Athrun Zala vs. Char Aznable

[SNT1]

-J has 11 beam sabers and can use 8 of them simultaneously. So what? What's Athrun gonna do, swing all 8 of them at once? And make himself look like a total idiot doing it. And he can't deflect beams coming form 7 different directions with his beam sabers. (6 funnels and the Sazabi itself)

but he sure can dodge some and deflect some, and looking like an idiot has really nothing to do with this arguement :P

Having a beam shield really doesn't matter for the I-J since it's just a shield in the end. It doesn't give him much more defenseive ability than a normal anti-beam shield.

err, mis-bolded the shield.

The Sazabi is big and bulky, but as shown in CCA, it has more than enough thrusters to make it highly maneiverable and fast. It was keeping up with the Nu Gundam. That says it all.

uh-huh. according to mahq, Nu Gundam only has 1.55 Gs worth of acceleration. (In fact, Sazabi was faster). The GP03 had 2.69Gs worth, and even the GP01FB had 3.16. (Yep, once again Char loses to an inferior MS)

And Char has far more experience than Athrun on MS combat, and he clearly has the reaction speed to dodge anything Athrun throws at him.

this is actually the only arguement I believe where Char is clearly >>> Athrun. (experience)

[SNT1]

off-topic:

is it just me, or the link to Page 2 of discussion throws me back on Page 1, not to mention the incredibly long loading times?

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by SNT1

Sure, Char >> Rey, but then again, ask yourself how Athrun would have a hard time dodgin funnels? Char has even less funnels, giving Athrun less of a hassle.

He can also defelect incoming beams, thanks to his multiple beam blades. (See IJ deflect Shinn's boomerangs)

As for the mega particle chest gun, I dont remember it having zero firing time, but if it does, il drop the big gun arguement

Not really when the funnels are each being guided by Char's mind and again him being an actual newtype. I wouldn't compare Shinn's bomerangs to Char's funnels for obvious reasons. And like I said the point is that Char still has the advantage of being a newtype.

Well, being a newtype doesnt always = win. If you were an MS and a newtype, and an incoming MS tries to shoot you down, as a newtype you would see it coming, but can you: A: react fast enough to avoid it? and B: Do you have the equipment enough to avoid it?

The idea is to see it coming before the action is acutally done and that it remains that Sazabi has multiple thrusters to make sure its size isn't a hindrance on speed.

from Wikipedia:


yep, thats 11 sabers, and I think athrun can use 8 of em at a time. That doesnt even count the beam guns.

Add to the fact Athrun -> Seed Mode hasnt shown any form of weakness (never lost).

I know for a fact that Char is a very skilled pilot, but one open miss by Char equals 8 opportunites for Athrun to sever a body part.

I wont include arguements on IJ's grapple hook or sazabi's missiles since they probably wont have any effect on each other.

What Shinji said.

And it remains that it was a matter of Char losing to a superior pilot, who also happend to have better funnels.

[Shinji103]

Yeah something's screwy with this thread. Somehow I triple-posted.

Originally Posted by SNT1

uh-huh. according to mahq, Nu Gundam only has 1.55 Gs worth of acceleration. (In fact, Sazabi was faster). The GP03 had 2.69Gs worth, and even the GP01FB had 3.16. (Yep, once again Char loses to an inferior MS)

Maneuverability and acceleration are not the same thing. The acceleration is talking about its main thrusters when they're used for travelling. It's not talking about the scores of maneuvering thrusters all over the Nu Gundam. According to the MG model booklet, it has about 18-14 maneuvering thrusters all over its body.

[viper]

Acceleration is going from say 0 to 60. Manuverability is being able to turn and twist like crazy while going from 0 to 60.

Having high acceleration simply means you can get to a higher speed quickly. High manuverability means being able to change course/direction quickly.

