True Tears - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Kangai

What makes it difficult for Ai is that Nobuse technically didn't do anything "wrong." He was a good boyfriend, attentive, caring, and he worked hard to make the relationship work. I think he tried a little bit too hard, but he's giving her the space she needs right now, which is good. I'd be really surprised if Ai managed to force herself to love him by the end of the series, seeing as she was already trying so hard for that when it first started. I wonder what a Nobuse x Hiromi ending would look like...

Nobuse is another victim here. He was used by Aiko to stay close to Shin. that is why it makes it so hard for Aiko to break up with him. She tried and he stopped her, when he used that line about Aiko being the only one for him, she couldn't break up with him. It was very unfair and selfish from Nobuse though, I think that is why he is giving her some space. I was amazed that he even asked her if he could come in in the first place.

[lea]

Originally Posted by SnEptUne

It isn't really that difficult to shot from the free throw line if you have been practicing.

Hiromi and Jun shot from two different places.
Hiromi shot from the free throw line which, as you mentioned, is not that difficult to shoot from when you've been practicing.
Jun did NOT shoot from the free throw line. He shot from HALF-COURT, which is much farther away and very difficult to shoot from, even with practice and even for a NBA player.

I hope that clarifies things.

[SnEptUne]

Originally Posted by Var

If you want to call a relationship based on manipulation and chickens shining, then go right ahead. But I for one wouldn't use shinny for that form of a relationship. And no one is framing Ai as the Monna Lisa, we're simply saying that out of the whole she is probably the healthiest of the pile of steaming crap for Shin to choose from.

Ohh, chicken. I haven't thought of that, but chickens... are cute! They should get more chickens and date them; it is healthier than dating the feeble humans.

But if Shin and others really wanted to date someone seriously for marriage, well good luck. I have never seen a happy marriage. Even the "happiest" marriage I have observed is just bondage.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Var

The show has explicitly shown that she was waiting for Shin to break free from his obsessions with Hiromi, that's her type of character. She does not want to hurt anyone and simply goes with the flow, until recently that is. That's even part of why she finally dropped her passive nature and kissed him; what she had waited for finally happened and in an instant Noe stole Shin away. Seems like a fitting reaction to such an occurence.

Look if Ai wanted to give him space instead of fighting for him then that is her fault. No one else's. It like the lottery you don't enter you don't have a chance of winning. Or a more appropriate comparison is Kasimasi when Tomari is told to get on the stage or loose out on the chance. Guess what Ai lost out and from your own post it was her fault no one elses.

Originally Posted by Var

This point has been beaten to death in the Ai discussion thread. The flash back shows that it was a double teaming for her to date Nobuse. You have Nobuse more or less begging her to date him, and then Shin supporting him/pressuring Ai. She buckled, expected. The fault is not only hers, it is also Shin's. And I suppose Nobuse's as well, in a way, since if he were truly the man he boasts to be, he'd have done it alone. Everyone's culapable.

I go out clubbing and some of my more dodgy friends who are actually good friends will do their darnest to persuade me to pop a pill. Do I do it? No coz my health is important to me. All you are proving is that Ai doesn't consider a romantic relationship as important as pleasing Shin. So back to my exaggerated whoring thing, is Shin pimping her out to Nobu? I think not neh. Self worth and all that crap is up to the individual, if Ai's is that low then I have yet to see anyone else to blame but her.

Originally Posted by Var

As for accepting to be noticed, not quite. She accepted to try and get closer to Shin through his friend (turning a negative into a positive). She said it herself in, what was it, episode 2? Shin had already 'noticed' her, they spent plenty of time together prior to Nobuse entering the scene.

Would you stop ignoring the current episode please! Shin has stated he considers her like a sister. Stop thinking that a relationship is all about one person. A healthy relationship is about both. What is so positive about going out with Nobu to try to get Shin to notice her. I'd like to point out that before episode 1 she shot herself in the foot by going out with Shin's best friend. As his childhood friend shouldn't she have known him a little better, to know that he would react this way? Maybe she isn't actually that big a part of his life after all neh?

