Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Right, those constant comments in the vein of "OMG, GC is just like series X, WTF?" are positive comments.

In my defense, the only thing I compared the series to is to stuff that I don't like: Eureka Seven's initial episodes, Independence Day, Battlefield Earth, and Makoto Shinkai films (this last one is a bit of a stretch). So why the heck should I be happy seeing them again?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by felix

I'm calling FUD. Show me quotes.

Read back through the backlog of the last three weeks yourself. They are in there, unless the mods went way back after they locked the thread.

Originally Posted by felix

There's nothing wrong with discussing the present and the past. It is however wrong to discuss purely in the realm of unfulfiled posibilities in the plot.

Anyway this is turning (if it hasn't been already) into a sort of chewbacca defense. And sadly I fear it's incuraging others to just follow in conga line because of how easy and sugary it is: "burn the sinners!" and all that. If you want to convert those of us that don't like the character then describe why you like him in hopes that maybe we'll agree and symphathize with your conviction. Don't just tell us we're not allowed not to like him because of some of your personal issues, and something or other to do with other sites.

Oh and I mean no disrespect, just trying to keep it as short and to the point as possible.

Well. It's not so much that I particularly like any of the main characters yet, but rather that I am withholding judgement until the ( again, quite obvious through the flashbacks ) background they share has been explained further.

And make no mistake, the "male anime whiner lead" archetype annoys me to no end... it's no mistake that Alto Saotome from Macross Frontier is one of my favorite male anime leads, because he sees a problem ( Vajra attacking Frontier ) and goes and does something about it. No whining, just taking appropiate action.

However, Shu somehow escapes this paradigm. I think it is because his general reaction is understandable. He lacks self-esteem and he thinks he can't do anything to change the world. A lot of people in the world are like this.

It is a bit of strange attitude to have when he clearly can change the world now, after receiving the Void Genome. That he continues to exhibit it, coupled together with his current memory loss of his childhood with Gai and "Inori", leads me to suspect that his own personality is mostly a construct, foisted on him when something freaky went down in his childhood. I also suspect that his mother isn't his mother at all ( her character model makes her look way too young for that... IMO, of course ), but rather his government-mandated minder.

That he can be sent back to school ( which will apparently happen in some fashion next episode ), after he had been arrested is another sign that the government is also in the know that there is something going on behind the scenes. Yeah, his records were purged, but what does that help with Mr. Head Researcher ( whose name is "Shuichiro"... that may have more significance than is apparent at the moment ) and some of the other people who already know who he is?

There are still aspects of the puzzle which are elusive... why doesn't Gai seem to remember their shared childhood? Is Inori aware of it, is she even the same person as that girl from the flashbacks? How do Gais and Inoris powers work?

But that is all something which can be explored during the rest of the first half of the season. The show clearly is going somewhere and it shouldn't pull out all the stops so early in the series.

And that is why these responses here drive me crazy... can I be the only one who is connecting the dots? From what I see, those plot points are clearly being set up and I wonder why people aren't seeing them.

Or maybe I just really like Inoris character design and the cool music which plays when Shu pulls out Inoris void. Whatever.


BTW, are we sure that it is Inori giving Gai blood transfusions? Or could it be the other way around? I mean, if we go by the hypothesis that Inori is some sort of clone or cyborg, maybe she needs constant infusions from Gai? It would explain why she says that she "owes everything" to him.

[Archon_Wing]

Oh, great, more meta-discussion. Well I'll try to summarize thoughts everything here:

-- Shocking as it might seem, people watch shows for different reasons. Personally, I watch it for the fanservice. That is enough for some folks and not enough for others. Regardless, it gives an incentive to watch regardless of what I think about anything else.

-- The show might get better in terms of character and plot. But for people to have this willing to give them credit, the show needs to purchase some of it. Whether it has or not is up to the viewer.

-- Dropping it now because one doesn't like it is an issue of preference. If I dropped every show I didn't like after 6/22 episodes, my favorites list would be half as big. It's a gamble; I know, but it might be worth it. Does Guilty Crown have enough incentive to chase this game? I think it's +Expected Value at this point still, and because I still have a reason to see.

-- Credit is given when it is due. Not a moment earlier Nobody can divine the intentions of the staff unless you have connections. You can speculate, but trying to say otherwise is being arrogant.

-- Some disagreements about the show are overbearing. Just look at ANN's review. But not all.