[Obi-Wan]

I would say Mu is more of CE's Char-type character but okay. Athrun at his best and Char at his worst would be a good battle. Char as he was in CCA would toast Athrun no doubt, but at any other time it would be close. CE's MS battles really lack the skill, depth, and choreography that UC's battles had though. I don't think it's really fair to compare. My crossover dream battles are:

Nu Gundam v Strike Freedom
Hyaku Shiki v Akatsuki (Mu as pilot, not Cagalli)

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by SNT-1

yep, thats 11 sabers, and I think athrun can use 8 of em at a time. That doesnt even count the beam guns.

Add to the fact Athrun -> Seed Mode hasnt shown any form of weakness (never lost).

I know for a fact that Char is a very skilled pilot, but one open miss by Char equals 8 opportunites for Athrun to sever a body part.

My friend you are ignoring Char's abilities when it comes to beam-sabers...He's surgical as hell (ask Amuro)...I can't remember how many beams SAZABI has, but I remember in CCA Char was toying with Amuro at points with just his saber-play...Nearing his demise in CCA I remember some awesome beam-sword moments from him...I could see Char with just 3 sabers effectively countering...Not to say Athrun is trash with a saber, but he doesn't tend to use sabers a whole lot...Using 8 of them could be overwhelming and unecessary spam vs. Char, who I don't believe is stupid enuff to die by not noticing 8-SABERS coming at him...His NT-flash would alert him of an action that hasty I'm sure...

Originally Posted by SNT1

off-topic:

is it just me, or the link to Page 2 of discussion throws me back on Page 1, not to mention the incredibly long loading times?

The forum has been having problems today...everybody's having similiar problems with the posting errors...

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=29715

[SNT1]

I'm sure acceleration says alot on how maneuverable the MS is.

(For example, a car on a road course would need alot of acceleration to power out of those tight slow turns)

I still haven't got a clear answer on how Sazabi can defend itself off when they clash their beam sabers. (they clash sabers, Athrun can: Use the other beam saber, or kick Sazabi in the shin... and it can happen pretty fast in SEED mode.

YOu can say, "Char has funnels", well at this point it should be gone already, because Athrun, as seen on GSD 50, can dodge bits/funnels/dragoons easily, without SEED mode. Athrun having the best SEED mode in all of Gundam, he could up his performance up to par with Char' funnels.


So I am reading what everyone is saying, Char can completely evade all of Athrun's attacks... But what can Char do offensively? (Gawd defending an underdog is hard... )

SEED athrun will most likely shoot them funnels down (Athrun is a very good pilot, better than Kira IMO at their peak performances), leaving the rest to melee. What does Sazabi actually have that can deflect 8 possible blades plus beam rifles coming at it?

NOTE: I just read that I-J is one fat mofo, weighing 79 tons compared to Sazabi's 71. No one should bring this up as an advantage, or else we will all be indirectly implying that Wing Zero and Double X, weighing ~10 TIMES LIGHER, would run around UC and CE mecha and completely obliterate them by just using pure speed.... which aint true

[Shinji103]

Acceleration is a bad way to judge maneuverability. Seeing as how maneuverability is talking about how fast an MS turns and dodges, whether the MS is moving or standing still.

Char wouldn't get into a straight head-on beam saber fight with the I-J specifically because of all the I-J's beam sabers. Because Char is smart. He would launch funnels to attack from multiple directions while using his beam shotrifle, and coming in for a beam saber slash every now and then, but he wouldn't stay in saber range for long because of the I-J's numerous beam sabers. In other words, the best defense against the I-J's beam sabers is to stay out of their range, which the Sazabi is more than capable of.

Except DRAGOONs aren't as advanced as funnels, which are more precisely controlled through brainwaves. Making them more maneuverable and more accurate than DRAGOONs. So yes, the Sazabi has funnels. With which Char would kick Athrun's @$$, along with all the othe rweaponry the Sazabi has.

