Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[totoum]

Originally Posted by applejuice

..."MAHOU SHOUJO HUNTING"

This sounds epic,so when does shaft announce S2 (or OVA if it's short) that is an adaption of this manga?

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by totoum

This sounds epic,so when does shaft announce S2 (or OVA if it's short) that is an adaption of this manga?

That's the thing; what point is there to adapting a manga spin-off of an anime original? If this was a story they intended to make an anime out of, why not just start there in the first place?

I'm sure there is a certain logic to this; I just can't see what that logic is.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by brocko

Maybe they'll be able to find their way into the "uncut" disc releases later on =/

Homura's crushed food looks damn painful ><

The thing going through my mind when I saw the pic was "looks like a tube of squeezed out toothpaste."

[yozaku]

Originally Posted by Akashin

That's the thing; what point is there to adapting a manga spin-off of an anime original? If this was a story they intended to make an anime out of, why not just start there in the first place?

I'm sure there is a certain logic to this; I just can't see what that logic is.

i think they want to adapt this to movie. if this manga actually good and madoka bluray sells well

well first shaft original movie

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I'm sure there is a certain logic to this; I just can't see what that logic is.

My guess:
When the manga was announced before the anime started there was no way of being sure that the anime would be popular and that producers would have no problem greenlighting a second season.

So you announce a manga,since that's cheaper to make.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by yozaku

i think they want to adapt this to movie. if this manga actually good and madoka bluray sells well

well first shaft original movie

I suppose that's a possibility. Again, don't necessarily see the necessity to do so.

Originally Posted by totoum

My guess:
When the manga was announced before the anime started there was no way of being sure that the anime would be popular and that producers would have no problem greenlighting a second season.

So you announce a manga,since that's cheaper to make.

I wasn't aware the manga was announced before the anime started. If that is so, I suppose I can see your logic.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I wasn't aware the manga was announced before the anime started. If that is so, I suppose I can see your logic.

All three manga projects were started before the anime was finished. And by before the anime was finished, I mean that in some cases the script wasn't even done yet. This is why there are several large differences in the Madoka Magica manga adaptation (Sayaka killing the men on the train in the manga, but not in the anime, for example).

This could explain some of the continuity issues in Kazumi Magica (not that they aren't fixable) and why Oriko didn't have a plot announcement until after the anime finished airing. Oriko definitely seems like a continuation of sorts.

Sakura Kyouko, who spends the day for noble battle,

Pretty much in character.

Tomoe Mami who protects Mitakiharashi city with the heart of justice,

Same here.

Akemi Homura, who silently reaches Kaname Madoka bit by bit.

This makes sense if you think about the ending of the anime after the credits roll. Another interpretation could be that this is another time line that Homura traveled to, and she is still fighting to prevent Madoka from contracting.

This makes Oriko a sequel, or another story of Homura's loops. The description is really weird though. I won't pretend to extrapolate any story ideas from that.

I'm not too sure this would be adapted into a season 2 of the anime though. One of the big selling points of Madoka was that there wasn't any source material to speculate from. This had the effect of making the audience consider the elements of the anime more carefully and surprise them with the conclusion. A season 2 adapted from a manga wouldn't be unwelcome, but I think it would lose a lot of what made the first season so fun to watch. Unless you never, ever read manga.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Here come the endless spin-oofs, excused in same way as those of NGE were.

...Oriko Magica was announced even before the series airing.

Originally Posted by Solace

This makes Oriko a sequel, or another story of Homura's loops. The description is really weird though. I won't pretend to extrapolate any story ideas from that.

...... I'm not really sure, there is definitely a reason if they call 'Spin-off' instead of 'sequel'. From what I know, story Oriko Magica is created by 'Magia Quartet', which means Shaft and Urobuchi team, making this part of official storyline. This is different from Kazumi Magica, which is entirely new and NOT written by Urobuchi.

