AnimeSuki Forums

MeoTwister5 · 2009-08-02, 02:47

You'd be surprised how many people are actually Anti-Mystery.

Me? I'm pretty much Stupid Neutral on the fence. I'll make my decision based on Ep5.

Mikachiru · 2009-08-02, 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Me? I'm pretty much Stupid Neutral on the fence. I'll make my decision based on Ep5.

That makes two of us. Thank god I'm not the only one half-baked.

gtr06 · 2009-08-02, 03:04

maybe Battler and Asumu was suppose to be at the family gathering 6 years ago, but because they missed it something tragic happened or didn't happen? And so the event occurs in 1986. 6 years ago hmm, maybe Kinzo was dead since then? Killed by.... Battler?!

Tyabann · 2009-08-02, 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

You'd be surprised how many people are actually Anti-Mystery.

You wouldn't think that looking at this subforum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtr06

maybe Battler and Asumu was suppose to be at the family gathering 6 years ago, but because they missed it something tragic happened or didn't happen? And so the event occurs in 1986. 6 years ago hmm, maybe Kinzo was dead since then? Killed by.... Battler?!

Interesting theory, but I think that it's just that Nanjo's original diagnosis was, in fact, correct: Kinzo died 9 months before the story begins.

gtr06 · 2009-08-02, 03:07

Also doesn't Maria's dream basically just reveal where she got her "Kikikikikiki" personality?

Marion · 2009-08-02, 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtr06

maybe Battler and Asumu was suppose to be at the family gathering 6 years ago, but because they missed it something tragic happened or didn't happen? And so the event occurs in 1986. 6 years ago hmm, maybe Kinzo was dead since then? Killed by.... Battler?!

Impossible. Kinzo hasn't been out of his study since the Beatrice portrait and epitaph were put up in 1984 - the last time he was seen at a family conference. Battler was gone in 1980.

ghost_zero5 · 2009-08-02, 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

More than "following the epitaph" I think it is more like the culprit's only concern is trying to make things appear that way. As long as people believe the epitaph is being followed it is fine, but there are enough hints to make clear that it isn't done properly.

Well: Actually that was how I meant it (except if we would consider a mystical theory which was why I also mentioned that she can't act outside the island as long as Battler denies her which would explain it mystical but that sentence was more just a gimmick as I don't really believe that the answer will be a mystical one).
That was also the reason why I mentioned the part with Eva finishing the riddle but the "interest" still wasn't returned.

Btw. regarding the 1998 interpretation: IIRC didn't they also mention that NO bodies were ever found? If that is the case: How would they decide that it was an accident? Was it an earthquake or something like this or does the island have a hidden vulcano or something like this? I mean: Even if they bodies were found, the question is still what kind of accident and what happened to Battler to somehow end up in the Meta-World (which brings back my question: What actually is the Meta-World, somehow I doubt that it is only a VN gimmick but it being only a dream is just stupid; however, it being real magic would also lead to the question I will mention next)?

Regarding magic or not: Well, I think the answer to the murders will be non-magical but that doesn't mean that magic itself won't exist. Maybe Beatrice wants to reveal the truth behind it and indeed is a witch - however, that doesn't mean that she will be that kind of witch that was represented to us, she might not be cruel at all and might not be able to revive people. As for why she would do this, I have no clue but it would be a possibility.

sento · 2009-08-02, 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

My problem with trying to explain everything with human tricks is that it makes everyone on the island into a culprit to an unrealistic extent, as Battler discovers over the course of the games.

I think that what matters more is not whether Battler's eventual explanation for events is true, but whether it makes sense.

But I'm Anti-Mystery and as such disagree with 99.9% of the fandom anyway. =P

For me is exactly the other way around... as every new EP we got, I'm more sure that there is a definite culprit, Beato = "mask" to that culprit, and is using always a random plan. Hence the letters, roulette motif and Rule Z unbreakable to Bern.

And my problem with Anti-mystery is that explain it that way = "a witch did it".