Let's see, for offense, he has 6 funnels, a beam spray cannon/mega cannon, a beam shotrifle, two beam sabers, and a beam tomahawke. That's plenty. You don't need 7590178047084576926092785068 weapons to fight a battle.

And yet, he can only hold out against DRAGOONs, and funnels are much smaller, harder to hit, more accurate, and faster, not to mention better-controlled. And the Psychoframe in the Sazabi will make it even harder for Athrun to do anythign against the Sazabi. And as said, staying out of range othe I-J's sabers would be common sense.

[SNT1]

As I said, Athrun's Seed mode is not to be underestimated, and it will only cancel out Chars supposedly better funnels. In GSD we only saw Athrun's seed mode in probably less than 1 minute total. Granted Shinn was a pushover Athrun's attacks were still very precise while fighting a fast Gundam

Also, on GSD50 Athrun was more worried about the Genesis firing at Orb than actually Taking down Legend (this is like Kira+Archangel 34 all over again >.>).

Not to say Athrun is trash with a saber, but he doesn't tend to use sabers a whole lot...Using 8 of them could be overwhelming and unecessary spam vs. Char, who I don't believe is stupid enuff to die by not noticing 8-SABERS coming at him...His NT-flash would alert him of an action that hasty I'm sure...

Shinn is a pushover, so using all 8 wont be necessary.

Yes, Char will see the 8 sabers and go WTF. So I guess the scenario is that once the funnels are down, Char will be on the defensive then?

[tetsuo69]

i think asuran could win this battle against char as seen in Gundam X Garrod was able to shoot down that artificial newtype funnels, yes its not the same as a newtype born with NT abilities but from what i saw in ZZ if i'm not wrong the girl who pilot the Quebely was a artificial newtype and from the looks of it she was no less from a real Newtype in ZZ, the REy not controlling Dragoons "crap "dont really matter as legend Dragoon's werent moving slower than UC funnels atleast from the animation point of view and asuran should be able to do better than garrod at dodgin Funnels as ep 50 of GSD shows asuran dodgin with out having a hard time


asuran 50%
Char 50%

in the end either one can win in my opinion

[strike66]

^u cant say that he didnt have a hard time being shown only TWO FUCKIN SCENES of him dodging funnels. Take GS for example. Kira dodged rau's funnel attacks countless times but did that mean he didnt have a hard time? no, he got hit ALOT of times even though he dodged many times as well. And also, since char's funnels are mind controlled, they would last alot longer than any dragoons. You'd think that a constant all direction attack would make athrun moving his gundam more tired or chars mind more tired (Not to mention he could control his suit perfectly AT THE SAME TIME)? Sooner or later, athrun's bound to get owned by the funnels because there is no way in hell that he could constantly be aware of all the funnels AND worry about sazabi itself. Hes only human and all humans make mistakes, not to mention his reflexes would be at its limit within 1 minute or so of constant dodging. The moment he aims for the funnels, char would read that with his newtype abilities and move it away and move another funnel behind him. BAM GG IJ. Athrun will have no time to attack, the moment he thinks about attacking, he'll be thrown onto the defensive once again. If he ignores this and continues to attack... well... the rest is up to you decide. Judging from these ignorant seed fanboys, however, i dont expect a rational answer.

[tetsuo69]

ok correct me if i'm wrong in ep 50 of GS kira dodged countless of times Rau even while he was in the meteor unit wich was a disadvantage on kira not saying the meteor unit was slow but it was sure huge enough for kira to have a hard time dodgin the attacks. if you watch clearly after flay die freedom no longer mount with meteor unit the battle started to shift on a even level even thought providence still has the advantage as it can shoot 40 something beams at once yet freedom end up shooting down almost every Dragoon . meteor unit's arent meant for opponents like shinn/rey/Rau"dragoons" or any good Ace pilot out there, we can see kira learn his lesson in GSD ep 49 as he and asuran leave the meteor units behind. plus we are speaking of Asuran first time fighting a mobile suit with Dragoon/Funnels he did pretty good for his first try. and also a Asuran who should be stronger than the kira from Gundam Seed not "Destiny" who end up winning against a MS with Dragoons/funnels on his first try "thought it wasnt an easy win" but its still a win wich is what counts

another good example should be kira he was able to dodged legend's attacks why asuran shouldnt be able? who was able to defeat some1 as strong as shinn with out having a hard time, and should be as strong as kira.

