To Aru Kagaku no Railgun S - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Jaden]

Couldn't frogface M.D. put the girl on therapeutic hypothermia or something to buy time while they find a cure?

I'm not that well versed in medicine, and she is a somewhat altered human, but I'd think that with Academy City's technology, they could at least prolong the life of someone that's about to die from poisoning.

[Primary Consult]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Couldn't frogface M.D. put the girl on therapeutic hypothermia or something to buy time while they find a cure?

I'm not that well versed in medicine, and she is a somewhat altered human, but I'd think that with Academy City's technology, they could at least prolong the life of someone that's about to die from poisoning.

The best explanation I can think of for not going that route is he's unsure of how any "conventional" (in Academy City's definition of conventional) treatments might affect her. He's always *sure* of the outcome before trying anything. Trying something anyway without considering how the differences would affect her is not his style. I'm sure he'd be more willing to try things like that as the hours run out, but for now the do-nothing approach gives her at least 72 hours, whereas trying something untested could reduce that number (maybe the poison was designed to become more potent in lower temperatures?).

[HandofFate]

cracked up @ the hannibal lector style sequence at the end lol

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by eavein18

Honestly I would have little to no problem if she only tells Kuroko... that is...

They've all dealt with a Kihara before, and Mikoto didn't go deeply into the fact that Academy City itself is corrupt (although based on the fact an influential official like Therestina that they've dealt with and found corrupt, it isn't hard to piece together). Plus Uiharu is good at hacking and gathering information, Mikoto even considered getting her involved during the Sisters incident because of her skills. Telling Saten is more suspect, but she doesn't have to get involved on the front lines, but it would still be nice for her to know, seeing as she is staying the closest to the kid.

Ignorance is a dangerous thing.

[eavein18]

This.... extra arc is seriously a headache and a heartache .__.

It is quite hard to explain stuff without breaking the 'no spoiler' rule....

Let's just say Saten needs a lot more common sense and survival instinct...

While Uiharu needs to find somewhere other then the Judgment branch if she want to hack something.... and put up some anti-trace/hack back

[Haak]

Originally Posted by leukrota

And you accuse me of using a straw man?

They may be used as hostages is not the same as they will be used as hostages. It's not the sole tactic someone from the dark side can use, and it also depends on their objectives and particular strategies. Recalling Mikoto's last incursion into the dark side, none of her friends got taken, and they knew who she was (after ITEM's incident).

But if they are participants (and Mikoto knows that they won't cross their arms if they are informed) there is no longer a may, but with a complete certainty that they will get the opponent's enmity. Then becoming hostage would not be their only concern, but getting tortured or killed. In fact, the latter 2 would also be more likely than the former.

No it isn't, but given how Anh Min was talking about worst case scenarios, I only felt it prudent to point out that if we're really talking about worst case scenarios, then being a participant isn't going to make a difference.

Hmm... I'm not following Triple_R's argument, but yours.

I'm not making it up (and I think we have a strong dissension in how we interpret Kuroko getting chewed up), but whatever. Let me take another approach:

As an organization, Judgement needs standard procedures as to how to engage criminals (just as everything else), adjustings things on the fly is a recipe for disaster.

It also cannot raise the bar too high and depend on having a "hero" like Kuroko in each team. In fact, I doubt the average team is even remotely as good as Kuroko's. For example, they were falling like flies in the Graviton incident.

So it's only reasonable, IMO, to keep their involvement low whenever there is risk. There is indeed no need for them to take the risk, Anti-Skill is well equipped and trained to deal with most situations.

I think the problem is that you insist in using Kuroko as the standard, while I believe Mii would be a better sample. She is skillful, wise, and very importantly, doesn't take unnecessary risks... except at the time of big spider, but personal stuff ain't the norm.

My point is the same as Triple_R's in regarding Kuroko and Uiharu's experiences in their line of duty. Whether or not they're even the standard is a moot point.

But i do appreciate that the show has been highly vague on just what Judgement's relation to Academy City is.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Haak

My point is the same as Triple_R's in regarding Kuroko and Uiharu's experiences in their line of duty. Whether or not they're even the standard is a moot point.

