Israel would have to want to talk to them. - Assuming they do find a way to solve everything, UN Peace Keepers are almost a must have, Their purpose? They should be deployed mostly in Palestinian Territories to maintain the peace and to help build up a state, european troops would probably be best for this job imo. - The peace plan MUST have a way to solve the economical situation, without all solutions would be in vain. This of course implies that palestinians would be ablle to work in Israel again, and opening trade between Israel and Palestina would certainly help If Palestina and Israel can set up some kind of mutual beneficial trade organisation that would take away alot of reasosn to hate/attack each other. This off course would imply a rather heavy investment into Palestina at first However, what I fear the most is that Israel will use the current situation to start up a "divide and rule" strategy, playing out different palestians leaders (who each on their own aren't powerful enough) and taking full control. |
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2004-11-12, 16:48 | Link #46 | ||
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Not to mention. Back in the ancient days, that city was the best city in the world. All trade went through there, terrific access to the Mediterraen and Indian Ocean. The center route of the Silk Road. |
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2004-11-12, 16:52 | Link #47 | |
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Location: Antwerp area, Belgium, Europa
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This even led to a controversy once Sharon claimed the money was being used for terrorism. After that The EU installed a controlling device to see where the money was going to make sure it didn't end in the wrong hands. In fact the EU is actually in favor or sending more aid if that would contribute to a real solution of the problem. |
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2004-11-12, 18:02 | Link #48 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Finally as for the holy grail, wasn't it supposedly taken to europe during the crusades? I've heard two stories about that. one with the knights templar taking it and eventually burying it somewhere in southern france as their order was being persecuted. The other has Richard the lion hearted taking it back to england, where it eventually found its way to america and is currently sitting in the back room of a museum in New York.
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2004-11-12, 20:43 | Link #49 | |
Liberal Screamer
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2004-11-12, 21:04 | Link #50 | |
Aria Company
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2004-11-12, 21:15 | Link #51 | |
Liberal Screamer
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2004-11-12, 21:31 | Link #52 |
So Who Is On Top ?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canuck
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Religion is a brain wash... once you read a bible or beleave in those things, it will be harder for you to quit beleaving even when there's proof cause god say this.. god say that and the other say that... and god.. god..god...
god is your damn planet earth ! sure sure... i can create my own religion so i can be leader like many middle-east peoples do... just to be a prophet or a king look im in the history book ! I think araphat wanted to do the same. Wanna read my bible ? it talks about me and god and he told me what do to. HEY ! look i visit the pope every weeks, to make my peoples beleave that im a good leader... look ! *take a trip at the museum* *OMG ! a stone been touched by jesus ! 100,000 $* Last edited by Meow; 2004-11-12 at 21:45. |
2004-11-12, 21:45 | Link #53 | |
Noumenon
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Wow, another thread where opinion is fiercely divided and, oddly enough, the same people seem to be on the same sides.
I think Arafat was a fascinating character and his history, as well as the events that unfolded around him, are extremely complex, open to a huge amount of debate and interpretation. He was determined, but also stubborn and inflexible. He possibly had very good intentions, but less commendable methods. Perhaps he believed the ends justified the means, or that revenge was as important as progress. I don't think the case is closed on Arafat by any means and I'm sure we will learn more things about him as time goes by and secrets leak out. He was a three-dimensional character who can't necessarily be summed up in a poorly punctuated, single paragraph post on an internet forum. There's a saying that "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" and I'm not sure if Arafat giving people hope was always a good thing - if that hope and that enthusiasm leads them to acts of violence and retaliation then it's not always a positive thing. I think what Arafat desired and did was often quite different from what he inspired others to ask for or to do and, of course, he didn't necessarily represent everyone who claimed to be inspired by him. Nevertheless, many people saw him as fighting for a deserved and just freedom, and I can understand why he was so warmly received by so many people, including the UN, who, way back in 1967, had passed Security Council Resolution 242, asking for the "withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict." So much for that, then. Like so many other problems in the Middle East, this one has grown and grown. You could say some of the root causes date back to the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1918, where Britian and France promised Arabs, who were revolting against the Ottoman Empire, their own lands. What actually happened was that Britain and France divided the area as they saw fit and also, with the Balfour Declaration, leant the international Zionist movement their support in creating a 'Jewish homeland in Palestine'. The middle east has been screwed over many times by the West, no wonder there's so much anti-Western sentiment. I find it ironic that Israel has always condemned right-wing Islamic fundamentalist groups and their behaviour in the region, yet are