this is just dumb cause all we can do is give our opinions on who would win, nothing more lol

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by SNT1

Yes, Char will see the 8 sabers and go WTF. So I guess the scenario is that once the funnels are down, Char will be on the defensive then?

Char will be on the defensive for as long as the scenerio plays out...He'll dodge and zag around until he sees an opening for attack...In these type of MS battles an inch can determine the winner...This means a missed slash or two by Athrun can easily give Char an opening that turns the tables (Now Athrun is on the defensive)...The question is does Char understand the weakness of the suit he's facing while in-battle...He has proven he can...

Before that last funnel explodes Char will probably already have reacted to the next step of the fight...He does tend to understand the "next step" when he engages...I mean his NT-abilities ain't hurtin' him in this exchange...

Originally Posted by Shinji-kun

Char wouldn't get into a straight head-on beam saber fight with the I-J specifically because of all the I-J's beam sabers. Because Char is smart. He would launch funnels to attack from multiple directions while using his beam shotrifle, and coming in for a beam saber slash every now and then, but he wouldn't stay in saber range for long because of the I-J's numerous beam sabers. In other words, the best defense against the I-J's beam sabers is to stay out of their range, which the Sazabi is more than capable of.

And it's that easy to be honest...

I mean (SNT1 and others) don't sleep on the fact that Char is a master of examination and in-battle deduction...His skills from MSG are laid in stone...He always observes the schematical data of the Mobile Suit he faces...In a sortie situation Char has been known to lag back and observe multiple factors that not only encompass the MS make-up but the contingencies for a battle-scenerio and tactical assault against it...Against Amuro he basically gave him the pscyo-frame technology with the full-knowledge of how to engange it (Amuro simply prevailed because he is just that great)...

(Athrun vs. Amuro is another debate though...One for later...)

[Syn13]

I think it could go either way...from what I've noticed
Speed/Manuverability:
I would think the I-Justice would be way faster than Sazabi but take away it's Jetpack extension and it'll move slower than the Sazabi.
Power:
Equal? I'm guessing that I-Justice has some sort of VSRB since the beam rifle takes power from the MS + it's beam shield right?
Range:
Long - Sazabi's funnels vs I-Justice's cannons on it's back
Mid - Sazabi's Chest cannon + beam rifle vs I-Justice's beam boomerangs + beam rifle.
short - This is mainly where the I-Justice is suppose to excel in.
Seed vs Newtype:
More like saying Psychics vs Mathematicians...

Character: I still think Char wins because he seems more calm durring battles...then again that doesn't really make a difference lol~

[SNT1]

Char will be on the defensive for as long as the scenerio plays out...He'll dodge and zag around until he sees an opening for attack...In these type of MS battles an inch can determine the winner...This means a missed slash or two by Athrun can easily give Char an opening that turns the tables (Now Athrun is on the defensive)...The question is does Char understand the weakness of the suit he's facing while in-battle...He has proven he can...

IF the funnels are down, then its saber-dancing time. There is a lack of evidence on whos better at melee, Char or Athrun IMO

He always observes the schematical data of the Mobile Suit he faces...In a sortie situation Char has been known to lag back and observe multiple factors that not only encompass the MS make-up but the contingencies for a battle-scenerio and tactical assault against it.