Jan-Poo · 2009-08-02, 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghost_zero5

Btw. regarding the 1998 interpretation: IIRC didn't they also mention that NO bodies were ever found? If that is the case: How would they decide that it was an accident? Was it an earthquake or something like this or does the island have a hidden vulcano or something like this? I mean: Even if they bodies were found, the question is still what kind of accident and what happened to Battler to somehow end up in the Meta-World (which brings back my question: What actually is the Meta-World, somehow I doubt that it is only a VN gimmick but it being only a dream is just stupid; however, it being real magic would also lead to the question I will mention next)?

I don't think it was ever said what was the state of the bodies when they found them in that 1998 timeline. We only know that Nanjo's body was not found, but the rest is a mystery unless I'm missing something.

June 1983 · 2009-08-02, 08:44

Like I said, I'm anti-fantasy for the murders, but I think fantasy/magic exists in the Umi world, and that the conclusion will be similar to Higurashi's -- Oyashiro-sama existed, but not in the way we originally thought. Beatrice exists, but she's not who we thought she was, and witches/magic don't work the way we thought.

In any case, you can't argue that fantasy doesn't exist at all in Umineko, otherwise time wouldn't be able to be reset.

Unless it's all a psychological experience, but trying to explain that makes my brain hurt.

Jan-Poo · 2009-08-02, 08:59

Even if magic exists, I doubt Beatrice is a witch. She suffered quite a defeat from Ange when they confronted each other in the golden land. Even though Ange can accept that magic can exist for someone, she said that Beatrice is a fake witch and her magic is a sham, as opposed to her "true" magic.

ghost_zero5 · 2009-08-02, 09:44

Well actually, the time reset or actually different timelines - after all we got four different "game scenes" and also the "outer world" was influenced by that (Eva surviving or not) - is part of the multiverse/parallel universes theory. However, up to now there doesn't even exists a proof for this but also no proof against it and of course therefore there also doesn't exist a way to cross between those (yet) but that doesn't mean that it is impossible.
So you could say that a "Devil's Proof" would (still) work

Anyway I agree with June 1983:
I am pretty sure that magic itself exists in Umineko. However, I think the murders were not done by magic and if Beatrice really is a witch, is also not clear yet but witches themselves I think will exist in Umineko.

Rias · 2009-08-02, 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Even if magic exists, I doubt Beatrice is a witch. She suffered quite a defeat from Ange when they confronted each other in the golden land. Even though Ange can accept that magic can exist for someone, she said that Beatrice is a fake witch and her magic is a sham, as opposed to her "true" magic.

I was thinking along those lines, only thing that made me changed my mind is the fact that Ange died in 1998. To me, that whole reviving Sakutaro scene seemed a bit...unreal. Just when you think that she might just have became a real witch, because of the scene she had at the end with Kazumi and Eva-Beatrice, the endroll suggests the same thing that happened in the beginning: delusional Ange.

Jan-Poo · 2009-08-02, 13:41

But Beatrice couldn't say in red that Sakutaro was the only one in the world. Sure she stopped midway, but she was using the same exact words she used a little earlier in white, so it's almost certain she was going to repeat that.

My theory is that Rosa as usual after raging she felt guilty and tried to make up her mistakes by creating another Sakutaro to give as a present to Maria. However I have no clue why Ange found it at Kawabata's house.

To me the difference between Ange's magic and Beatrice's magic is that Beatrice can only create fantasies, things that only happen in your mind and not in the real world, but Ange's "true" magic is something physical. Well actually it isn't "magic" at all, and in fact Beatrice said it in red that no magic could be performed in her golden land. But Ange's magic is the "real" thing. While Beatrice couldn't revive the fantasy of Sakutaro because of maria psychological trauma, Ange brought a real sakutaro in cotton and fabric. That's Ange's "real" magic. Pretty much the same thing could be said for the "real" magic she used against Kasumi, which was most probably Amakusa sniping from afar.

ghost_zero5 · 2009-08-02, 14:54

Actually, if you want to go the way of a theory that no magic exists at all, then the whole Golden Land, Purgatory, ... scenes have to be illusions or something like this and you more or less can completely ignore them because those definitely are either MAGIC or NOT-EXISTENT.
That would also mean that you could ignore ALL RED SENTENCES as all of them were mentioned there and therefore it wouldn't have happened.