now under the rule of a much more right-wing leader (of a 'left wing' party) and were unable to prevent the actions of Jewish fundamentalists in assassinating Rabin in 1995 that hampered the peace process considerably. Both sides can be just as bad as each other and exasperate their own problems (Israeli helicopters attacking Palestinain police stations when Israel is asking the Palestinians to better control the proliferation of weapons and explosives? When they don't have any police officers left? Palestinian soldiers firing rockets at Israeli townships and so causing the inevitable tank excursions looking for terrorists and firing at anything that moves?), but how that behaviour filters through the media to our newspapers and televisions can vary considerably. It's inevetable that the wealthier, more powerful side in any dispute has a better equipped media with stronger presence, perhaps leading to an unintentional bias. And, of course, nobody likes to believe that their country or their allies are the ones in the wrong. Quote:
If only it were like Star Wars, where the only people the religious terrorists killed were the white-clad stormtroopers. SCC |
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2004-11-12, 21:47 | Link #54 | |
Noumenon
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2004-11-12, 23:34 | Link #55 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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OK, so you don't like bush. But Bush didn't order the United States military to go indiscriminantly kill innocent men, women and children. You know who DID do that, though? Yassir Arafat. Bush will be judged if he has indeed committed a "sin". But I know for DAMN sure that the intentional and cowardly murder of civilian non-combatants is one. Burn in hell, Arafat. Saddam Hussein kills thousands of his own people a year, and i forget the estimated number of Iraqi citizens that were either killed or went "missing" during the rule of the Ba'ath party, but its a staggering amount. The number of iraqi incidental casualties as a result of this invasion pales in comparison to the amount killed by saddam's party, by saddam himself, or the number that surely would have lost their lives had they been allowed to continue. Its funny that people tend to ignore that. But anyways, nice try trying to derail a thread about ARAFAT into a "Bush is evil, America = MURDERERS" one. This thread is about ARAFAT. He's a Terrorist, he's dead, the world is a better F'n place. |
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2004-11-12, 23:40 | Link #56 |
Unknown
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Unknown Land
Age: 21
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Arafat diverted money donated by foreign countries' tax-payers to his wife who lived in Paris. something like $100000-200000 per month.
he financed terrorism (while simultaniously being a Nobel Peace laureate and smiling for the European cameras and press writing ass-licking op-eds about him being the champion of peace) he did not finance a single housing-unit for "his people" with a) his personal fortune, and b) international donations (read: his personal fortune) being a senile terrorist would be bad for public image, had the world press not treated him like a sweetheart. who knows why he needed over a billion dollars for himself... why 200 million wasn't enough... and who knows why he didn't spend it on his people... but wait. the Guardian, NYT and CBS will think of something |
2004-11-13, 01:12 | Link #57 | |
It's bacon!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Up and to the Left
Age: 43
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2004-11-13, 06:00 | Link #58 | |
Liberal Screamer
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2004-11-13, 10:04 | Link #59 | |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Your reply has nothing to do with Arafat, you just want to criticize the united states. Rwanda - WHERE IS THE UNITED NATIONS? Cambodia - WHERE IS THE UNITED NATIONS? Its not just the US that doesn't care about them. You, and the rest of the world, don't care about them. So don't give me that BS. If it were otherwise there'd be an arseload of UN Peackeepers there. Where are they???? We don't care about them because the Rwandan government has no capacity to hurt the United States or support terrorists. The Khmer Rouge are a bunch of gunmen that hide out in the wilderness of cambodia, they aren't going to hurt us either. Nice try with the death penalty crap as well. IMO, the death penalty isn't applied ENOUGH. It seems that you want to argue about everything else OTHER than arafat. I wonder why that is. Is it perhaps because, gasp, you CANT? The mods should just close this damn thread. Its pointless because some of you refuse to stay on topic, and just degenerate into US-bashing in your defense of this Monster. Having Bush re-elected was worth it, if only just to see the whining and crying of people like you. Keep it up, it warms my cold, black, evil republican soul. |
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2004-11-13, 10:26 | Link #60 |
Liberal Screamer
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Your arguement before was that the reason why we attack Iraq was because we care for the ppl of Iraq, and you wanted to put human atrocity down because of what Saddam did to his ppl. I counter your arguement saying that if we are so into helping against human astrocity what about these other countries with Genocide. Lol you know how many U.N resolution Israel broke? But you don't want to hear that. Arafat did what he can to fight for his country, in which he was chased out from. Palestine does not have the U.S weapons Israel does, so they resort to doing something that they feel works. Do I support there action, no. But I can understand where Arafat comes from. You would do the same if you were pushed into the corner. lol I like how you republicans seems to understand what god really when Jesus clearly speak of peace and compassion, and hey heres one forgiveness. Death penalty implement more, there something you would never hear out of the mouth of Jesus too.
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