Originally Posted by Var

If you look back Ai hid all her feelings for Shin from him. Why? Because he was preoccupied with Hiromi. Ai was giving him space to sort out his own mess. She made subtle hints at the fact but Shin can be thick headed and if he's already preoccupied he probably never noticed.

So what if he is preoccupied with her. If Ai knew him for such a long time and was good enough friends to hit sister status, then she if she wanted to could have tried to turn his head her way. Stop trying to make her out to be a saint. Liking someone isn't a mess. Him liking Hiriomi isn't a bad thing at all. It's an emotion just like Ai liking Shin is. If Shin is a mess then so is Ai.

Originally Posted by Var

As for the kiss and subsequent reaction, that, as had been expected by everyone, was the generic reaction for Shin to have. He's already wtfconfused by everything else, what does one expect? Him to jump her bones? Hardly. As for showing no interest ever, thats not true. In eight we see Shin thinking back to the kiss and blushing, that's showing interest. And what would flashbacks to childhood have to do with a kiss? He flashed back to the important thing, the kiss, not some worthless past events which Hiromi tends to do alot.

Oh I would think that flashbacks about Ai after he is alone would show that he is thinking about her and maybe some hidden emotion has been brought to light. Instead he didn't so stop trying to make up stuff which didn't happen. He was happily off dating another girl with no angsting. Does supporting a character require such blind devotion

FFS first kiss = blush, even a good boy has a penis, him thinking back to it and blushing can mean many things, but it didn't affect him. Actually him seeing Hiromi with Jun throws him off far more then Ai's kiss did.

Originally Posted by Var

I am not saying this is going to be a super relationship, I am saying it would be the 'healthiest' of the bunch. My wording could be applied to three abysmal relationships and Ai's just happens to be less covered in shit than the other three.



How childish she acts now is important because it shows just how little she's grown up/changed. And I'd hardly grossly generalize their relationship as 'happy, bright, and shiny'. That's just ignoring everything that's happened prior to them going out and talking about a chicken for ten minutes.
Their relationship has been built on: Awkwardness, a chicken, rivalry, manipulation (ala Jun), confusion, fledgling emotions/naivety, disturbing revelations, and then we can throw in happy, bright, and shinny. If you notice the three descriptive words you used are only surface words, usually not the best to use for something like this. Which is why I tend to dislike Noe, on the surface she is cute/happy, on the inside she's confused/naive.



Ai's thoughts through the show, much like everyone else's, have been shown through facial expressions. Look back at the flash back of Nobuse asking Ai out, you can see her hesitate, look at Shin (who does nothing but cheer on Nobuse), and then weakly accept Nobuse.

It's Shin's fault because he pressured her, there's no dancing around that fact. Theya re both culpable. The rest of you paragraph/point is rather useless since we know Shin, at that point, was too obsessed with Hiromi to notice a brick flying at his face. So if he misses the brick, he's sure as hell not going to notice the subtle hints from Ai. (Like how troubled she was accepting Nobuse to begin with.)



Most of what I go by is based on my thoughts posted above, I don't want Ai to win just because I like her more, I want her to win because I percieve that she is the best match of the group. And sure, I would like her to end up with someone that loves her back (which I believe is possible for shin once he clears out the mess he's in) but so far no such thing has been shown that wouldn't simply flip the table (ala Nobuse).



If you want to call a relationship based on manipulation and chickens shining, then go right ahead. But I for one wouldn't use shinny for that form of a relationship. And no one is framing Ai as the Monna Lisa, we're simply saying that out of the whole she is probably the healthiest of the pile of steaming crap for Shin to choose from.

All I got from that last bulk is your intense dislike of Noe and Jun. Look if you can't see how Noe has actually got Shin drawing his story book and looking bright and happy then that is up to u. But please stop trying to shove your fanboi opinions down my throat.

Also try to realise that the dense overly preoccupied with Hiromi guy as you call him, noticed someone else and that person is Noe not Ai.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Also try to realise that the dense overly preoccupied with Hiromi guy as you call him, noticed someone else and that person is Noe not Ai.