Moot point? half the argument was about Judgement's comparison to police officers, why did you even argue about it if it was moot?

And the other half wasn't about Kuroko's (or Uiharu's) competence, but about what are the dangers from getting involved with the dark side.

... In the end what? are we discussing different things? what a nice waste of time, I'm out.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by leukrota

Moot point? half the argument was about Judgement's comparison to police officers, why did you even argue about it if it was moot?

You took issue with Triple_R comparing Judgement to police officers and i wasn't sure whether you knew it was besides the point and was just correcting him on a minor point or if you were actually making an argument against his point as a whole so i was trying to be nice. Even now I'm not entirely sure. You said you weren't addressing Triple_R's point but now you've expressed surprise at the fact that it wasn't relevant to Triple_R's point to begin with.

And the other half wasn't about Kuroko's (or Uiharu's) competence, but about what are the dangers from getting involved with the dark side.

I'm sure if you read Triple_R's points then he makes it pretty clear that he's talking about their competencies:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I really don't get the argument that Mikoto shouldn't have told her friends about the full situation because it could "get them hurt".

Good grief, people, Kuroko is a high-level Esper herself. She can take care of herself. Heck, back in the Level Upper arc, she managed to single-handedly defeat many dangerous Espers, as well as one hulking brute that had her caught in a very nasty pinch for a bit.

Also, Kuroko and Uiharu are both in Judgement. That job is very comparable to being a police officer in real life. These people are use to getting involved in dangerous and risky situations. Sure, they're not as aware of the darker sides of Academy City as Mikoto now is, but they probably should be made aware of it given what they do.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'd say that Kuroko gets a bit of a bigger breadth to work within by virtue of her domineering personality and her Level 4 Esper credentials. In other words, being a high level Esper means that Anti-Skill and Judgment will give her a bit more range than they might an average Judgement member.

At this juncture, it should be pointed out that I made the Judgement/police officer comparison simply to demonstrate that Mikoto's friends are already involved in a "law and order" organization, and the way they carry out their duties in that organization puts them in dangerous/risky situations anyway. Now, maybe that's not true of your average Judgement member, but it certainly seems to be true of Kuroko, and even Uiharu to a lesser degree.

Kuroko more or less acts like a police officer, and clearly nobody is truly trying to stop her from acting that way, so she's definitely someone who's used to rushing into risky situations. Which makes Mikoto's decision to tell Kuroko the truth about Febri less of a problem, imo. Mikoto isn't telling this to an average civilian, she's telling it to someone who acts like a police officer (and in fact does have some measure of authority backing herself up).

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Haak

You said you weren't addressing Triple_R's point but now you've expressed surprise at the fact that it wasn't relevant to Triple_R's point to begin with.

Surprise (or more like incredulity) at you contesting it in the first place, now that you say it's irrelevant. He didn't contest my correction so why would I argue with him? You're the one who replied to me so from then on I was addressing those replies.

How is that so hard to understand?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by leukrota

Surprise (or more like incredulity) at you contesting it in the first place, now that you say it's irrelevant.

I guess I'm not making myself clear here.

It's only become clear that your point was irrelevant just now, now that you've brought in your "other approach". Before you made it sound like what Kuroko was doing was outside her jurisdiction and not what Judgement does, but now it's been made clear that what Kuroko et al does it what Judgement can be capable of, but just not what they usually do. That distinction is important. If Kuroko was acting outside her jurisdiction, then that means she isn't comparable to a police officer. But if she's simply higher than the standard, then she's still comparable to a police officer, regardless of the rest of the Judgement is.

I still don't know what your point is btw. Are you contesting whether Kuroko's branch are comparable to police officers or whether the rest of judgement is comparable?

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Haak

It's only become clear that your point was irrelevant just now, now that you've brought in your "other approach". Before you made it sound like what Kuroko was doing was outside her jurisdiction and not what Judgement does, but now it's been made clear that what Kuroko et al does it what Judgement can be capable of, but just not what they usually do.

What "I made it sound like" is just what my "other approach" is addressing too. Using logic, which apparently is also moot to you.

Judgement is not supposed to engage dangerous criminals, from my perspective, and thus Kuroko acts outside her duties. That's precisely it.