That is why I think that a theory where no magic exists in Umineko at all is kinda hard to work.
Nearly everything we know would have to be wrong then, starting with the 4 games or with a world where you can watch what happens there,...
Of course, a non-magic theory for the murders is not only possible but probably what happened BUT as said that doesn't mean that magic - however, that one would "look like" - doesn't exist in Umineko.
However, it could also be that there really doesn't exist any magic in Umineko at all but it would not only be kinda strange but would make nearly everything "senseless". After all everything (starting with the 4 "cycles") that happend would have to be a dream or something like this then - there aren't much other possibilities to what Battler is experiencing - and that would be kinda lame.

Regarding Golden Land: She actually only knows the type of magic she uses and therefore that was what she meant with magic BUT Ange's magic is way different from hers and therefore not something what Beato thinks to be magic. However, Ange's magic probably is "real" - whatever we define as real in this case - magic (in Umineko, of course).

gtr06 · 2009-08-02, 15:03

Maybe Battler is a personified form of all those who have gotten close to guessing the mysteries at Rokkenjima. And the reds are double negatives truths, which couldn't be proven with real life evidence. I mean the bottle does ask for someone to solve the mystery of Rokkenjima.

Maybe everyone is working together to pretend everyone was murdered, but instead they took all the gold and moved to some 3rd world country without having to declare any taxes thus saving them millions.

Or they just live in a "fragment" that just happens to have the miracles of "magic". Thus granting them observer status over all of Rokkenjima fragments.

Tyabann · 2009-08-02, 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by sento

For me is exactly the other way around... as every new EP we got, I'm more sure that there is a definite culprit, Beato = "mask" to that culprit, and is using always a random plan. Hence the letters, roulette motif and Rule Z unbreakable to Bern.

There would have to be at least five or six different culprits if they were human, and they'd all have to be in on it.

This is what I find unrealistic: I really don't see a motive for any human to be responsible for this, especially since most of the people that would have to be involved die at or before the end of each game.

The witch? She has a motive.

"Means, motive, and opportunity", right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghost_zero5

Actually, if you want to go the way of a theory that no magic exists at all, then the whole Golden Land, Purgatory, ... scenes have to be illusions or something like this and you more or less can completely ignore them because those definitely are either MAGIC or NOT-EXISTENT.
That would also mean that you could ignore ALL RED SENTENCES as all of them were mentioned there and therefore it wouldn't have happened.

Heck, you might as well ignore all of the 1998 events too, since their only purpose is to get Ange to come back to 1986, which should be impossible if there's no magic.

In fact, if you really want to go Anti-Fantasy, let's ignore absolutely everything not from Real-Battler's perspective.

Oh wait, that cuts down the Ep4 to... what, five minutes?

Denying magic is ignoring an increasingly important part of both the plot and character development. I can't believe any author would write pretty much an entire game that he intends to be entirely ignored.

I think the point is that there are two explanations, there are ALWAYS two explanations, and it really doesn't matter which one is real or not, since they're both perfectly valid, according to Virgilia in Ep3. Assuming she was telling the truth about the parallels between the meta-world and the real world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rias

I was thinking along those lines, only thing that made me changed my mind is the fact that Ange died in 1998. To me, that whole reviving Sakutaro scene seemed a bit...unreal. Just when you think that she might just have became a real witch, because of the scene she had at the end with Kazumi and Eva-Beatrice, the endroll suggests the same thing that happened in the beginning: delusional Ange.

I don't know, "She died in 1998" seems kind of nonspecific to me.

You could say that her body was found, dead on the island by Juuza.

Oh, and I'd just like to point out something. Battler can't use it in his argument, but...

Beatrice says that there are 17 people on the island. We've always assumed this includes Genji, Shannon, and Kanon, but...

Do they really count as 'people', assuming that they are, indeed, artificial humans?

If not, where are the other three people?

Just a thought.

Jan-Poo · 2009-08-02, 16:13

Quote:

Beatrice says that there are 17 people on the island. We've always assumed this includes Genji, Shannon, and Kanon, but...

Do they really count as 'people', assuming that they are, indeed, artificial humans?

If not, where are the other three people?

When Eva-Beatrice made the list of people that died she ended up saying:

"15 people died"

That list of course included all the servants.