Oh please, don't bring Noe as being noticed. What show are you watching. Shin didn't want to date Noe at all, it was Jun forcing him to do it. Now, will love come out of it, it is possible, but he is going out with Noe just to keep jun going out with Hiromi. Shin didn't have any interest on Noe till Jun stalked him with his motocycle, matter of fact the fight with Hiromi was because Shin was being unfriendly to her. The change from avoiding her to confessing happened in one day.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by golthin

Oh please, don't bring Noe as being noticed. What show are you watching. Shin didn't want to date Noe at all, it was Jun forcing him to do it. Now, will love come out of it, it is possible, but he is going out with Noe just to keep jun going out with Hiromi. Shin didn't have any interest on Noe till Jun stalked him with his motocycle, matter of fact the fight with Hiromi was because Shin was being unfriendly to her. The change from avoiding her to confessing happened in one day.

I'm watching the show where Shin notice Noe. It doesn't matter if Jebus helped Noe, the fact is Shin noticed her and not Ai. Go re-write the story if you are so desperate for Ai to get some Shin loving.

Fact - Ai has had much more chances then Noe to get Shin's attention (as in she is a childhood friend).

Fact - She failed. The rest is just pathetic defence of a character with arguments that haven't been shown in the show.

So I guess you are ignoring how Shin avoided the whole dating Noe thing until he decided he wanted to...

[Deathkillz]

Lawl grey_moon...you make me laugh ^^

I agree with the side that says that this is strictly a one sided relationship between Shin and Ai. She loves him but he only likes her as a friend and that is basically it.

How this turned out to be was beyond him (like any "thick" male lead who just can't detect pheromones given off by a girl) and he should well be surprised that she kissed him. But because his reaction was so certain, it is pretty clear to me that he really didn't have any feelings for her prior to the kiss...

...and from what I can see, he still isn't interested...maybe if Ai jumped into his chest a few more times he will notice her, but for now her increasing love for Noe is more of an importance. Whether he means it or not, he is falling for the girl.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Lawl grey_moon...you make me laugh ^^

I agree with the side that says that this is strictly a one sided relationship between Shin and Ai. She loves him but he only likes her as a friend and that is basically it.

How this turned out to be was beyond him (like any "thick" male lead who just can't detect pheromones given off by a girl) and he should well be surprised that she kissed him. But because his reaction was so certain, it is pretty clear to me that he really didn't have any feelings for her prior to the kiss...

...and from what I can see, he still isn't interested...maybe if Ai jumped into his chest a few more times he will notice her, but for now her increasing love for Noe is more of an importance. Whether he means it or not, he is falling for the girl.

Glad to give someone a chuckle

I'm just surprised at Ai's elevation to martyrdom with all the she held herself back for Shin yada yada.

I mean the whole show has been about Shin angsting about Hiromi (and his mum) and in my mind with the book being the score board of how each girl is doing.

Hiromi got one page I believe and it was so emo dark no way would any sane parent buy it for their children.

Noe got a card board box chicken (sure to get the curse lifted ) and now has encouraged him to write a happy bright (weird) story about chickens. This is what I mean about bright and happy. So she is in the lead with pages.

Ai got nada. Not a natto, not a sausage, not even a bean from one of her cakes.

Even though I like Noe I can see that there is a really good chance that she won't end up with Shin and I don't mind as long as the story is well told.

I can see Noe's childish side, just as I can see how Shin is waking up different emotions within her and how she is waking up Shin's feelings to do the book which is kinda important for his future. If he keeps angsting he'll end up stuck with his dad's business under his mums foot!

I can also see Jun's dark and weird nature, just as I can see how loving he is to his sister, and how he keeps his word even though he knows it is dangerous.

I can see the depth of Ai's love for Shin.

With all of this I still believe that Hiromi is going to end up with Shin, but hey I don't mind being proven wrong decent arguments instead of fanatic support of one character and extreme demonising of others....

