[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

I prefer number 1, you are perfectly right when you say there was absolutely no reason for Kinzo to make such a "gift" to Krauss and Natsuhi. Unless he really hated Eva and absolutely didn't want George to become the next head, but he was the very one who accepted Hideyoshi in the family so this is very unlikely.

There is also the fact that when this child died... rather... when the news of this child's death reached Kinzo, it's been a very big shock for him. So much that he became crazier than he already was and secluded himself in the study.

That child had to be someone very important to him. And the fact that it was the very same year Beatrice died is most suspicious.

I wish I knew if this happened before or after Beatrice's death, but I'm pretty positive it was after.
Maybe Rosa went on that trip with her friends to distract herself from the feeling of guilt

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Renall

2) The mysterious caller is not on the island, but something else presented in ep1-4 forecasted his existence, and he has agents on the island. The only real examples I can think of are the mysterious letters and the payouts, and maybe the bank boxes that Ange learns about in ep4.

Didn't those letters prove that someone who's not on the island is pulling something?

I'd say that's proof enough...

[Jan-Poo]

Uh what do you mean? The letters were sent on October 3 so I don't see any problem with someone from Rokkenjima having sent them.
Actually the fact that they were sent from Niijima kinda removes any suspicion from Rosa Rudolf Eva and their families. Not like I ever had any doubt that "Beatrice" lives in Rokkenjima.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Uh what do you mean? The letters were sent on October 3 so I don't see any problem with someone from Rokkenjima having sent them.
Actually the fact that they were sent from Niijima kinda removes any suspicion from Rosa Rudolf Eva and their families. Not like I ever had any doubt that "Beatrice" lives in Rokkenjima.

But didn't Virgilia say Beato already had all the gold?

She probably planned things out in advance. And stop saying there's no human Beato! Do you really want Battler to be incestuous or break up the sappy love story of George and Shannon?

[Ithekro]

Battler doesn't seem to mind.....

[momobunny]

I'm sorry if this is really off topic or if it's a stupid question, but I keep seeing fanart of Battler in a black suit or with a cape. I also read a couple of things about him having a sorcerer outfit/cape or something. Does he actually gain any new clothing in the VN or is this just something the fans made up?

[Kitsu]

No, he doesn't. In the VN he looks the same and I don't think any extra clothes were mentioned. The Fans just love to draw him like that.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

But didn't Virgilia say Beato already had all the gold?

She probably planned things out in advance. And stop saying there's no human Beato! Do you really want Battler to be incestuous or break up the sappy love story of George and Shannon?

When did I say there's no human Beatrice? And I can't care the less about George, he's probably on the level of Oosugi of Higashi no Eden.
If Beatrice is Jessica then she's not really the one in love with Battler
And there's the possibility that Kanon is Beatrice

Rather don't you think it is kinda rude to think Beatrice is 1.50m or so? Or do you claim that it is possible for a person 1.70m tall to disguise as someone 20 cm shorter?


Anyway Yes Beatrice has all the gold already, but what's your point? °°

That's probably why she had all those money to give around.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

When did I say there's no human Beatrice? And I can't care the less about George, he's probably on the level of Oosugi of Higashi no Eden.
If Beatrice is Jessica then she's not really the one in love with Battler
And there's the possibility that Kanon is Beatrice

Rather don't you think it is kinda rude to think Beatrice is 1.50m or so? Or do you claim that it is possible for a person 1.70m tall to disguise as someone 20 cm shorter?


Anyway Yes Beatrice has all the gold already, but what's your point? °°

That's probably why she had all those money to give around.

To that last point, well duh! Human!Beato gave out the money beforehand.

Second, just crouching down would do the trick. The oversized apron would hide her legs.

[Ithekro]

In that little skirt she was wearing? In the big formal dress maybe (though it has at least a partly open back), but that skirt?

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

In that little skirt she was wearing? In the big formal dress maybe (though it has at least a partly open back), but that skirt?

Huh? I meant if she wore Kumasawa's outfit. Hell, it would make sense for her to have a short skirt on, then she could go around staking people more easily.

[desirebluesky]

you mean she was crouching all the time? poor Beato

[Used Can]

When was it said Beatrice was 1.70m tall? Or were you guys talking about someone else?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And there's the possibility that Kanon is Beatrice

I like the way you think.

