2020-11-20, 13:05 | Link #262 |
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Funny thing, I'm not entirely sure they have the identities right as far as which was Mion and which was Shion. The two have swapped places many times and in stories where they're at the center we seem to often have them deliberately pretend to be one another. Anyway, if Mion did go L5 or even L4, it was remarkably controlled or only really came out at the end. We've seen plenty of people succumb to the syndrome, and even at level 3 it's quite clear that they're losing it. In particular, there's a very significant indication of unjustified levels of fear, anger and increased stress. We've only seen that at one point with Mion here, at the ladder, and again it's hard to say if that was really her. The rest of the time she's been very cool and collected, with really no indication of any kind of stress or adrenaline. That's very far from Hinamizawa Syndrome. Additionally, it seems much more in line with Shion's personality to harbor the sort of delusions shown at the ladder and the general enmity suggested. She always either hates Satoko or loves her and wants to protect her. If anyone would go to Satoko, it'd be Shion.
Of course, if the cops know about the tattoo and used that to confirm their identities that's another matter. Another thing though is Satoko's reaction this time. She didn't really seem to have significant reason to suspect K1 of anything, but it was clear she did. Maybe she was starting to relapse due to going off the meds? Really I expect we'll see her die and/or break down in every arc where Takano and the clinic are removed. |
2020-11-20, 13:22 | Link #263 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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Isn't there an organization that Takano answers to in the original series? Admittedly it's been a super long time and the details are fuzzy for me, perhaps they're just moving on their own and Takano is getting the script stolen from her rather than some mysterious 3rd party that we never saw before.
The writers seem to like following the Knox Decalouge and I propose some mysterious 3rd party organization would be in violation of the 1st. Knox's 1st It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story. (This is the Umineko version rather than the original) I don't think they would suddenly introduce a completely new faction in a story that's had countless iterations where they never existed or meddled before.
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Last edited by The Green One; 2020-11-20 at 14:15. |
2020-11-20, 13:47 | Link #264 | |
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2020-11-20, 14:58 | Link #265 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
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A completely different organization is therefore still in the realm of possibilities as long as the mastermind is someone that we know already. And then since this is a sequel, the mastermind could be someone that we have seen in original chapters even if they didn't appear yet in the current anime. For instance it could be Okonogi (not that I consider that likely). Regarding Mion, there's more than enough evidence that those that have reached L4 can restrain themselves and appear totally normal. You just need to remember Rena in the recent Onidamashi when K1 welcomed her inside the night of the incident. She didn't give the least sign of being affected by the Hinamizawa syndrome until the moment K1 entered in the kitchen. And considering what she had brought there she had to have been at least on L4, besides it's not like you can jump to L5 from L2 in a few seconds, and in her last moments she was definitely L5, unless it was all K1's delusion.
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2020-11-20, 17:51 | Link #266 |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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Considering how this builds from the original, using Tokyo as culprits is fair Game.
Also if mion builds the hinamisawa síndrome like Takano did, i can find that aceptable. Thought i AM guessing on this arc Rika did tell the truth to mion and thats how she died... It looks like the new rule y is Rika telling the truth to Takano too, which is a big también But works great to redem her character, and explains the running with tomitake. |
2020-11-20, 20:19 | Link #267 | |
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2020-11-20, 21:39 | Link #269 | |
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2020-11-20, 23:57 | Link #270 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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BTW I'm confident that Ooishi can't possibly have mistaken Shion's body for Mion's body, considering he knows who is the heir of the Sonozaki Family, and the Yakuza's custom of tattooing their bodies is common knowledge.
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2020-11-21, 04:30 | Link #272 | |
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The two arcs so far suggest this to me: The remedies for individual tragedies that led to the good ending originally aren't working anymore. Keiichi can trust Rena, but she succumbs to Hinamizawa Syndrome anyway. He can give the doll to whoever, it doesn't make a difference.
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In Watanagashi and Meakashi we didn't have this problem, because Shion was still alive when Mion's body was found. So the police didn't initially doubt their identities after discovering the bodies. If both twins are found dead, and the police did a dental examination, they would identify the bodies by their assigned names, and we would be misled. I guess that would also happen if they went by tattoos, since the twins switched identities after they had already received their tattoos. So that would suggest that this arc is a story of Shion returning to town in her quest to take back control, and expose an imagined criminal conspiracy, just like Watanagashi-hen.
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Last edited by Jaden; 2020-11-21 at 06:46. |
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2020-11-21, 07:36 | Link #273 | |
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As for dental records assuming they were used to begin with, you'd need to imagine that coincidentally they only have dental records prior to the switch and none after that, because it's the most recent dental records that is usually used to identify corpses. But let's even say they went as far as to check mental records and that only those prior to the switch exist, then they would simply understand that the switch happened, because obviously it doesn't make sense for "Shion" to have a tattoo while "Mion" doesn't. So you'd also need to think that Ooishi told K1 that it was "Shion" in the well while fully knowing that K1 knows her as "Mion".