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by golthin

Oh please, don't bring Noe as being noticed. What show are you watching. Shin didn't want to date Noe at all, it was Jun forcing him to do it. Now, will love come out of it, it is possible, but he is going out with Noe just to keep jun going out with Hiromi. Shin didn't have any interest on Noe till Jun stalked him with his motocycle, matter of fact the fight with Hiromi was because Shin was being unfriendly to her. The change from avoiding her to confessing happened in one day.

In episode three, Shin was surprised to find himself sighing after seeing Noe get picked up by some guy on a bike, whom he thought was her boyfriend. In ep2, he praised her strength, in a voice full of wonder. In ep1, he looked up at her and said "Isurugi Noe's tears" in a feeling way.

His feelings for Hiromi were, and probably are now, stronger than his feelings for Noe, but to say he didn't notice Noe is not correct, in my opinion. Yes, he was convincing himself in his room that he liked her, but he did end up convincing himself. And I believe he does. Just maybe not as much as he likes Hiromi. But this relationship, no matter how it started, is so far producing happiness in both him and Noe. He wears a similar silly smile to when he thought (correctly, as it turns out) that Hiromi wanted to be friends with Noe in order to get closer to him.

That day he said Noe's face "disturbed" him, he used a word konran that can mean "causes confusion." It's the kind of word you'd use if you were falling in love with someone you didn't think you liked.

Unfortunately for Ai, he has never noticed her in that way. She's a pal. Here, too, I think there is a chance he could have a revelation and change. Ai would make him a great girlfriend. But I don't think he will.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

His feelings for Hiromi were, and probably are now, stronger than his feelings for Noe, but to say he didn't notice Noe is not correct, in my opinion. Yes, he was convincing himself in his room that he liked her, but he did end up convincing himself. And I believe he does. Just maybe not as much as he likes Hiromi. But this relationship, no matter how it started, is so far producing happiness in both him and Noe.

There are different sorts/types of love. After seeing your reactions in a number of shows now, I've noticed that you seem to very heavily favour the "innocent, puppy love" sort of romance. Blushing, holding hands, going out on dates, wanting to be together and feeling embarrassed about it... These are the sorts of things you cheered most fervently for in ef, D.C. II, and now here (I'm probably forgetting others). This is the sort of "love" that Noe and Shinichirou have at the moment -- he thinks she's cute and is starting to enjoy the time he spends with her, and she's thinking of him 24/7 since she's going out with her first crush. He's starting to think of things he can do for her sake in order to make her happy. So that's one sort of love.

The sort of love he's been portrayed to have for Hiromi is sort of a bit different. It has little-to-no "fairy tale" left in it; it's raw, painful, and all-encompassing. It's close to an obsession, but not quite the "creepy stalker" sort. I guess you could say it's a "messy love"; it doesn't have much length or width, but it has a whole ton of depth. So this is why, even as he explores the surface of his relationship with Noe and things continue to get closer between them, he continues to find himself almost drowning in his lingering feelings for Hiromi (even though he knows in his head that he should get over it). It's almost the antithesis of the innocence that Noe's supposed to represent.

When love starts on the surface, as with Noe, it only takes time and opportunity for it to grow deeper. But likewise, for "deep" love, as he feels for Hiromi, only time can heal those wounds. Because this anime is, obviously, somewhat of a time-crunch of events, and everything is conspiring together very quickly, it would be very difficult to come up with a convincing scenario that would rectify this imbalance in the time remaining. It's more natural, from a storytelling perspective, that instead of focusing on Shinichirou getting over his feelings for Hiromi, it would focus on having those feelings finally reciprocated in spite (or perhaps because) of the many trials faced.

So in short, it's not that I don't think Shinichirou has feelings for Noe -- he does, and they're continuing to grow. It's just that I don't think he'll have the time or opportunity to allow those feelings to grow deeper and deeper. It seems to me that circumstances are conspiring to cut their time together short. But, of course, we shall see...

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

There are different sorts/types of love....

What you say about Shin's feelings for the two girls makes sense, but I could also say that Shin's love for Hiromi is a long-standing, obsessive infatuation with the first girl he ever noticed in that way, and his love for Noe is deeper in the sense that it is more focused on a real person and involves real interaction with her.