[Snork]

Ok, I edited my initial review with various extras I "borrowed" for other peoples' opinions and now here is the extended version.
http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl...069&attid=7858

A respectable opinion. Although I don't think you needed to dedicate a whole paragraph to originality issues. Anyone who has visited TVtropes just once stops believeing in originality at all. Then again, creating a fresh piece of fiction today is MOSTLY about recombining the invented elements. Well-paced or not, PMMM does it quite decently. Though I understand that this article is mostly directed at the hype out there. Madoka Magica sure looks like a genre masterpiece (before you ask, I got bored of watching Sailor Moon pretty soon, but I do acknowledge it as a cornerstone for the same genre nonetheless), it has many chances of becoming the best anime of the year (simply because most of the concurrent shows don't even seem to TRY offering something like that), and it's nothing short of being my favourite anime right now. Calling it the best anime OF ALL TIMES, however... i don't know why you even bother reacting to it. It's the same old story. Didn't we hear the same about Haruhi (which I consider rather good, but light years away from being the best ever)?
The Madokaism meme will live, though. Even after it sinks in to people's minds that Madoka did NOT become a goddess, the meme is a thing everyone will keep for the sake of pure fun.

Overall, while I respect your opinion, such reviews kinda make me smile a bit. Modern anime is bound to be built on intertext, recycling and blatant plagiarism in some cases; dedicating too much time to deconstructing it is sometimes like reviewing a car and saying "The salon is a replica of this, the trunk design is from that, the engine is a clone of this... seriously, how does it even manage to move on its own?" As I watched anime after anime, I've learnt to take things easier... But to each its own, I guess.

... this is must buy. Urobuchi trolling hasn't ended. Only problem is whether Madoka actually is alive or not...

Oh wow. Now I'm really looking forward to it. Kyouko fighting for noble reasons... either her past has changed or - more likely - the combined efforts of two idealists on the team suppressed her adopted social darwinism pretty soon (although it may have happened in TL3 already). But I can't be glad enough at the chance to see more of her. The mahou shoujo hunting promises to be Urobuchi-esque. Damn, my pile of tissues ended with episode 12, now I gotta restock.

Madoka? From what we know going by the ending, she's not only alive but presumably harder to destroy than Kyuubey. She put herself in the circumstances that give her pretty limited but significant power, including the ability to erase her own witch form, for God's sake. (of course, according to some speculations about collected despair, she may be obliged to do that repeatedly for the rest of eternity, which makes her existence as grim as the whole Urobuchi bibliography ). The line about Homura approaching her step by step, on the other hand... sounds nothing short of requiem-like. As to Sayaka... She's probably already having tea and cake with Madoka. Maybe she'll be briefly mentioned in the manga.
That said, basically you could STILL glue most of these descriptions to a PMMM prequel if you tried... but then the whole point of delaying Orico Magica until the end of the show seems unexplicable.

This could explain some of the continuity issues in Kazumi Magica (not that they aren't fixable)

The incident with an oldschool witch in chapter 3 will take a lot of fixing, if the story DOES take place in the final world. Honestly, the chances of it being a prequel or a simultaneous spin-off look bigger to me.

[yozaku]

Originally Posted by Snork

Anyone who has visited TVtropes just once stops believeing in originality at all. .

lol so true

you can look how many references this series has. you can say this series very unoriginal and you can compare this with many series

faust, lain, eva, nanoha, tutu, diebuster and many more even greek myth

[MartianMage]

but... Madoka actually became a goddess. As QB have said "Do you really want to become a god?"

I don't know about you but the fact that Madoka is able to rewrite reality shows that she's pretty much a goddess after she obliterated her witch form.

[yozaku]

she is a goddess but different if you refer it to monotheist god who is omnipotent and omnipower

a being who guide warrior( puella magi) to heaven is a goddess if you refer it to polytheist, just like freya in norse mythology

[MartianMage]

ummm.. no she isn't limited to just guiding the MGs.

If you truly understood the ending then you should have realized that the new world is a world that Madoka rewrote. She rewrote reality.

That's why there are entirely new sets of rules also during the Madoka / Sayaka scene:

Madoka: "No, I have to apologize, too. To save you I had to erase it all. And this future will disappear, too."

That's why the scene changes from an audition to an actual concert after that conversation. Because Madoka rewrote reality.

[ThereminVox]

Twitter is making noises that the first BDs are starting to ship.

[Snork]

but... Madoka actually became a goddess. As QB have said "Do you really want to become a god?"

