[Manga] Naruto Chapter 593 Discussion

[mystogan]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

he cant make hand seals, but as you saw in that fight he can do anything involving his mouth or summoning. his mouth techniques are basically summoning or replacements anyway. im not sure if the tattoos on his arms helped with that barrier summoning as well or if he just needed to place his blood on the ground and form a seal that way, but after watching that fight it is still clear that his arms are useless when it comes to hand seals

i thought those tattoos were because he got his part of soul sealed away by sarutobi(third), looks like it works in favor for him, come to think of it the only time we saw orochimaru completely fighting was his battle with sarutobi

i can't see any way for orochimaru to take over sasuke's body, especially when sasuke has become so powerful

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by mystogan

i thought those tattoos were because he got his part of soul sealed away by sarutobi(third), looks like it works in favor for him, come to think of it the only time we saw orochimaru completely fighting was his battle with sarutobi

i think that's mostly correct in that he put those tattoos there so that he could do summonings like how he (and kabuto's help) summoned manda to fight jiraiya. im not entirely sure about all that though. the issue of him having his techniques sealed away gets into a grey area since he still does use techniques, but is limited to certain ones it seems. ones that the parts of his soul that weren't his arms could do i guess. the soul clearly has a human form and he lost the arm parts

[Dengar]

I'm pretty sure the arm tattoos have to do with his snake summoning contract. He had them before losing his arms iirc.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

he cant make hand seals, but as you saw in that fight he can do anything involving his mouth or summoning. his mouth techniques are basically summoning or replacements anyway. im not sure if the tattoos on his arms helped with that barrier summoning as well or if he just needed to place his blood on the ground and form a seal that way, but after watching that fight it is still clear that his arms are useless when it comes to hand seals

Not that I'm arguing against this, but where was this stated (it does indeed seem to be true, I don't remember him doing any hand seals since his injury)? I don't seem to remember. If this is true, then wow, he has proven to be pretty damn resourceful. It was suggested early on that Oro knew quite alot of jutsu. I remember Sarutoi, before releasing the death god technique mentioning to Oro he was about to perform a jutsu "even you" never heard of, and even Itachi stated "all your jutsu are useless before these eyes."

I think it is a real shame we haven't really seen Oro's full potential in a serious fight, even against Sarutobi he was mostly poking fun at him, making him fight the former hokages until the end. If/when he dies in this manga I hope Kishimoto gives him an epic death such as the way Jiraiya went out. Oro is certainly not a hero, but considering how much of a great villain he is(and for how long he's been around), I think his character deserves a special exit, befitting of someone whos been so influential and iconic in the story.

[Mateus]

I thought the whole reason for Orochimaru hijacking Genyumaru was to overcome this whole "sealed" arms business, or is this another retcon/different issue altogether?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Mateus

I thought the whole reason for Orochimaru hijacking Genyumaru was to overcome this whole "sealed" arms business, or is this another retcon/different issue altogether?

i dont think so but its a little muddled. i think the reason is that he needs to switch bodies every 3 years because that's how long he can sustain a body. with genyumaru's body he got just as sick and dying after 3 years as he was right before he took his body. that's why he couldn't wait for sasuke after his VotE fight with naruto. i think he also can't switch bodies until 3 years are up per some stipulation with the technique which is why he agreed to train sasuke for 3 years instead of just taking his body over right away. i'm not certain about this stuff either, but that's how i remember it

like Artful Dodger I really want to see an all out orochimaru fight before the end of the series. jiraiya was amazing and orochimaru is pretty much said by jiraiya to be better than him. just the way he's been so awesome without his arm techniques is testament to his greatness. plus he's by far my favorite villain

[Dengar]

To be fair though, I honestly think Jiraiya is actually stronger than Orochimaru, -technically- anyways. I don't think Jiraiya could ever go all-out against Oro though.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by Dengar

To be fair though, I honestly think Jiraiya is actually stronger than Orochimaru, -technically- anyways. I don't think Jiraiya could ever go all-out against Oro though.

It was stated that Orochimaru would have been the top contender for being appointed the 4th Hokage if not for his ambition and evil. This places him above both Jiraiya and Minato, though one could argue that Minato's relative inexperience was a likely factor at that point in time.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Dengar

To be fair though, I honestly think Jiraiya is actually stronger than Orochimaru, -technically- anyways.