-- Making and extrapolating assumptions about people due to their opinions over a single show is far reaching and arrogant. I would recommend to everyone to not instruct others how to watch anime. That would be telling others how to think. Sure recommendations are fine, but demands are not. In any case, don't be an internet psychologist. It may be shocking to believe, but most people including myself cannot divine the intentions of others, and doing so is plain presumptuous. Yes, you don't know everything, I don't know everything, and we don't know everything. Don't assume otherwise.

[Soji]

Mmmm guys I have a question:

how does erasing Shu’s records of his involvement with FP help, aside from the blatant excuse to put the focus back on the school-aspect of this show?
I mean, at least two of the ‘higher ups’ know he’s part of FP- wouldn’t that mean he’d be heavily under surveillance?
and, I can’t imagine GHQ will be too happy about both of their satellites being obliterated; doesn’t that go against the deal Gai made?

At least the entire agreement only served to Gai for the mission of the next episode.

[felix]

He can pass security terminals, like say the train station. That's about it.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Read back through the backlog of the last three weeks yourself. They are in there, unless the mods went way back after they locked the thread.

There are parallels, but aren't we talking about dismissals of the entire show here? I've read pretty much all the posts, the only ones like that are from people who've dropped it (as in explictily stated), and as far as I'm concerned if that's their last post on the show there's no reason to be over critical of it. As I mentioned in my other post parallels to another show doesn't necesarly translate to "bad thing".

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well. It's not so much that I particularly like any of the main characters yet, but rather that I am withholding judgement until the ( again, quite obvious through the flashbacks ) background they share has been explained further.

And make no mistake, the "male anime whiner lead" archetype annoys me to no end... it's no mistake that Alto Saotome from Macross Frontier is one of my favorite male anime leads, because he sees a problem ( Vajra attacking Frontier ) and goes and does something about it. No whining, just taking appropiate action.

However, Shu somehow escapes this paradigm. I think it is because his general reaction is understandable. He lacks self-esteem and he thinks he can't do anything to change the world. A lot of people in the world are like this.

It is a bit of strange attitude to have when he clearly can change the world now, after receiving the Void Genome. That he continues to exhibit it, coupled together with his current memory loss of his childhood with Gai and "Inori", leads me to suspect that his own personality is mostly a construct, foisted on him when something freaky went down in his childhood. I also suspect that his mother isn't his mother at all ( her character model makes her look way too young for that... IMO, of course ), but rather his government-mandated minder.

That he can be sent back to school ( which will apparently happen in some fashion next episode ), after he had been arrested is another sign that the government is also in the know that there is something going on behind the scenes. Yeah, his records were purged, but what does that help with Mr. Head Researcher ( whose name is "Shuichiro"... that may have more significance than is apparent at the moment ) and some of the other people who already know who he is?

There are still aspects of the puzzle which are elusive... why doesn't Gai seem to remember their shared childhood? Is Inori aware of it, is she even the same person as that girl from the flashbacks? How do Gais and Inoris powers work?

But that is all something which can be explored during the rest of the first half of the season. The show clearly is going somewhere and it shouldn't pull out all the stops so early in the series.

And that is why these responses here drive me crazy... can I be the only one who is connecting the dots? From what I see, those plot points are clearly being set up and I wonder why people aren't seeing them.

Or maybe I just really like Inoris character design and the cool music which plays when Shu pulls out Inoris void. Whatever.

You got some extra dots there.

Obviously this a difference in expectations. Most shows I've seen with this "mystery" element don't spill the beans until the last two or three episodes as the big reveal and series closing event. You know, the usual excuse for the character to do a 180. It's sometimes not even a secret or anything, just a tension string (eg. 00 season 2 and the love birds). I don't necesarly hate these kinds of plot devices, but I'm not too excited about the last episodes yet either so this doesn't really balance it out for me at all. Even if it's not gonna happen then, until it actually happens I'm not holding my breath on it. I'd rather not think about it to be honest, if it does end up like that with the current development I don't know how briliant the reveal has to be to not just come off as cheap. I liked 00 for example but the whole love thing felt pretty contrived and unnecesary in the end.

Either way like I said in my post for this episode, and others have said too, Shu is becoming a little more bearable with some of the recent events (no hope for redemption in sight, but still).