I have to add that whenever anyone tries to characterize another person's attitudes, especially in a way that trivializes them and gets some details of them wrong, that other person can come away feeling insulted. Better just to stick with the point rather than talking about the person.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I have to add that whenever anyone tries to characterize another person's attitudes, especially in a way that trivializes them and gets some details of them wrong, that other person can come away feeling insulted. Better just to stick with the point rather than talking about the person.

It was honestly not an attempt to trivialize or belittle, but I apologize. I don't consider that some sort of negative prognosis! I'm simply trying to understand where you're coming from, but apparently I'm not there yet. I can't not consider the person when I post, but I'll try to refrain from making any observations. So, in short, I'm sorry.

[cloudninja]

I think it's too early to call what Shin has for Noe love. Yes, I too believe he is developing some level of feelings for her. Just as Aiko taking his first kiss caused a reaction in him later blushing when remembering it because he remembered her lips as being "so soft", having his first date ever with anyone be with Noe is triggering some strange new sensations for him because he's new to all this. He probably feels growing affection for Noe that could eventually turn into love given enough time but he has strong unresolved feelings for Hiromi right now.

But you should'nt make assumptions that Shin simply grew infatuated with Hiromi as if from afar. They had years of interaction together where he noticed how cheerful and smiling she was as Shin himself stated in episode 1. That's probably when he fell in love with her. It's just that he never had the courage to take the next step and then events happened that caused Hiromi to move in and act differently than before with him, temporarily delaying chances of further development of their relationship. The following episodes are probably setting up to allow them to at least explore that potential. They should be given a chance to find out how well they fit together rather than never having had that chance right? And it would'nt surprise me at all if they positively glow in the presence of one another once all the obstacles have been cleared and they have no external worries or interference in their lives. I think there's a reason why they're leaving more development time for Hiromi in the end as she gets a chance to show more positive development in both her attitude and her interaction with Shin and his family.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Never mind, relentlessflame. I'm too sensitive. I like Hiromi, too. Just not as much. There's no accounting for taste. Hopefully they will find a fulfilling (for the audience) way of concluding things for each character.

[grey_moon]

@Kaoru Chujo - ooo nice post, thanks for the reminder that Noe was actually noticed earlier.

Thinking about it, could Shin not know what love for him is yet? Actually who really understands it, it changes with each person we meet I think. In earlier episodes people have posted that Shin acts the way he does in regards to Hiromi and Jun (the push them together despite the one sided thing) because of Ai and Nobu's example of love. Also if his mother acts cold towards the dad that would enforce the belief.

Which brings us onto rf's post which I think is really excellent and insightful.

So ignoring his parents we have:

Ai and Nobu - One sided from Nobu
Jun and Hiromi - One sided from Hiromi (in his mind!)
Him and Hiromi - He currently thinks it is one sided from him
Ai and him - One sided from Ai to him
Noe and him - Surprisingly it looks to be different from the rest just in it looks to be not one-sided, sure chicken based but he is reacting to her instead of a fantasy.

I stuck Noe x Shin on the bottom because that currently is the only one that has been shown where both parties have been shown enjoying themselves together for the sake of being together. I know it started pretty weird in a lot of people's eyes with the whole flying, no crying and chicken thing, but I can't see how anyone can't say that Shin right now isn't experiencing something new and actually enjoying himself.

I would go as far to say that in this epi it is Ai and Hiromi who are the ones trying to throw a spanner in the works with their issues or one sided love. <- Of course that would make for a boring story so I won't

Anyway back on to what I was trying to say.... In terms of Shin liking Hiromi I don't think we have arrived at the story time line to see anything good about Shin's feelings for her. It is at time when everything is so complicated. I personally think a lot of it has been warped by his mothers meddling. He just gets so pissed of by his mother which is not surprising as she doesn't try to hide her attitude at all, so I wonder how much of the depth of his feelings for Hiromi is a subconscious rebellion against his mum? Anyways I like your summary of Shin's feelings for Hiromi even though it kinda creeps me out and your line about them overcoming all those trials is why I think Hiromi will end up with Shin *sob*