I used to think so as well, what with the way Orochmaru is portrayed(weak, being defeated easily), but paying attention to some of the details made me realize that its the contrary. To be fair, Kishimoto always seems to keep Oro in a weakened state.

There are actually some hints spread around the story suggesting that Oro was the stronger of the Saanins, with two that really stand out to me: when it was believed that Orochimaru was killed, Tsunade told Jiraiya, "Out of the three of us, who would have thought he would be the one to die first". Then there's most obvious "hint", Sarutobi flat out stating Oro was the most talented of the three, and he had originally chose him to succeed him as Hokage.

We've seen a more impressive fight by Jiraiya, but this is not conclusive since Kishimoto always keeps Orochimaru in a weakened state, and wasn't given the same opportunity. I still think they're relatively close though.

I don't think Jiraiya could ever go all-out against Oro though.

Both Jiraiya and Tsunade did in-fact go "all out" (as much as they could in that instance) against Orochimaru, pulling out their strongest summons, even declaring him no longer a saanin and that he would die that day.

Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya believed that friends like Oro and Sasuke cannot be changed, hence his little speech with Naruto at the hospital after he was defeated by Sasuke. Jiraiya was also defeated by Orochimaru in very similar circumstances and he basically told Naruto to forget the friendship and move on.

[itachi-san314]

^also, orochimaru faired much better against 4tail naruto than jiraiya and that was without his arm techniques and near his 3 year body rejection deadline. granted, jiraiya would have wanted to stop naruto without hurting him much, but i dont think orochimaru was exactly going for the kill either. he would have preferred to capture naruto alive i would assume for the kyuubi and experimentation

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

It was stated that Orochimaru would have been the top contender for being appointed the 4th Hokage if not for his ambition and evil..

LOL. This bold comment really tickles my funny bone. "If not for Orochimaru's monstrous and evil tendencies, he would have been a nice guy to know..."

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

I used to think so as well, what with the way Orochmaru is portrayed(weak, being defeated easily), but paying attention to some of the details made me realize that its the contrary. To be fair, Kishimoto always seems to keep Oro in a weakened state.

There are actually some hints spread around the story suggesting that Oro was the stronger of the Saanins, with two that really stand out to me: when it was believed that Orochimaru was killed, Tsunade told Jiraiya, "Out of the three of us, who would have thought he would be the one to die first". Then there's most obvious "hint", Sarutobi flat out stating Oro was the most talented of the three, and he had originally chose him to succeed him as Hokage.

We've seen a more impressive fight by Jiraiya, but this is not conclusive since Kishimoto always keeps Orochimaru in a weakened state, and wasn't given the same opportunity. I still think they're relatively close though.



Both Jiraiya and Tsunade did in-fact go "all out" (as much as they could in that instance) against Orochimaru, pulling out their strongest summons, even declaring him no longer a saanin and that he would die that day.

Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya believed that friends like Oro and Sasuke cannot be changed, hence his little speech with Naruto at the hospital after he was defeated by Sasuke. Jiraiya was also defeated by Orochimaru in very similar circumstances and he basically told Naruto to forget the friendship and move on.

Didn't orochimaru say he put his "senjutsu" chakra into the curse seal? That means in an all out fight, he should be a dragon sage right??

[mystogan]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i think that's mostly correct in that he put those tattoos there so that he could do summonings like how he (and kabuto's help) summoned manda to fight jiraiya. im not entirely sure about all that though. the issue of him having his techniques sealed away gets into a grey area since he still does use techniques, but is limited to certain ones it seems. ones that the parts of his soul that weren't his arms could do i guess. the soul clearly has a human form and he lost the arm parts

if his arms are useless like that, no wonder we never saw him in a close range combat after chunin exam arc,

i remember orochimaru's real body being a grossy huge snake, that sasuke saw when he first defeated him, now what's the thing behind that, looks like he seals his real body under every new body, and even if he is slashed in half ,snakes comes out of his body and combines again

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

Didn't orochimaru say he put his "senjutsu" chakra into the curse seal?

Yes, the cursed seals contain some of his senjutsu chakra combined with Juugo's enzyme and apparently a portion of his consciousness.

That means in an all out fight, he should be a dragon sage right??