Originally Posted by magnuskn

BTW, are we sure that it is Inori giving Gai blood transfusions? Or could it be the other way around? I mean, if we go by the hypothesis that Inori is some sort of clone or cyborg, maybe she needs constant infusions from Gai? It would explain why she says that she "owes everything" to him.

We actually don't even know if Inori is actually giving blood. Either way if there is some blood involved Inori can't be the reciever since we saw Gai lying down and Inori sitting on the chair.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Soji

Mmmm guys I have a question:

how does erasing Shu’s records of his involvement with FP help, aside from the blatant excuse to put the focus back on the school-aspect of this show?
I mean, at least two of the ‘higher ups’ know he’s part of FP- wouldn’t that mean he’d be heavily under surveillance?
and, I can’t imagine GHQ will be too happy about both of their satellites being obliterated; doesn’t that go against the deal Gai made?

At least the entire agreement only served to Gai for the mission of the next episode.

Well, I assume they'd assume those baddies are less likely to start shit at school and blow their cover. It's harder to claim you blew up a school to stop terrorism. The other collateral damage can be blamed in the conflict with FP. Now, it does seem they have no qualms with doing this anyways because they like to kill people when they feel like it (and could frame FP for any acts of violence), but eh... nobody said either side was that competent to begin with.

[Kirarakim]

Okay I just want to say this whole we are being unfair to the characters because they "will get better" is ridiculous. It shouldn't be about the destination but about the journey of the character. That is what is important (at least to me).

If I don't care about the characters development then why would I care if the character is going to get stronger. Shu bores me as a character. I am absolutely sure he will get stronger but that means nothing to me because I don't care about him in the first place.

And it's not that I don't like the character trope of weak characters getting stronger. I mean Simon from Gurren Lagann is a favorite of mine, but the difference is I loved him even before he got stronger. And heck everyone can tell you how much I love Shouma on the Penguindrum threads. And that's just two examples.

If people care about Shu as a character then fine I am not judging you but don't judge me for not caring about his story.

And basically I dropped Guilty Crown because there is really nothing that keeps me watching. Yes there are series I watched that certainly got better but there is usually something that made me want to continue in the first place. Guilty Crown just does not have that for me.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by felix

You got some extra dots there.

Obviously this a difference in expectations. Most shows I've seen with this "mystery" element don't spill the beans until the last two or three episodes as the big reveal and series closing event. You know, the usual excuse for the character to do a 180. It's sometimes not even a secret or anything, just a tension string (eg. 00 season 2 and the love birds). I don't necesarly hate these kinds of plot devices, but I'm not too excited about the last episodes yet either so this doesn't really balance it out for me at all. Even if it's not gonna happen then, until it actually happens I'm not holding my breath on it. I'd rather not think about it to be honest, if it does end up like that with the current development I don't know how briliant the reveal has to be to not just come off as cheap. I liked 00 for example but the whole love thing felt pretty contrived and unnecesary in the end.

I think they cannot keep up the flashback approach until the end of the show... this is a two cour show, unless I am mistaken and even people sympathetic to the characters, like me, would turn on them if they couldn't grow until so very, very late.

I expect some major stuff going down at the middle of the season. I guess my best example would be Witch Hunter Robin, where half-way during the show suddenly the whole premise show was switched around.

Originally Posted by felix

Either way like I said in my post for this episode, and others have said too, Shu is becoming a little more bearable with some of the recent events (no hope for redemption in sight, but still).

Well, as I said, I find him more tolerable than most people here do.

Originally Posted by felix

We actually don't even know if Inori is actually giving blood. Either way if there is some blood involved Inori can't be the reciever since we saw Gai lying down and Inori sitting on the chair.

Ah, okay. It was just speculation.

[felix]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, as I said, I find him more tolerable than most people here do.

My statement isn't denying that. (not your conviction or anyone else's)

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I think they cannot keep up the flashback approach until the end of the show... this is a two cour show, unless I am mistaken and even people sympathetic to the characters, like me, would turn on them if they couldn't grow until so very, very late.

I expect some major stuff going down at the middle of the season. I guess my best example would be Witch Hunter Robin, where half-way during the show suddenly the whole premise show was switched around.

00 was a 2 cour show too. Hell those two characters I gave as an example, they were there since S1 so 50+ episodes, but they were properly developed in season 1 so I didn't have any issue with them. But yeah, it can happen.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

And it's not that I don't like the character trope of weak characters getting stronger. I mean Simon from Gurren Lagann is a favorite of mine, but the difference is I loved him even before he got stronger.