QB may not have a better word for it. Madoka's wish really does something only a goddess would be expected to carry out; but what she becomes is hardly a goddess per se. As one blogger put it, "she's omnipresent, not omnipotent". Madoka's wish caused her to exist simultaneously in lots of different periods of time, timelines and parallel universes including those inadvertently created by Homura (and with this dimension creating thing, why isn't Homura deified yet? ), which makes her:
- able to erase witches no matter where or when, which stretches out infinitely into the future
- relatively immortal, since, to quote Kyuubey, her life doesn't have a beginning and an end anymore; locked out of timeflow, she can't even grow older
- free from witchhood, since the despair she absorbed went to the Madoka of the contracting moment, not affecting her very self in other moments of time - and no matter how powerful, it was a well-defined witch being born, and falling under the mechanism of Madoka's wish immediately (basically, she was one of the FUTURE witches Madoka wished to erase... I can't help applauding to this girl). Of course, there are grim speculations that erasing her own witch form might make Madoka shoulder this despair repeatedly, thus having to destroy her witch form repeatedly forever... :shock: so much for god-like life it would be
- unable to manifest herself physically in any world/timeline. Just because she's already present everywhere, and there can be no physical version of her living in Mitakihara in the new world, since her mind would have to be one and the same... let's not even imagine how it would work out and what problems and paradoxes (down to sheer mindscrew for Madoka's physical self) it would cause. Mind you that Jesus, on the other hand, had no problem manifestin himself as a human AND the God. Conspicuous difference, IMHO.
- apparently able to interact with souls (whose existence may be locked out of timeflow just like hers), humans whose soul is partially locked out of timeflow, too (and Homura fits this condition perfectly due to the realisation of her wish), and sometimes even reveal some faint hints of her existence to normal people... or maybe to her relatives alone? That, or Kyuubey wasn't completely right about her limitations.

So, like it was mentioned earlier, she may be something of a shinigami/valkyrie for magical girls, but she is not a goddess. Basically, she's a Puella Magi, the last one falling under the combined definition of "fighting witches and having one's soul detached from the body". A Puella Magi like no other.

That's why there are entirely new sets of rules also during the Madoka / Sayaka scene:

Madoka: "No, I have to apologize, too. To save you I had to erase it all. And this future will disappear, too."

That's why the scene changes from an audition to an actual concert after that conversation. Because Madoka rewrote reality.

Madoka truly erases this future, because this is the future of TL5 - the timeline overloaded with paradoxes due to Madoka's interference. Once Sayaka does NOT become a witch, the whole set of events after episode 8 should be subject to the immense butterfly effect, possibly causing Madoka to make a different wish - and, like the previous timelines where her death or transformation into Gretchen was overruled by Homura's actions and events in TL5, her actions throughout time and space overrule and eventually negate this timeline. Probably on a bigger scale, since erasing every witch changes the events around every magical girl who possibly died fighting those witches, not to mention the events around people killed by them. Butterfly effect already sounds like a swearing word here; thus, this timeline is BOUND to be erased. However, if bodyless souls are normally locked out of time, both Madoka and Sayaka should have no problem taking a glimpse at the possible future of this failing timeline (especially since the events concerning Kamijo and Hitomi after Sayaka's contract are not changed that drastically, her [non]-witchhood didn't [have time to] influence their lives directly - so it's easy to speculate that this future is the one likely to repeat - and Sayaka basically accepts it).

But if we dwell more on that soul communication speculah, there's some fridge horror in it, actually. Remember the conversation between Madoka, Mami and Kyouko? Unless it's all in her imagination (and I believe she had enough to think about at the moment without launching her own mind theater ), this could be seen as a symbolic reunion and a hint that since the moment of contracting Madoka is already losing her ties to the physical world.... but where's Sayaka in that scene? She doesn't appear until Madoka actually prevents her from turning into the witch she became. So, does it mean a witchified soul doesn't get free even after the witch is killed? Could it be that it's even demolished in the process of transformation? Lord, with such speculahs in mind, episode 9 redefines tragic. Including all of Kyouko's hopes.

...... I'm not really sure, there is definitely a reason if they call 'Spin-off' instead of 'sequel'.

They might have omitted "sequel" so as not to give people more wild ideas based on the cover alone. Besides, regardless of Homura's role, the central figure of PMMM is still Madoka; it only makes sense that a manga NOT featuring her as the central figure should be called a spin-off.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Snork

QB may not have a better word for it. Madoka's wish really does something only a goddess would be expected to carry out;

Now this is a common problem with people. This is what I call assuming too much or injecting assumptions to make arguments work. You're assuming that QB may have chose the wrong words when if we take his words at face value everything falls into place.

