Heavy Object - Episode 11 (Iguazu Mountains 2) Discussion / Poll

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I'm sorry, Froylaytia's story irritates the crap out of me.

So, she's from a family that will bear male offspring 100% of the time? Well, her being a blood related Capistrano means that that number is already false. it cannot be 100% of the time if she exists.

Also, she does realize that the female has practically no influence as to whether the offspring is male or female or not? That is completely up to the male's sperm. He would be the one with the Y chromosome needed, all she provides are Xs. How can she have guaranteed male offspring all the time, especially considering she herself is an aberration? They could suggest that she has some sort of natural spermicide that targets only X chromosomes, but then I would think that would mess up her own reproductive system. And I'm sorry but if the guy was practically sterile like in one example she was giving, it wouldn't matter for her no matter what her genetics are, she's still not getting pregnant. Male or female.

And if she's really is that annoyed about what every man wants for her, she's already going against tradition by being in the military and she says she'll just stay there until she's old, why doesn't she just go for a more simple route and have a tubectomy? Or a hysterectomy? Or something of that nature? If this is such a problem with her and she's willing to sacrifice her life to the military and cut children out of her life completely by doing so, why not just go though a much quicker and less dangerous procedure and then live her life the way she wants to?

I'm sorry, she's not gaining any sympathy from me with her story, simply because of how ridiculous it is.

As for the rest of the episode, it was pretty good, I like the whole Mach 25 missiles and all the damage they had to run away from. We'll see how they get through it next time.

Originally Posted by Botan_TM

Well, still in the end it only matters what all those freaks from nobility believes.

Originally Posted by LazyHunter

Capistrano family has an almost 100% chance of having male children. The fact that she's a rare female Capistrano is what makes her so valuable, as people believe she will almost certainly give them a male heir. It doesn't matter if she has her family characteristic; as long as the other nobles believe she has they will chase after her.

Also, about the sterile thing, if you had paid attention you would have heard her explaining that the initial rumor "Froleytia Capistrano has an almost 100% chance of giving birth to a son" was blown out of proportion by the fact so many nobles were trying to court her and became "She will give a male heir to even the most impotent of men" and "She's so good in bed that these powerful nobles are desperately trying to get their hands on her". The important thing is that the rumors attract the attention of nobles towards her.

Also, I doubt that a female daughter of a noble family has the freedom to have any of those operations, especially since she's being considered as a marriage candidate for several important noble families.

Moral of the story: the nobles of HO are as dumb as their predecessor in the middle age that their way of thinking regarding how human biology works is just ridiculous and easily persuaded by (and act on) rumors. And these are supposed to be nobles who attend the best schools and received the best education in this HO-verse . Heck, today's royalties in our world are way more rational in comparison.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

What you're doing is blaming the victim.

I think she's blaming the writing more than anything, not necessarily the character itself.

On another note: after watching episode 10-11 back to back, still not impressed with the series. It’s still hovering on the "okay"-zone for me so far (thanks to the better aspects of the story). It could’ve been better if not for the in-your-face fanservice that remains almost consistent since episode 1. Heck, even Qwensy kinda (meta) commented on how outta-nowhere the fanservice is in the episode where Fro doing the pole dance.

[Pen3]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

If it's "practically" 100%, then it's NOT 100%. Call it 99.9% or whatever, but as a scientist (which is why this whole thing annoyed me in particular in the first place), I don't like it when they imply absolutes, when there isn't one.

The scientist can't get over the fact that "almost 100%" isn't the same as 100%, but is willing to accept Object mechs ruling the world? Maybe all anime shows should have a warning caption in beginning of episode that explains the show is not based on real life events or logic. Maybe then he could enjoy the show for what it is.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Moral of the story: the nobles of HO are as dumb as their predecessor in the middle age that their way of thinking regarding how human biology works is just ridiculous and easily persuaded by (and act on) rumors. And these are supposed to be nobles who attend the best schools and received the best education in this HO-verse . Heck, today's royalties in our world are way more rational in comparison.

Even in RL, there are lots of educated people that believe in incredibly stupid things, as a look at the year's news will show.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Even in RL, there are lots of educated people that believe in incredibly stupid things, as a look at the year's news will show.