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2020-11-21 at 07:51. |
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2020-11-21, 08:50 | Link #274 |
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Alright, let me try to sort things out...
Nevermind the dental records, Mion would be identified by the demon tattoo, and we wouldn't expect anyone to discover that she was actually born as "Shion", and it doesn't really matter, since that switch happened a long time ago. Therefore in the latest episode, there's no mistake that it's Shion's body in the well, therefore it was actually Mion that sealed Keiichi in the prison, and who was the apparent culprit this time? That's a bit difficult to swallow, since we know from previous arcs that it's Shion with the motive.
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2020-11-21, 14:25 | Link #276 |
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I think the one who locked Keiichi up was still Mion, at least going by the eyelash theory. That being said, that happened in Keiichi's mind and is thus not trustable.
Still, unless Shion somehow managed to fall in love with Keiichi without snapping early on, it was definitely Mion who locked him up. Keiichi being Mion's trigger sounds about right too, and what she did towards the end was basically the early stage of Mion going Stage 3-4 yandere on him. Moreover, being jealous is a clear motive for Mion to kill Shion too, especially in the light that it was Shion who got him into trouble. "Want to visit my home? *Cat smile* "Trust me, just let me get into my torture clothes first." "Oh btw this is my very own torture room!" "let me lock you up in a place only I have access too." Basically the really light version of what Yuno did early on. We also definitely know that the twin who called Keiichi in ep 7 has to be Mion, as her line of questioning wouldn't make sense for Shion at all.. There is no reason for her to confirm that they went into the storehouse together, as if she had already forgotten about it. Another thing pointing towards Mion being the one in the torture basement is her claim that none of these devices have been used before, while we know that Mion forced Shion to remove her finger nails in that room, and has also removed some of her own so their mother could visit Shion. So if there was a body swap at some point it had to have happened after Mion locked Keiichi away. Something else I've been thinking about btw.: Since Hanyu isn't with Rikka right now... Could she be with Mion instead? I mean, we haven't seen stage 5 Mion before, so the way she acted would appear strange to us either way, but this shard specifically had some really strange Mion actions that could be explained easily if she was in a loop too. That or it was indeed Shion who received the doll and later actually gave it to Mion.
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2020-11-21, 15:24 | Link #277 |
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I'd say we can trust Keiichi's perception here actually. Just like how there are indications when someone's having an HS break, there are signs when the story's presenting things from the perspective of someone during a breakdown. Things tend to get warped, with strange eyes and extreme threats. There's clear evidence of a cause for extreme fear or anger. Once again, the interaction was just far too calm and collected for me to buy that either of them were in the midst of a break. Not to mention that Keiichi's not shown any signs of having succumbed at the end, even though it's pretty certain that someone who's made it to the point of hallucinations will show some signs of paranoia and psychological disturbance.
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2020-11-21, 16:46 | Link #278 | |
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Keiichi hasn't witnessed the bodies himself, the images were only in his mind, so Shion being placed in the well isn't exactly a reliable PoV. The same goes for us seeing Shion on the other side of the phone an episode earlier. Aside from her face not being shown too. If the past episodes have shown us anything than it is that Keiichi has no reliable way of keeping Shion and Mion apart, even when they see each other face-to-face, yet alone if either of the twins calls him pretending to be the other, or at least decides not to clear up his misconception for her own benefit. Either twins ability to fill in for the other without people realizing also suggest that they have a similar voice. The eyelash thing is a nice gimmick, if it is anything at all, is intended for us to keep them apart better, not for the characters. You should also not trust their eyes too much. For one, Mion has already shown us crazy eyes this episode, and even her behavior before that had a certain vibe of danger to it, when Keiichi asked the wrong questions. Even stage 5 Rena had her seemingly sane moments where she looked calm and collected. Mion probably saw Rika going Bernkastel on Keiichi and thought she was threatening him, prompting her to kill Rikka. Her motive for killing her grandmother is that she is the only one who could overwrite her own command, causing someone she admitted loving harm. Shion on the other hand is the one responsible for getting him into trouble in the first place. That being said, we could also still deal with Shion who fell in love with Keiichi and didn't snap. - She did make a remark like that when she got a doll of her own from him. When it comes to the twins, literally no one's perception is trustable unless the tatoo comes into play.
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2020-11-21, 19:22 | Link #279 | |
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On a different note, I actually sort of suspected that the Mion we saw at the school might have been Shion, specifically because the incident was so close, practically identical to the incident in the original series, right down to her eventually just repeating "chigainai chigainai chigainai". |
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2020-11-21, 19:40 | Link #280 |
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I don't think the twins are that interchangeable. My impression of Mion was that she's the one main character who never flies off the handle, even in an extreme situation. It's only after confinement and torture that she started showing some HS symptoms, though even then not near L5.
Looking back at the behavior of Mion in this episode, I can still see it as barely within character, and even how she talks about taking responsibility sounds like Mion. From Shion, I'd expect to hear things like justice or revenge, not so much responsibility. I still can't see Mion tossing her grandma and her sister down the well, though - has to be something else going on there.
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