If Char was put in CE, he might not have to observe/analyze anything because the opponents are too predictable... Could Athrun analyze MSes if he was put in UC? We dont know, since he didnt have to analyze Shinn... He may or may not, most people will lean on 'might not', but no one really knows (until GS3 maybe)

Sooner or later, athrun's bound to get owned by the funnels because there is no way in hell that he could constantly be aware of all the funnels AND worry about sazabi itself. Hes only human and all humans make mistakes, not to mention his reflexes would be at its limit within 1 minute or so of constant dodging.

coughCoordinatorcough

you think as if Athrun was *ordinary*

Judging from these ignorant seed fanboys, however, i dont expect a rational answer.

im more of a UC guy actually... but I defend Athrun since A. I wanna find out if CE characters are up to par with their UC counterparts by these arguments, B. Athrun is the best CE Pilot IMO poor judgemnt skills aside, and C. I wanna see UC fanatics like yourself say something about SEED fanboys and demigods and lacus dust and crap... I guess I succeeded with point C

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by SNT1

IF the funnels are down, then its saber-dancing time. There is a lack of evidence on whos better at melee, Char or Athrun IMO

Which the Sazabi has plenty od dodging ability to evade, while staying out of range and fighting Athrun with his missiles, beam spray cannon, and beam shotrifle. And CCA is plenty of evidence for how good Char is at melee, while we haven't seen Athrun use as much melee.

Originally Posted by SNT1

If Char was put in CE, he might not have to observe/analyze anything because the opponents are too predictable... Could Athrun analyze MSes if he was put in UC? We dont know, since he didnt have to analyze Shinn... He may or may not, most people will lean on 'might not', but no one really knows (until GS3 maybe)

I'd have to say that Athrun wouldn't be able to analyze opponents in UC, because he's never had to in CE, since, as you said, opponents are too predictable in CE.

Originally Posted by SNT1

coughCoordinatorcough

you think as if Athrun was *ordinary*

Newtypes own Coordinators 24/7. Cooindators only have better physical attributes (stamina, reaction speed, etc) than normal humans. Amuro, Char, and other Newtypes are far from normal humans, and they have psychic abilities to boot.

Originally Posted by SNT1

im more of a UC guy actually... but I defend Athrun since A. I wanna find out if CE characters are up to par with their UC counterparts by these arguments, B. Athrun is the best CE Pilot IMO poor judgemnt skills aside, and C. I wanna see UC fanatics like yourself say something about SEED fanboys and demigods and lacus dust and crap... I guess I succeeded with point C

You indeed succeeded with point C.

[srb]

First of all, comparing the funnels on the Sazabi to the DRAGOONs used on Legend is not really a smart thing, since the ones on the Sazabi are many, many times smaller and have shown far better maneuverability - probably because of the fact that they are mind controlled, not controlled by a computer.

Secondly, when talking of the beam sabers you must also consider that Sazabi's beam saber is longer than the ones IJ has, with the exception of the one mounted on the shield - however, that one is unwieldy and sacrifices defense for offense.

Thirdly, Char is a Newtype. The chest cannon on the Sazabi is an incredible advantage since Char has a much higher chance of knowing exactly when to use it when IJ is closing in when compared to a non-NT pilot.

Fourthly, the Sazabi has a Psycoframe. This allows Char to essentially move the suit and its parts with his mind - an incredible advantage when it comes to evading, and especially when it comes to the close-combat which IJ supposedly has an advantage in due to the larger number of melee weapons. The strikes from the Sazabi will be better timed and better aimed, and the blocks will be as well.

The Sazabi is better in all aspects except funnel armament when compared to the Nu Gundam. With Char in the seat, Athrun in the IJ certainly cannot win.

[SNT1]

First of all, comparing the funnels on the Sazabi to the DRAGOONs used on Legend is not really a smart thing, since the ones on the Sazabi are many, many times smaller and have shown far better maneuverability - probably because of the fact that they are mind controlled, not controlled by a computer.

Non Seed Athrun -> Dodges Dragoons
Seed Athrun -> can dodge funnels?