Now onto your point about Noe and the cute innocent love.... I think it is a good thing for Shin to have this type of love. He is only a teenager. In his shoes and knowing what I know as the viewer I would not go for Ai just because Shin has no feelings in that sense for her. Bagging someone just coz they have the hots for you is not something a good boy would do (especially since they are meant to be friends). Romance with Hiromi just doesn't have that fairy tale happy element. Plenty of time to do "till death do us part and in sickness and in health" when he is much older, wiser and had much more experiences of being young and happy under his belt (ie Noe)

[Var]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Look if Ai wanted to give him space instead of fighting for him then that is her fault. No one else's. It like the lottery you don't enter you don't have a chance of winning. Or a more appropriate comparison is Kasimasi when Tomari is told to get on the stage or loose out on the chance. Guess what Ai lost out and from your own post it was her fault no one elses.

I never said it wasn't her fault, its just her character type. But, the series of faults that led to her downfall are not all her fault. You can put the blame on nearly every character in the story for how it came out to be but its mostly on her and Shin.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

I go out clubbing and some of my more dodgy friends who are actually good friends will do their darnest to persuade me to pop a pill. Do I do it? No coz my health is important to me. All you are proving is that Ai doesn't consider a romantic relationship as important as pleasing Shin. So back to my exaggerated whoring thing, is Shin pimping her out to Nobu? I think not neh. Self worth and all that crap is up to the individual, if Ai's is that low then I have yet to see anyone else to blame but her.

That's a silly analogy. Peer pressure from buddies to 'pop pills' is not the same as pressure from your crush to do something, especially not for a teenage girl. It is also somewhat the point to show that Ai did not accept Nobuse for Nobuse but more for getting closer to Shin, so she finds Shin (her crush) more important than anything else, makes sense to me given the context. Was it the right thing to do? No. Was it all her fault and was it all done out of some evil motive? No. Remove Shin from the confession and Nobu gets turned down, simple.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Would you stop ignoring the current episode please! Shin has stated he considers her like a sister. Stop thinking that a relationship is all about one person. A healthy relationship is about both. What is so positive about going out with Nobu to try to get Shin to notice her. I'd like to point out that before episode 1 she shot herself in the foot by going out with Shin's best friend. As his childhood friend shouldn't she have known him a little better, to know that he would react this way? Maybe she isn't actually that big a part of his life after all neh?

I'm not omitting episode eight from what I write. I'm also not omitting that line. At the same time, however, I have to ask you not to omit the fact that the reaction is just that a reaction, not a thought out essay for a PhD paper. Now if we want to actually look at episode eight, the more appropriate point would be that he is now avoiding Ai. That, however, can be said to be out of confusion or, even better, the oddity of the situation it would create with Nobuse being there. Remember, Shin has no idea she tried to break up with Nobuse.

Stop reiterating what a healthy relationship is, I know what it is and I am not trying to frame it as something that can come from a one sided love. The problem is that right now we don't know what Shin's long term reaction to Ai's revelation is, we know his jerk reaction which doesn't carry much water. We also know that he does think about it, even if its for less than honorable reasons, but he is none the less thinking about it and that's how things change.

Ai is not a mind reader. How Shin would react, from her PoV, is anyones guess. Don't think that she knows any where near as much as the audience. She took a gamble and lost. Though that last line is rather odd for you to say, being called like a sister puts her pretty damn high on his 'important to my life' people's list, its just not in the romantic column.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

So what if he is preoccupied with her. If Ai knew him for such a long time and was good enough friends to hit sister status, then she if she wanted to could have tried to turn his head her way. Stop trying to make her out to be a saint. Liking someone isn't a mess. Him liking Hiriomi isn't a bad thing at all. It's an emotion just like Ai liking Shin is. If Shin is a mess then so is Ai.