but what she becomes is hardly a goddess per se. As one blogger put it, "she's omnipresent, not omnipotent". Madoka's wish caused her to exist simultaneously in lots of different periods of time, timelines and parallel universes including those inadvertently created by Homura (and with this dimension creating thing, why isn't Homura deified yet? ), which makes her:
- able to erase witches no matter where or when, which stretches out infinitely into the future
- relatively immortal, since, to quote Kyuubey, her life doesn't have a beginning and an end anymore; locked out of timeflow, she can't even grow older
- free from witchhood, since the despair she absorbed went to the Madoka of the contracting moment, not affecting her very self in other moments of time - and no matter how powerful, it was a well-defined witch being born, and falling under the mechanism of Madoka's wish immediately (basically, she was one of the FUTURE witches Madoka wished to erase... I can't help applauding to this girl). Of course, there are grim speculations that erasing her own witch form might make Madoka shoulder this despair repeatedly, thus having to destroy her witch form repeatedly forever... :shock: so much for god-like life it would be
- unable to manifest herself physically in any world/timeline. Just because she's already present everywhere, and there can be no physical version of her living in Mitakihara in the new world, since her mind would have to be one and the same... let's not even imagine how it would work out and what problems and paradoxes (down to sheer mindscrew for Madoka's physical self) it would cause. Mind you that Jesus, on the other hand, had no problem manifestin himself as a human AND the God. Conspicuous difference, IMHO.
- apparently able to interact with souls (whose existence may be locked out of timeflow just like hers), humans whose soul is partially locked out of timeflow, too (and Homura fits this condition perfectly due to the realisation of her wish), and sometimes even reveal some faint hints of her existence to normal people... or maybe to her relatives alone? That, or Kyuubey wasn't completely right about her limitations.

So, like it was mentioned earlier, she may be something of a shinigami/valkyrie for magical girls, but she is not a goddess. Basically, she's a Puella Magi, the last one falling under the combined definition of "fighting witches and having one's soul detached from the body". A Puella Magi like no other.

Ok going with your assumption that she's not a goddess then how do you explain the change of universal laws? You can't, it's that simple. If we take QB's word that she did become a goddess then the change in universal laws could easily be explained. There's no need to add extra flavor to the narrative if the one we have works.

Madoka truly erases this future, because this is the future of TL5 - the timeline overloaded with paradoxes due to Madoka's interference. Once Sayaka does NOT become a witch, the whole set of events after episode 8 should be subject to the immense butterfly effect, possibly causing Madoka to make a different wish - and, like the previous timelines where her death or transformation into Gretchen was overruled by Homura's actions and events in TL5, her actions throughout time and space overrule and eventually negate this timeline. Probably on a bigger scale, since erasing every witch changes the events around every magical girl who possibly died fighting those witches, not to mention the events around people killed by them. Butterfly effect already sounds like a swearing word here; thus, this timeline is BOUND to be erased. However, if bodyless souls are normally locked out of time, both Madoka and Sayaka should have no problem taking a glimpse at the possible future of this failing timeline (especially since the events concerning Kamijo and Hitomi after Sayaka's contract are not changed that drastically, her [non]-witchhood didn't [have time to] influence their lives directly - so it's easy to speculate that this future is the one likely to repeat - and Sayaka basically accepts it).

If Madoka simply removed the witches out of existence then left everything to resolve itself then the future would be vastly different from the future we've witnessed. Remember, QB said that humankind and incubators share a very long history. Again if Madoka cannot rewrite reality then this is another issue that you can't explain.

But if we dwell more on that soul communication speculah, there's some fridge horror in it, actually. Remember the conversation between Madoka, Mami and Kyouko? Unless it's all in her imagination (and I believe she had enough to think about at the moment without launching her own mind theater ), this could be seen as a symbolic reunion and a hint that since the moment of contracting Madoka is already losing her ties to the physical world.... but where's Sayaka in that scene? She doesn't appear until Madoka actually prevents her from turning into the witch she became. So, does it mean a witchified soul doesn't get free even after the witch is killed? Could it be that it's even demolished in the process of transformation? Lord, with such speculahs in mind, episode 9 redefines tragic. Including all of Kyouko's hopes.

The Kyouko and Mami scene at the start of ep12 is unlike the talk she had with Sayaka. It's not a "talk before you become a witch." Notice that the sequence happened near the start of the episode. It's more like an imagination for Madoka. Like what would Mami and Kyouko think about her wish if they could talk to her about it after all only Mami and Kyouko gave her real advises on her wish and becoming an MG.

[Snork]

Ok going with your assumption that she's not a goddess then how do you explain the change of universal laws?

Well, I simply don't estimate the Puella Magi system high enough to consider it a universal law. Otherwise than changing it, the only serious impact Madoka had on the universe is creating the final timeline, but like I said earlier, that was pretty much the effect of her wish rather than free application of her powers.