I was talking specifically about believing in marrying a certain woman of a certain family will certainly give you a son when, in actuality (as Irene above mentioned), the female has next to nothing to do with it. It's the male's sperm that decides it. In our world, nobody with proper/high education will think (and act) like those HO-nobles about having a male-offspring for their families, except maybe for the highly superstitious people which kinda make the "highly educated"-part a moot point for them.

[Wandering Soul]

I wasn't expecting Froylaytia's back story to cause all this much discussion. Didn't think many people would focus on that.

[Nvis]

I feel so sad for my Frolaytia.

Frolaytia x Qwenthur will solve her situation.

Havia's already got his fiancé princess.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Well that explains why Frolaytia is such a tease to the boys.

Mind you not that she doesn't want to get married or have kids eventually she just doesn't want nobles using her body and being dominated.

The boys are actually her type. She can show her sexuality and dominate them being in control.

Havia would've been perfect if it weren't the fact he is engaged and in love.

Which leaves Qwenther but he isn't nobility. But if the Legitmate Kingdom is anything like Britain it is possible to acquire peerage.

But there is also Melinda who is attracted to Qwenther.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Moral of the story: the nobles of HO are as dumb as their predecessor in the middle age that their way of thinking regarding how human biology works is just ridiculous and easily persuaded by (and act on) rumors. And these are supposed to be nobles who attend the best schools and received the best education in this HO-verse . Heck, today's royalties in our world are way more rational in comparison.

I think you're vastly overestimating today's people.

Even highly educated neurosurgeons can believe and say and do the dumbest things.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I was talking specifically about believing in marrying a certain woman of a certain family will certainly give you a son when, in actuality (as Irene above mentioned), the female has next to nothing to do with it. It's the male's sperm that decides it. In our world, nobody with proper/high education will think (and act) like those HO-nobles about having a male-offspring for their families, except maybe for the highly superstitious people which kinda make the "highly educated"-part a moot point for them.

Maybe it's because I've been following on and off about the crazy news from America, but I think you're underestimating how much superstitious people can be regardless of their education or social status.

Originally Posted by the one above all

I wasn't expecting Froylaytia's back story to cause all this much discussion. Didn't think many people would focus on that.

Quite the opposite for me- I knew it would be the main focus because of how shocking it is.

[Botan_TM]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Moral of the story: the nobles of HO are as dumb as their predecessor in the middle age that their way of thinking regarding how human biology works is just ridiculous and easily persuaded by (and act on) rumors. And these are supposed to be nobles who attend the best schools and received the best education in this HO-verse . Heck, today's royalties in our world are way more rational in comparison.

These days royalties have no real power. And big power brings big irrationality

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I think you're vastly overestimating today's people.

Even highly educated neurosurgeons can believe and say and do the dumbest things.

Context, mate.

Everybody can do the dumbest things. We won’t go anywhere if we go too general like that. So, I was limiting the scope of my comment to HO’s nobles and royalties’ view of Frolaytia’s stupid “shag that girl and you’ll get yourself a boy”-status. Which in comparison, you’ll never see any today’s highly-educated nobles in our world do (let alone in a still-civilized future like HO portrayed). To add insult to injury, those HO nobles took that rumor (and superstition?) seriously to the point that it causes problem for Fro . After hearing that part, I can only shakes my head in disbelief (maybe similar to OH&S’s reaction). It almost like the author still being trapped in his view of nobles in the middle ages, not nobles of today (or future, in this case). Look at the kingdoms of Arabs and Europe today. They don’t act on something that involve the heir of their thrones based on some stupid rumors. Don’t believe me? Then find me an article of today’s highly educated nobles or royal members from any kingdom who decide to have a heir with someone based on a stupid thing like what happen in HO to disprove what I said.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Maybe it's because I've been following on and off about the crazy news from America, but I think you're underestimating how much superstitious people can be regardless of their education or social status.

That’s why I said “except”. It’s precisely for those type of people you mentioned. As for my further argument, see above.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Botan_TM

These days royalties have no real power.

They can still decide/choose someone to marry their royal member (or at least they can try). But I've never seen any attempt of a royal marriage based on stupid rumors like HO happened here.