Again, not her character type. She is not a saint, she is that type of character. I can't change the fact of the matter that that is how she was structured by the writers. There is also the possibility that she did not act because she did not believe she could win against Hiromi, but that is information we have no access to. And I never said Ai isn't a mess, she sure as hell is, and therefore so is Shin. You have to note that a lot of what happens around Hiromi, in this show, is a mess.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Oh I would think that flashbacks about Ai after he is alone would show that he is thinking about her and maybe some hidden emotion has been brought to light. Instead he didn't so stop trying to make up stuff which didn't happen. He was happily off dating another girl with no angsting. Does supporting a character require such blind devotion

FFS first kiss = blush, even a good boy has a penis, him thinking back to it and blushing can mean many things, but it didn't affect him. Actually him seeing Hiromi with Jun throws him off far more then Ai's kiss did.

Blind devotion? I'd hope not. A flash back doesn't have to show anything more than the fact that he is thinking about her, whatever the reason. What stuff did I make up? That he blushed after thinking about it? That happened. That they didn't have any other flash backs? Well that happened too. Not quite sure what I've made up, I'm just analyzing the event through my own point of view.

A fascinating discovery, that Shin is infact a boy. Congratulations. Him thinking back to it could have meant many things, yes, but we have no clue whether or not it affected him... unless you can read minds? I'd say him saying 'her lips were soft' shows the kiss had some effect, beyond the fact that it forces him to think of her everytime he remembers.

Well, I'd hope that a mere kiss wouldn't do quite as much as seeing your beloved being carted away by someone else. Otherwise Shin would have been jumping Ai's bones after the kiss. You're trying to compare a prick of the finger to a lead block hitting your head.

Originally Posted by grey_moon

All I got from that last bulk is your intense dislike of Noe and Jun. Look if you can't see how Noe has actually got Shin drawing his story book and looking bright and happy then that is up to u. But please stop trying to shove your fanboi opinions down my throat.

Also try to realise that the dense overly preoccupied with Hiromi guy as you call him, noticed someone else and that person is Noe not Ai.

Well I think its perfectly legal for me to not like a character, but that's really not a reason to disregard what I wrote, just note that what I say is (just like what you say) jaded from my own PoV. If I wanted to shove my ideals down your throat I wouldn't bother typing up this much and providing arguments. I'd probably be more inclined to just "NO YOUZ WRONG AIS BEST!! NUBSZQ!!!111"

Quite honestly, as dense as Shin is, I don't he's so dense not to notice a girl riding his back. Notice, your comparing apples and oranges. Ai is subtle while Noe is in your face. One is alot harder to notice than the other, and the former can go unnoticed by someone dense while not the latter. So yes, he noticed the blaring horn but missed the bycicle's jingle.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Var

...

For all that you have written apart from him blushing about Ai's kiss you have nothing that even remotely shows that Shin has any feelings for Ai other then a friend. That is what I mean by blind devotion.

Ai accepting Nobu's feelings is Ai's choice. Geezz what next? Nobu raped her with Shin's help?

[golthin]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

There are different sorts/types of love. After seeing your reactions in a number of shows now, I've noticed that you seem to very heavily favour the "innocent, puppy love" sort of romance. Blushing, holding hands, going out on dates, wanting to be together and feeling embarrassed about it... These are the sorts of things you cheered most fervently for in ef, D.C. II, and now here (I'm probably forgetting others). This is the sort of "love" that Noe and Shinichirou have at the moment -- he thinks she's cute and is starting to enjoy the time he spends with her, and she's thinking of him 24/7 since she's going out with her first crush. He's starting to think of things he can do for her sake in order to make her happy. So that's one sort of love.

The sort of love he's been portrayed to have for Hiromi is sort of a bit different. It has little-to-no "fairy tale" left in it; it's raw, painful, and all-encompassing. It's close to an obsession, but not quite the "creepy stalker" sort. I guess you could say it's a "messy love"; it doesn't have much length or width, but it has a whole ton of depth. So this is why, even as he explores the surface of his relationship with Noe and things continue to get closer between them, he continues to find himself almost drowning in his lingering feelings for Hiromi (even though he knows in his head that he should get over it). It's almost the antithesis of the innocence that Noe's supposed to represent.