(No one has proof that Athrun can clearly destroy funnels, but then again there is no proof that Athrun can't. His SEED mode like I said is possibly better than Kira/Shinn's... so thats my only explanation)

Secondly, when talking of the beam sabers you must also consider that Sazabi's beam saber is longer than the one IJ has, with the exception of the one mounted on the shield - however, that one is unwieldy and sacrifices defense for offense.

I think Epyon had a much bigger beam saber, and had a direct cable to its reactor, and it was good at grunt-pwning but it never was a factor in the final fight against Wing Zero.. SO Sazabi's slightly longer weapon will be a no factor

Thirdly, Char is a Newtype. The chest cannon on the Sazabi is an incredible advantage since Char has a much higher chance of knowing exactly when to use it when IJ is closing in when compared to a non-NT pilot.

again I say, I dont remember the chest cannon having a near instant firing time. If anything, Athrun, even when not a Newtype will be watching it when it comes to rough meleeing, and I dont think he is dumb enough to die from a long range weapon in melee

Fourthly, the Sazabi has a Psycoframe. This allows Char to essentially move the suit and its parts with his mind - an incredible advantage when it comes to evading, and especially when it comes to the close-combat which IJ supposedly has an advantage in due to the larger number of melee weapons. The strikes from the Sazabi will be better timed and better aimed, and the blocks will be as well

when it comes down to meleeing, IJ still has many blades and guns to play with at melee range, and Sazabi has, as you said, more precise attacks.

Now its all a matter of execution... IJ's full potential was never realized in the anime, beacuse most of the time Athrun spent his time talking... and playing with Shinn...

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by SNT1

Non Seed Athrun -> Dodges Dragoons
Seed Athrun -> can dodge funnels?

(No one has proof that Athrun can clearly destroy funnels, but then again there is no proof that Athrun can't. His SEED mode like I said is possibly better than Kira/Shinn's... so thats my only explanation)

Don't go betting your life on that. You'll probably wake up with an angel halo hovering over your head... lol

Seeing as how Athrun can only dodge DRAGOONs and not destroy them, it's hard to see him destroying funnels in SEED mode. SEED mode may make him faste, but so are funnels. And the legend didn't have anywhere near as much extra firepower past its DRAGOONs as the Sazabi does.

Originally Posted by SNT1

I think Epyon had a much bigger beam saber, and had a direct cable to its reactor, and it was good at grunt-pwning but it never was a factor in the final fight against Wing Zero.. SO Sazabi's slightly longer weapon will be a no factor

Actually the size of a beam saber should indeed matter, as it did in 0083 in GP01 vs GP02. Beam sabers may be energy, but the beam still has some mass, which is why the beams on beam sabers don't just float right through each other. Thus explaining why GP02's saber sliced through GP01's, because it's like a thicker, stronger sword clashign with a thinner, more frail sword. If one's going to break, it'll be the thinner, more frail one.

Originally Posted by SNT1

again I say, I dont remember the chest cannon having a near instant firing time. If anything, Athrun, even when not a Newtype will be watching it when it comes to rough meleeing, and I dont think he is dumb enough to die from a long range weapon in melee

That's why it isn't a single-line firing weapon. It spams an area with beam shots, thus making it harder to dodge.

Originally Posted by SNT1

when it comes down to meleeing, IJ still has many blades and guns to play with at melee range, and Sazabi has, as you said, more precise attacks.

I-J only has three guns in comparison to Sazabi's 8 (funnels included) and three missiles. And I-J can't go swinging all his blades at once, unlike how the Sazabi could use all of its ranged weapons imultaneously if it wante dto. And again, all Sazabi does is have to stay out of range. Char would only have to watch in one direction to see any incoming ranged fire, while Char can attack form 7 different directions simultaneously. (the Sazabi itself and 6 funnels) And these funnels are much faster, more accurate, and harder to hit due to smaller size and more maneuverability in comparison to DRAGOONs.

I-J and Athrun would be toast.