Originally Posted by Botan_TM

And big power brings big irrationality

That depends on the person, actually. And certainly not every powerful person in our world is corrupt or stupid or irrational. Especially when it comes to deciding the future of their own heir.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Context, mate.

Everybody can do the dumbest things. We won’t go anywhere if we go too general like that. So, I was limiting the scope of my comment to HO’s nobles and royalties’ view of Frolaytia’s stupid “shag that girl and you’ll get yourself a boy”-status. Which in comparison, you’ll never see any today’s highly-educated nobles in our world do (let alone in a still-civilized future like HO portrayed). To add insult to injury, those HO nobles took that rumor (and superstition?) seriously to the point that it causes problem for Fro . After hearing that part, I can only shakes my head in disbelief (maybe similar to OH&S’s reaction). It almost like the author still being trapped in his view of nobles in the middle ages, not nobles of today (or future, in this case). Look at the kingdoms of Arabs and Europe today. They don’t act on something that involve the heir of their thrones based on some stupid rumors. Don’t believe me? Then find me an article of today’s highly educated nobles or royal members from any kingdom who decide to have a heir with someone based on a stupid thing like what happen in HO to disprove what I said.

To be fair, how many people do you know irl that have a family line documented to guarantee 99.9% male offsprings? Because that's the premise for this scandal right?

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

They can still decide/choose someone to marry their royal member (or at least they can try). But I've never seen any attempt of a royal marriage based on stupid rumors like HO happened here.

Nobody is going to officially declare that as a reason for marriage- The world would grill them for it.

[Faux Mecha]

i could have sworn what happened to the Bright Hopper is freaking hilarious, everyone talks it is the most cutting edge & latest powerful Object, combined with its egotistic pilot, it was then easily taken out by the enemy with no sweat, well there goes the money (& ego)

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

To be fair, how many people do you know irl that have a family line documented to guarantee 99.9% male offsprings? Because that's the premise for this scandal right?

Male offspring cannot be guaranteed even if you have 99.9% success rate beforehand (unless you're a crocodile or something). That’s a scientifical fact. That’s why I said the “screwing a certain girl and you’ll get a boy”-rumor is stupid to begin with and highly-educated nobles shouldn't bite it. Worse, the show make it such a big deal to make things even more ridiculous. I mean, it’s like doing gambling with dice or coin toss. Someone can consequtively hit good score or get the head for a hundred times, but each throw/toss always has 50/50 chance or less (given the guy does not cheat). And just like how each throw of a dice or each toss of a coin has 50/50 chance (or less), each time you bang and impregnate a girl, you always have 50/50 chance (or less, in some cases) in getting a boy. And somehow HO nobles didn't get that memo from their doctors.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Nobody is going to officially declare that as a reason for marriage- The world would grill them for it.

Or it never happened because today’s IRL nobles are smart enough to know that screwing a certain royal girl won’t guarantee you a son. It’s really no better than wives’ tales on how to get a boy during (and before) pregnancy. But doing what the wives’ tales tell you to do is minuscule in comparison to have your royal son marry a random royal girl just because she’s rumored to be able to guarantee a son. And that is something middle-age royalties would do, not today's highly educated ones.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Male offspring cannot be guaranteed even if you have 99.9% success rate beforehand (unless you're a crocodile or something). That’s a scientifical fact. That’s why I said the “screwing a certain girl and you’ll get a boy”-rumor is stupid to begin with and highly-educated nobles shouldn't bite it. Worse, the show make it such a big deal to make things even more ridiculous. I mean, it’s like doing gambling with dice or coin toss. Someone can consequtively hit good score or get the head for a hundred times, but each throw/toss always has 50/50 chance or less (given the guy does not cheat). And just like how each throw of a dice or each toss of a coin has 50/50 chance (or less), each time you bang and impregnate a girl, you always have 50/50 chance (or less, in some cases) in getting a boy. And somehow HO nobles didn't get that memo from their doctors.

But what if you could?

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Or it never happened because today’s IRL nobles are smart enough to know that screwing a certain royal girl won’t guarantee you a son. It’s really no better than wives’ tales on how to get a boy during (and before) pregnancy. But doing what the wives’ tales tell you to do is minuscule in comparison to have your royal son marry a random royal girl just because she’s rumored to be able to guarantee a son.