When love starts on the surface, as with Noe, it only takes time and opportunity for it to grow deeper. But likewise, for "deep" love, as he feels for Hiromi, only time can heal those wounds. Because this anime is, obviously, somewhat of a time-crunch of events, and everything is conspiring together very quickly, it would be very difficult to come up with a convincing scenario that would rectify this imbalance in the time remaining. It's more natural, from a storytelling perspective, that instead of focusing on Shinichirou getting over his feelings for Hiromi, it would focus on having those feelings finally reciprocated in spite (or perhaps because) of the many trials faced.

So in short, it's not that I don't think Shinichirou has feelings for Noe -- he does, and they're continuing to grow. It's just that I don't think he'll have the time or opportunity to allow those feelings to grow deeper and deeper. It seems to me that circumstances are conspiring to cut their time together short. But, of course, we shall see...

Wow, that was an awesome analysis of how Shin feel for both Noe and Hiromi. I agree about the time crunching part. there is not enough time for Shin to heal from his love for Hiromi.

[Var]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

For all that you have written apart from him blushing about Ai's kiss you have nothing that even remotely shows that Shin has any feelings for Ai other then a friend. That is what I mean by blind devotion.

Ai accepting Nobu's feelings is Ai's choice. Geezz what next? Nobu raped her with Shin's help?

Sigh. It does not matter if Shin had any feelings for Ai prior to the kiss, the fact of the matter is the future is dependent on what will come from thoughts like those linked to the kiss, one catalyst starts a reaction. The ingredients are present (a childhood friendship to use as a backing to a healthy relationship, as an example) its just a question of if the reaction occurs. Which is what my entire point is about, the rest is me trying to point out to you that the hole that Ai dug is in is not entirely her fault, which you make it out to be.

As for the rest... straw man much? Look at what I wrote, Ai's choice to accept Nobuse can be argued as being forced into, that is why the flashback was there. What other point would there be to that flashback? To show us that Nobuse asked Ai out? Unless they assume we are idiots then likely not, I think the viewers figured that out in... oh episode one?

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Var

Sigh. It does not matter if Shin had any feelings for Ai prior to the kiss, the fact of the matter is the future is dependent on what will come from thoughts like those linked to the kiss, one catalyst starts a reaction. The ingredients are present (a childhood friendship to use as a backing to a healthy relationship, as an example) its just a question of if the reaction occurs. Which is what my entire point is about, the rest is me trying to point out to you that the hole that Ai dug is in is not entirely her fault, which you make it out to be.

As for the rest... straw man much? Look at what I wrote, Ai's choice to accept Nobuse can be argued as being forced into, that is why the flashback was there. What other point would there be to that flashback? To show us that Nobuse asked Ai out? Unless they assume we are idiots then likely not, I think the viewers figured that out in... oh episode one?

You see it as a healthy build up of childhood friendship blossoming into love. I and currently Shin sees it as sister snogging.

How are you interperating these scenes? From Ai's PoV? From Shin's? Personally I'm trying to do it from both, but since the story is Shin centric its rather hard to know where Ai is coming from apart from guessing.

I've read your and others arguments on how the poor Virgin Mary aka Aiko was bullied by the foolish mis-guided Shin who was corrupted by the evil satanic Noe, her succubus sibling and her legions of merciless manipulative chickens. You know what, none of it makes sense unless I squint really hard and ignore the other characters apart from Aiko and wave the Ai forever banner.

Your point is Ai was forced to accept Nobu's feelings because of Shin badgering her. My point is Ai accepted Nobu's feelings therefore shooting herself in the foot. The thing is both could actually be right. Just I don't see it from your extreme PoV. I see cause and effect. I also believe in the sanctity of relationships be it friendship, family or romance. If you really believe that Ai is such a weak person that she would dally around with another guy to give the bloke she likes "breathing space" or to "appease him", then surely she needs to do a lot more growing up then Noe does.

Grabbing someone and slogging them doesn't make romance blossom. I recommend to any young viewers to not do that without permission as some people believe it is their right to give away their kiss to another. In worse case scenario its called assault.