Originally Posted by Haak

Are you contesting whether Kuroko's branch are comparable to police officers or whether the rest of judgement is comparable?

All of them, it's an organization, not a collage of unrelated entities. Having one branch follow different rules than the rest is what makes less sense to me so far.


... But I'm tired of this discussion, and now I don't even know if you care or if you're arguing just for the sake of discussion. So let's please stop this and agree to disagree.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by leukrota

What "I made it sound like" is just what my "other approach" is addressing too. Using logic, which apparently is also moot to you.

Judgement is not supposed to engage dangerous criminals, from my perspective, and thus Kuroko acts outside her duties. That's precisely it.

I see. So you're other approach wasn't different. In which case it's not a moot point after all.

Of course you're clearly wrong anyway. Whilst there is some ambiguity to what Judgement's duties are exactly, there's no doubt that the story portrays Kuroko as acting within her duties when engaging criminals. This is made abundantly clear within the first five pages of the manga. Otherwise it she'd be a massive hypocrite and people would be wondering how she's still even in Judgement if she keeps consistently going against the rules and acts as a vigilante.

All of them, it's an organization, not a collage of unrelated entities. Having one branch follow different rules than the rest is what makes less sense to me so far.

We're talking about standards not rules. Or at least I assumed you were...

... But I'm tired of this discussion, and now I don't even know if you care or if you're arguing just for the sake of discussion. So let's please stop this and agree to disagree.

I won't but you can.

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Haak

Of course you're clearly wrong anyway. Whilst there is some ambiguity to what Judgement's duties are exactly, there's no doubt that the story portrays Kuroko as acting within her duties when engaging criminals. This is made abundantly clear within the first five pages of the manga. Otherwise it she'd be a massive hypocrite and people would be wondering how she's still even in Judgement if she keeps consistently going against the rules and acts as a vigilante.

Dunno about massive, but I do consider her a bit of a hypocrite, not obeying reglaments as much as she preaches about it.

But she doesn't act like a vigilante, a vigilante acts as judge and executioner, Kuroko doesn't. She acts as if she was a police officer (or AC equivalent) , but that doesn't mean she is one.

About the part you mention at the start of the manga, harrassment can't quite qualify as a dangerous crime. A voluntary force should usually be enough for that.

Anyway, to me it's more important the common sense of not giving an underage volunteer the responsibilities associated with an officer... And the logical statement I made with that "other approach" which I don't feel like repeating.

Also, your argument is very subjective. To use it to categorically say that "I'm clearly wrong" is too bold, if you ask me. I'll respect your perspective, but stop acting as if anything else is unthinkable.

[Haak]

It's not subjective. I just don't think you understand the concept of exposition, nor the definition of vigilante, for that matter.

The part in the manga was about assault, and it's only an example. Another example is the fact that Konori (who you consider to be more a more appropriate reference point) also engages in dangerous situations such as dealing with bomb attacks (Level Upper arc), taking down gang members (Big Spider arc) and chasing giant mechas in her motorcycle (Poltergeist arc).

You talk about common sense of not giving an underaged volunteer the responsibilities associated with an officer when said underaged volunteer can teleport needles into your brain. If it's violating common sense, then that just means it's a plot hole in the same vein of Kuroko's hypocrisy. Your explanation only raises more questions than it answers.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by leukrota

What "I made it sound like" is just what my "other approach" is addressing too. Using logic, which apparently is also moot to you.

Judgement is not supposed to engage dangerous criminals, from my perspective, and thus Kuroko acts outside her duties. That's precisely it.



All of them, it's an organization, not a collage of unrelated entities. Having one branch follow different rules than the rest is what makes less sense to me so far.


... But I'm tired of this discussion, and now I don't even know if you care or if you're arguing just for the sake of discussion. So let's please stop this and agree to disagree.

I don't know the context of the debate, but wasn't that really just because Kuroko was in-training still and because of Konorii's ineptness or was that really because judgement isn't supposed to engage criminals?

I definitely agree that Kuroko oversteps her bounds though. She should join Anti-skill instead

[Draco Spirit]

Kuroko going to probably end up being one of those police offices who throws in there badge at dramatic moments >.<