If they aren't people then who are the 15 dead people that Eva Beatrice is talking about?

Marion · 2009-08-02, 16:15

Personally I think that every anti-fantasy scene has a grain or two of truth. Like in EP 3 with the duels. Okay that scene is probably fake, because of Stakes and Siestas, but I don't think Kyrie's tidbit on her miscarriage and what not was fake. It would serve no purpose if it was a lie. When the game came out we knew nothing of Asumu and the revelation that she's not Battler's mom. The Kyrie miscarriage tidbit means a lot more after we learned that, but before it was just back story and character development.

ghost_zero5 · 2009-08-02, 16:16

@Kaisos Erranon:
Actually, this was directed at Jan-Poo as he was talking about a completely not-magic theory with at least his last paragraph of his previous post.

I wanted to state how "strange" a complete non-magic theory would be.
A complete non-magic theory for the murders is not only probable but most likely the case but that doesn't mean that there won't be any kind of magic in Umineko. That was my main point.

But of course, your idea with two different explanations is good too. That case we would be back at Virgillia's explanation of schroedinger's cat in Ep3

Though Schrödinger only used that explanation only to "counter" Einstein's thesis from the EPR-Paradox. Especially, the reality part that Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen described in it or to the conclusion they came because of it.

EDIT:
Wait: Artificial beings? You sure that you don't want to use at least a bit magic? Come on that's not even possible nowadays, yet in 1986...
But one point is right: If they would really be furniture and that is not just some "strange term" used for servants, then the question would be: What is DEAD FURNITURE?

2009-08-02, 02:47	Link #2961
MeoTwister5 Komrades of Kitamura Kou Join Date: Jul 2004 Age: 39	You'd be surprised how many people are actually Anti-Mystery. Me? I'm pretty much Stupid Neutral on the fence. I'll make my decision based on Ep5. __________________ Medical Student vs. Anime Last Exile - Fam the Silver Wing -

2009-08-02, 08:59	Link #2971
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Even if magic exists, I doubt Beatrice is a witch. She suffered quite a defeat from Ange when they confronted each other in the golden land. Even though Ange can accept that magic can exist for someone, she said that Beatrice is a fake witch and her magic is a sham, as opposed to her "true" magic. __________________

2009-08-02, 13:41	Link #2974
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	But Beatrice couldn't say in red that Sakutaro was the only one in the world. Sure she stopped midway, but she was using the same exact words she used a little earlier in white, so it's almost certain she was going to repeat that. My theory is that Rosa as usual after raging she felt guilty and tried to make up her mistakes by creating another Sakutaro to give as a present to Maria. However I have no clue why Ange found it at Kawabata's house. To me the difference between Ange's magic and Beatrice's magic is that Beatrice can only create fantasies, things that only happen in your mind and not in the real world, but Ange's "true" magic is something physical. Well actually it isn't "magic" at all, and in fact Beatrice said it in red that no magic could be performed in her golden land. But Ange's magic is the "real" thing. While Beatrice couldn't revive the fantasy of Sakutaro because of maria psychological trauma, Ange brought a real sakutaro in cotton and fabric. That's Ange's "real" magic. Pretty much the same thing could be said for the "real" magic she used against Kasumi, which was most probably Amakusa sniping from afar. __________________

2009-08-02, 03:04	Link #2963
gtr06 Golden Watch Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Age: 40	maybe Battler and Asumu was suppose to be at the family gathering 6 years ago, but because they missed it something tragic happened or didn't happen? And so the event occurs in 1986. 6 years ago hmm, maybe Kinzo was dead since then? Killed by.... Battler?!

2009-08-02, 03:07	Link #2965
gtr06 Golden Watch Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Age: 40	Also doesn't Maria's dream basically just reveal where she got her "Kikikikikiki" personality?

2009-08-02, 08:44	Link #2970
June 1983 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Warwick, RI Age: 40	Like I said, I'm anti-fantasy for the murders, but I think fantasy/magic exists in the Umi world, and that the conclusion will be similar to Higurashi's -- Oyashiro-sama existed, but not in the way we originally thought. Beatrice exists, but she's not who we thought she was, and witches/magic don't work the way we thought. In any case, you can't argue that fantasy doesn't exist at all in Umineko, otherwise time wouldn't be able to be reset. Unless it's all a psychological experience, but trying to explain that makes my brain hurt.