Or because there's no such ability in the real world, but what if you could?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

But what if you could?

Or because there's no such ability in the real world, but what if you could?

To quote Dr. Ellie Sattler from Jurassic Park:

"You have no control. That (control) is the illusion!"

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Oh, I did pay attention , and no she really didn't answer his question when asked either.

And about the "almost 100%" thing, I will answer with the same thing that I will answer every other person who brings it up. If it's "practically" 100%, then it's NOT 100%. Call it 99.9% or whatever, but as a scientist (which is why this whole thing annoyed me in particular in the first place), I don't like it when they imply absolutes, when there isn't one.

As a scientist, implying a precision that isn't there should bother you more than the proper use of the word "almost". Unless it's to people who are strangely deaf to it. I doubt she perused her family tree with a spreadsheet open to calculate the exact percentage.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

To be fair, how many people do you know irl that have a family line documented to guarantee 99.9% male offsprings? Because that's the premise for this scandal right?

Considering the number of family lines in the world, even with a normal 50% chance, there's bound to be a family line with actual 100% male for a few generations. Like five. Or ten. The odds for that family to be a noble one in the Legitimate Kingdom, though, I don't know. I'll point out they have a few things going for them there, like being more likely than any other type of family to just stop making children after producing a male heir.

[SPARTAN 119]

Hmmm... As for the whole biology behind Floretia/Frolaytia/Fritolay's desirability due to supposed gender ratios, It is quite possible that it could be a Anh Minh said, a random abberation- essentially a family that had mostly male children for five or ten generation, but if you looked at it over the longer run, the rations would be even- those few generations would be essentially statistical noise.

Alternatively, it could simply be a "fantasy" element on the same level as oh... I don't know, hovering nigh-indestructible land-battleships!

I think the bigger point her is further development of Frolayia's character, as well as, between what we've seen in from the other major powers in the world, developing the world of Heavy Object into something of a "crapsack world" (I believe the author of the novels essentially said that Heavy Object is a world that sucks to live in):

Think about it: of the major powers we have seen so far, we have a corporate dictatorship, a crazed theocracy who kills anyone who does not agree with their faith, and an aristocracy reminiscent of pre-revolutionary France. I can't really give any more details on these because novel spoilers.

The revelation of Frolaytia's past is in part to add a bit more detail to the "crapsack world" of Heavy Object, specifically how, among the nobility of the Legitimate Kingdom, women are essentially given the choice of military service or acting as a "baby factory", as well as the reveal that fact that Frolaytia is not exactly content with the the system.

[prototype_sky]

Froylaytia's back story feels like the writers trying to incite some doujins

[Tormenk]

Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119

The revelation of Frolaytia's past is in part to add a bit more detail to the "crapsack world" of Heavy Object, specifically how, among the nobility of the Legitimate Kingdom, women are essentially given the choice of military service or acting as a "baby factory", as well as the reveal that fact that Frolaytia is not exactly content with the the system.

Thing is, Fro's backstory isn't really convincing in her decision between choosing to live on the battlefield as a good commander against living as a tool to the nobility system. It would have been fine to just state she would rather make a difference out in the field versus being forced to be a tool for the personal ends of others'. Adding in her unique heritage feels unnecessary and done for the sake of being 'special' in the arranged marriage trope.

Not like it plays into the whole 'Objects have changed the world' factor down into societal conditions either, it would have been impressive if it was but sadly it isn't so the entire set-up is rather lacklustre on the whole.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tormenk

Thing is, Fro's backstory isn't really convincing in her decision between choosing to live on the battlefield as a good commander against living as a tool to the nobility system. It would have been fine to just state she would rather make a difference out in the field versus being forced to be a tool for the personal ends of others'. Adding in her unique heritage feels unnecessary and done for the sake of being 'special' in the arranged marriage trope.

Not like it plays into the whole 'Objects have changed the world' factor down into societal conditions either, it would have been impressive if it was but sadly it isn't so the entire set-up is rather lacklustre on the whole.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more . In fact, the above issue is one of many things that made this episode received a low score from me.