Ah, thanks for reminding me how much I hated Simon and thought he was annoying to no end until he became a Kamina clone. It just shows how characters can improve no matter how annoying they may seem at first.

I, personally, don't have a problem with Shu's current development. I actually think it is on a better pace than it was with Simon, but that is my personal opinion. If Simon can do it, Shu can do it as well.

[felix]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I, personally, don't have a problem with Shu's current development. I actually think it is on a better pace than it was with Simon, but that is my personal opinion. If Simon can do it, Shu can do it as well.

Simon had determination, kind of the handicap people been pointing at Shu.

Gai is also no Kamina.

Well there are other elements that do fit though.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Ah, thanks for reminding me how much I hated Simon and thought he was annoying to no end until he became a Kamina clone. It just shows how characters can improve no matter how annoying they may seem at first.

Well I actually don't think Simon became a Kamina clone, in fact I strongly disagree but well this is not a thread for that discussion.

And also my point was Simon never annoyed me even when he wasn't a strong character but well that definitely comes down to personal taste. And it's the same with whether you can appreciate Shu's character or not.

But really my main problem Guilty Crown wise is not Shu but Inori. I don't like her character type or I should say I don't like how I feel her character type is being treated in the story.

[pinoscotto]

for me the important thing is the characters to be well characterized. if most of people hate shu i think that probably he is well chracterized, the show wanted to demonstrated that he is a pussy and the purpose was reached. you can say you don't like him, but the same is for a guy you know in real life

yeah I know, my english is poor, sorry

[felix]

Originally Posted by pinoscotto

for me the important thing is the characters to be well characterized. if most of people hate shu i think that probably he is well chracterized, the show wanted to demonstrated that he is a pussy and the purpose was reached. you can say you don't like him, but the same is for a guy you know in real life

yeah I know, my english is poor, sorry

But your logic is strong.

I'm not sure how I feel about a character playing the role of a "bad character".

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by felix

But your logic is strong.

I'm not sure how I feel about a character playing the role of a "bad character".

To me, "bad character" and unlikeable and uninteresting character is a different thing. Yuki from Future Diary? Great. The mains from Seinfeld? Great. Minko from Hanasaku Iroha? Combination of "die" and "snore". Wikus from District 9? Shut up and make the movie about Christopher.

[felix]

Ok I think I know the answer to the little brain teaser now. If the character is suppose to be intentionally hated (as in you're suppose to like hating him) then there has to be a reason for the characterization working like that. Something like how it works for antagonists; good ones anyway.

[ZGMF-X10A]

I wouldn't say episode 6 was great but it wasn't bad. I wonder who's the person with orange hair when Inori's void was coming out. Isn't Inori's void a sword but the one in this episode is a beam launcher. Maybe her void is evolving or awakening some new powers.

[bigdeath]

I though this lattest episode was very enjoyable, being able to see more of Gai personality. Its nice to know that hes not a heartless cold manipulative bastard and Shu responded to that.

It still remains to be seen what exactly are the Palor's goals besides beating the oppressive GHQ? I feel like theres more to this story and that girl that Inori looks like seems to be the key.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by ZGMF-X10A

I wonder who's the person with orange hair when Inori's void was coming out. Isn't Inori's void a sword but the one in this episode is a beam launcher. Maybe her void is evolving or awakening some new powers.

I am sure we will find out more concerning the orange hair girl. She is repeatedly shown in Shu's memory, and it looks like Gai has her pendant.

For the beam launcher, it was shown that Shu combined the gravity launcher from Kenji's void with Inori's Sword void, creating the gun saber.

Since the void is the soul/heart of a person, I wonder if they will ever explore what happens to the void if that person's heart will change? For example, if Inori is all lovey dovey with Shu, will her sword suddenly come out as chocolate hearts instead?

[djmaca]

Originally Posted by felix

Ok I think I know the answer to the little brain teaser now. If the character is suppose to be intentionally hated (as in you're suppose to like hating him) then there has to be a reason for the characterization working like that. Something like how it works for antagonists; good ones anyway.

I think that's what actually going on here: Shu is supposed to be everything that a hero or villain isn't: He's idealistic, weak-willed, gullible and doesn't like the responsibility everyone is putting on his shoulders, nor would he like to take responsibility of his failures, as he said last episode.

But we cannot blame him for it.