[Jan-Poo]

Nowhere, we only know for sure that Battler is 1.80 and he's the tallest after Gohda.

However considering the proportions shown in the anime, Beatrice doesn't look very short compared to Battler, she's taller than Shannon and Kanon and according to anime ep3 Kumasawa looks around 15 cms shorter than Kanon and only 15 cms taller than Maria. That's why I don't think it is an overestimation to say that Beatrice is around 20 cms taller than Kumasawa.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Nowhere, we only know for sure that Battler is 1.80 and he's the tallest after Gohda.

However considering the proportions shown in the anime, Beatrice doesn't look very short compared to Battler, she's taller than Shannon and Kanon and according to anime ep3 Kumasawa looks around 15 cms shorter than Kanon and only 15 cms taller than Maria. That's why I don't think it is an overestimation to say that Beatrice is around 20 cms taller than Kumasawa.

You're going by the anime? Their heights keep changing in each episode... hell, in each scene they're inconsistent and that's the case even with good episodes.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

You're going by the anime? Their heights keep changing in each episode... hell, in each scene they're inconsistent and that's the case even with good episodes.

This

Beato was shown as shorter than Kanon in one episode, and Kanon is a midget.

[desirebluesky]

but wasn't something about Beato's height said in the game? i think there was something about her being tall, in EP2 i think. can't confirm that now though, might be my delusion as well.
anyway, i always assumed she's just a little shorter than Battler, about 1.70-75. no clue where i got this idea

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Uh what do you mean? The letters were sent on October 3 so I don't see any problem with someone from Rokkenjima having sent them.

Right, sorry. Bad memory.

[Jan-Poo]

Replying from the anime thread

Originally Posted by Ssol

I don't think there will be a complete real world solution. Here's a theory that probably will be proven wrong by the next episode:

The meta world must exist in this game since it is the source of all of Umineko's absolute truths, the red text. In the meta world, it is possible to learn the absolute truth about the real world by the red text. In the real world, "absolute truth" is non-existent so red text cannot exist.

After Battler died he entered the meta world. From there, Beatrice was finally able to communicate with Battler. But before that, Lambdadelta gave Beatrice power that only affects meta world beings and in turn Beatrice was supposed to make Battler, who was being supported by Bernkastel, surrender at all costs.

There is a real Beatrice in the real world. The red text used by Virgilia must apply to that Beatrice, else it would be completely pointless for the purpose of solving the mystery of Rokkenjima.

Regardless of the metaworld Virgilia gave important hints about the reasons behind this Beatrice's actions. The metaworld must reflect this somehow I don't think they are not connected.

Is the real world Beatrice aware of Lambda's existence? I don't think so. She's probably like "that character" of Umineko.

However even "that character" had to borrow power from someone, and I mean in the real world. The question here is: is Beatrice acting alone, or is she borrowing power from an external source? If that's the case Lambda and Beatrice's relationship in the metaworld could be a metaphor of that.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There is a real Beatrice in the real world. The red text used by Virgilia must apply to that Beatrice, else it would be completely pointless for the purpose of solving the mystery of Rokkenjima.

Regardless of the metaworld Virgilia gave important hints about the reasons behind this Beatrice's actions. The metaworld must reflect this somehow I don't think they are not connected.

Is the real world Beatrice aware of Lambda's existence? I don't think so. She's probably like "that character" of Umineko.

However even "that character" had to borrow power from someone, and I mean in the real world. The question here is: is Beatrice acting alone, or is she borrowing power from an external source? If that's the case Lambda and Beatrice's relationship in the metaworld could be a metaphor of that.

The red text regarding Beatrice's motives and the murders again are:
The purpose is not to make you feel fear.
It is not to get revenge on someone either.
Beato is not committing murders for pleasure.
I think what Virgilia meant was: Why did Beatrice show the murders to Battler the way she did from the meta world?

Question: Why couldn't Beatrice summon a meta world version of Battler during episode 1 when he first started denying the witch if she has absolute control? She had to wait until he died. To me, this displays a lack of control, at least until episode 1 ends.

I agree, there must be something that represents Beatrice in the real world. However, from episode 4, it cannot be a human and it must be able to kill.

That's an interesting theory that Lambda is also represented as an external power source on the gameboard. Before trying to understand what Lambda could be or what real world relationship Lambda has to Beatrice we need to know what Beatrice is first. At least we have some clues to that.