If Madoka simply removed the witches out of existence then left everything to resolve itself then the future would be vastly different from the future we've witnessed. Remember, QB said that humankind and incubators share a very long history. Again if Madoka cannot rewrite reality then this is another issue that you can't explain.

Going by QB's explanations, the history might have drastically changed if Madoka erased magical girls themselves, together with the wishes they make. Which she didn't. The history-shaping wishes and their impact remained; the girls who made them were known to have died/disappeared which they actually did, only without becoming witches now. And Homura's example makes it quite clear that you don't need to be a goddess to rewrite history. A Puella Magi is enough.

The Kyouko and Mami scene at the start of ep12 is unlike the talk she had with Sayaka. It's not a "talk before you become a witch." Notice that the sequence happened near the start of the episode. It's more like an imagination for Madoka. Like what would Mami and Kyouko think about her wish if they could talk to her about it after all only Mami and Kyouko gave her real advises on her wish and becoming an MG.

Good point here. If we assume that she imagined this BEFORE contracting, on her way to Homura, it makes sense.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Snork

However, if bodyless souls are normally locked out of time, both Madoka and Sayaka should have no problem taking a glimpse at the possible future of this failing timeline

I think GG may have made a tense error there. Madoka might have meant "have" instead of "had". Madoka seems to be giving Sayaka a choice, she could have a future where she never made a contract and thus didn't become a witch but Kyosuke's hand wouldn't be healed, or she could have a future where she did contract to heal Kyosuke's hand but she'd die as all other magical girls who exhausted their magic did. After Sayaka made her choice, the new timeline was "finalized" and Homura was inserted as well. The clue is in Homura still holding Madoka's ribbons in her hands. Why would she be holding them just after a battle like that?

this could be seen as a symbolic reunion and a hint that since the moment of contracting Madoka is already losing her ties to the physical world.... but where's Sayaka in that scene?

Thematically, Sayaka's presence would be a distraction in that scene. You could say the two of them are connected to her decision to become a magical girl in a way that Sayaka isn't. Kyoko's "don't until you've found a reason to fight." line and Mami returning the sketch representing her acceptance of becoming a magical girl.

She doesn't appear until Madoka actually prevents her from turning into the witch she became. So, does it mean a witchified soul doesn't get free even after the witch is killed? Could it be that it's even demolished in the process of transformation?

That she talked to Sayaka later gives hope that that isn't the case.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

Ok going with your assumption that she's not a goddess then how do you explain the change of universal laws?

She didn't change universal laws per se. She put herself into a position to interrupt it. As an example: Imagine scientists have mathematically shown that the speed of light is not the absolute speed limit in the universe, but for some reason nothing in the unverse goes any faster naturally and any attempt to do so artifically just stops going faster at light speed. It would seem that the math is wrong, but what if that's because someone is everywhere and everywhen and simply stops anything before it goes faster than light? That's what Madoka did. It looks like a universal law because it applies everywhere at all times. That's a shortcoming of the scientific method. Because there's no way of directly accessing the lawbook of the universe, the only way to find those laws is to experiment with things under their influence. It can't tell you if someone is interfering with the law universally.
That's probably what happened to the Incubators in the new timeline. They had theorized that a shattering soul gem would release tremendous amounts of the magical energy they wanted, but the soul gem simply vanished as it broke in all their experiments thanks to the Pink Reaper they couldn't detect. Eventually, they chalk it up to a universal law they can't comprehend and look for other means to tap the energy they want.
But would the Incubators take Homura's words seriously enough to begin experiments to try and find Madoka and "deal" with her?

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

But would the Incubators take Homura's words seriously enough to begin experiments to try and find Madoka and "deal" with her?

Which brings us back to "Mahou Shoujo Hunting".

[applejuice]

Madoka's wish was NOT about becoming god. It was simply preventing mahou shoujos of past, present and future from becoming witch, by 'HERSELF'. That's why it is important. Madoka was the 'center' of the time and space due to Homura's repeated loop, thus she was able to achieve power to manipulate time, space and entire rule of Kyuube's business. She became 'EXCEPTION' of universal law, thus referred as god by Kyuube.

But that's it. Madoka became a 'RULE', 'CONCEPT'. That's why she exists in everywhere, at anytime. By becoming a rule by herself, she can prevent occurrence of witches with her own hand, thus wish is granted.