2009-08-02, 09:44	Link #2972
ghost_zero5 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	Well actually, the time reset or actually different timelines - after all we got four different "game scenes" and also the "outer world" was influenced by that (Eva surviving or not) - is part of the multiverse/parallel universes theory. However, up to now there doesn't even exists a proof for this but also no proof against it and of course therefore there also doesn't exist a way to cross between those (yet) but that doesn't mean that it is impossible. So you could say that a "Devil's Proof" would (still) work Anyway I agree with June 1983: I am pretty sure that magic itself exists in Umineko. However, I think the murders were not done by magic and if Beatrice really is a witch, is also not clear yet but witches themselves I think will exist in Umineko.

2009-08-02, 14:54	Link #2975
ghost_zero5 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	Actually, if you want to go the way of a theory that no magic exists at all, then the whole Golden Land, Purgatory, ... scenes have to be illusions or something like this and you more or less can completely ignore them because those definitely are either MAGIC or NOT-EXISTENT. That would also mean that you could ignore ALL RED SENTENCES as all of them were mentioned there and therefore it wouldn't have happened. That is why I think that a theory where no magic exists in Umineko at all is kinda hard to work. Nearly everything we know would have to be wrong then, starting with the 4 games or with a world where you can watch what happens there,... Of course, a non-magic theory for the murders is not only possible but probably what happened BUT as said that doesn't mean that magic - however, that one would "look like" - doesn't exist in Umineko. However, it could also be that there really doesn't exist any magic in Umineko at all but it would not only be kinda strange but would make nearly everything "senseless". After all everything (starting with the 4 "cycles") that happend would have to be a dream or something like this then - there aren't much other possibilities to what Battler is experiencing - and that would be kinda lame. Regarding Golden Land: She actually only knows the type of magic she uses and therefore that was what she meant with magic BUT Ange's magic is way different from hers and therefore not something what Beato thinks to be magic. However, Ange's magic probably is "real" - whatever we define as real in this case - magic (in Umineko, of course).

2009-08-02, 15:03	Link #2976
gtr06 Golden Watch Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Canada Age: 40	Maybe Battler is a personified form of all those who have gotten close to guessing the mysteries at Rokkenjima. And the reds are double negatives truths, which couldn't be proven with real life evidence. I mean the bottle does ask for someone to solve the mystery of Rokkenjima. Maybe everyone is working together to pretend everyone was murdered, but instead they took all the gold and moved to some 3rd world country without having to declare any taxes thus saving them millions. Or they just live in a "fragment" that just happens to have the miracles of "magic". Thus granting them observer status over all of Rokkenjima fragments.

2009-08-02, 16:15	Link #2979
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	Personally I think that every anti-fantasy scene has a grain or two of truth. Like in EP 3 with the duels. Okay that scene is probably fake, because of Stakes and Siestas, but I don't think Kyrie's tidbit on her miscarriage and what not was fake. It would serve no purpose if it was a lie. When the game came out we knew nothing of Asumu and the revelation that she's not Battler's mom. The Kyrie miscarriage tidbit means a lot more after we learned that, but before it was just back story and character development.

2009-08-02, 16:16	Link #2980
ghost_zero5 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	@Kaisos Erranon: Actually, this was directed at Jan-Poo as he was talking about a completely not-magic theory with at least his last paragraph of his previous post. I wanted to state how "strange" a complete non-magic theory would be. A complete non-magic theory for the murders is not only probable but most likely the case but that doesn't mean that there won't be any kind of magic in Umineko. That was my main point. But of course, your idea with two different explanations is good too. That case we would be back at Virgillia's explanation of schroedinger's cat in Ep3 Though Schrödinger only used that explanation only to "counter" Einstein's thesis from the EPR-Paradox. Especially, the reality part that Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen described in it or to the conclusion they came because of it. EDIT: Wait: Artificial beings? You sure that you don't want to use at least a bit magic? Come on that's not even possible nowadays, yet in 1986... But one point is right: If they would really be furniture and that is not just some "strange term" used for servants, then the question would be: What is DEAD FURNITURE?