Orochimaru couldn't fully utilize sage mode because of the limitations of his host body, which is one of the reasons for his obsession with Sasuke as a host medium.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

Orochimaru couldn't fully utilize sage mode because of the limitations of his host body,

Orochi was never a sage. Kabuto states that Orochi was searching for the place he needs to go to have sage training, but he never found it. Sure the CS is revealed to be an artificial sage mode, but it's definitely weaker than a real sage. Naruto with just about 2 weeks of sage training became able to fight against Pain. Sasuke in the valley of the end, or the sound 4, sure became stronger than in normal state, but the powerup was never that large as the real thing. Just look at Kabuto in sage mode, that's a huge powerup when you have jutsu that can make an entire cave move as if it was your summon and you can beat the ultimate defense susano with one move.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Orochi was never a sage. Kabuto states that Orochi was searching for the place he needs to go to have sage training, but he never found it. Sure the CS is revealed to be an artificial sage mode, but it's definitely weaker than a real sage. Naruto with just about 2 weeks of sage training became able to fight against Pain. Sasuke in the valley of the end, or the sound 4, sure became stronger than in normal state, but the powerup was never that large as the real thing. Just look at Kabuto in sage mode, that's a huge powerup when you have jutsu that can make an entire cave move as if it was your summon and you can beat the ultimate defense susano with one move.

while i tend to agree with this, i cant help but think he could have been reversed summoned there...

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by mystogan

if his arms are useless like that, no wonder we never saw him in a close range combat after chunin exam arc

Well he was relatively close to the 4-tailed naruto form, and even punched it, but for some reason he doesn't seem to able make use of any hand-seal techniques.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Orochi was never a sage. Kabuto states that Orochi was searching for the place he needs to go to have sage training, but he never found it.

Except in reference to the ability, Kabuto stated that Oro "finally found the source where that ability came from... Thats Ryuchidou". This quote was even stated right over the flash back panel of Orochimaru inside the Ryuchidou cave :/

The reason Kabuto gave for Oro not mastering sage mode was not that he didn't find the location of the Ryuchidou, but a lack of a capable host-body.

Sasuke in the valley of the end, or the sound 4, sure became stronger than in normal state, but the powerup was never that large as the real thing.

Considering that the CS contains only a small portion of Oro's senjutsu chakra I certainly would not expect it to be. You seem to think I am trying to place the cursed seal and sage mode on equal footing for some reason, but thats not my intention at all. I never called Orochimaru a sage, because as I already stated, he wasn't able to reach the true potential since his host's body couldn't sustain the technique's strain.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

Except in reference to the ability, Kabuto stated that Oro "finally found the source where that ability came from... Thats Ryuchidou". This quote was even stated right over the flash back panel of Orochimaru inside the Ryuchidou cave :/

The reason Kabuto gave for Oro not mastering sage mode was not that he didn't find the location of the Ryuchidou, but a lack of a capable host-body.

My bad, i overlooked that part, it just didn't make too much sense that Orochi knowing the place didn't train and become a sage. But now that i think of it finding the place doesn't mean he can become a sage, in fact Jiraiya himself failed to become a sage without having the 2 frogs on him and he trained for many years. In 579/12 Kabuto states that he was never attacked by the CS, his ability can be obtained only by "self-training at the Ryuchidou". Then Kabuto states that he surpassed Orochi, which implies that Orochi was never a sage himself. And that makes sense since we have never seen Orochi as a sage, and telling us that it's because of not finding a good body doesn't make too much sense. Neither Naruto nor Kabuto have some kind of super-bodies, for the frog-sage mode it was never stated to be a requirement to have a special body, so why would it be for the snake-sage mode? Also Orochimaru when fighting against the 3rd hokage had a body that was definitely quite good, since after that he took a huge beating from Tsunade he didn't die.

But anyway, on page 17 Kabuto clearly states that Orochi could not become a "true sage", so my interpretation is that Orochimaru experimented on artificial sage mode which resulted in the cursed seal that is based on Juugo's DNA.

Actually i like the idea of CS being a crappy version of sage mode, since it explains the powerup with absorbing nature chakra instead of having more power coming from nowhere
The only issue with the whole thing is that Kishimoto invented this sage mode powerup after Orochimaru's story ended and it just does not fit in without having some minor plot holes. Now Kishi could give the 3rd sage mode to Tsunade, she needs it against Madara, it would not make much sense that she never used it before, but with a good explanation even that could be made ( for example Tsunade's ability was somehow sealed but Dan broke the seal ). But i guess the 3rd sage mode may be reserved for Sasuke, he might need it if Naruto fully masters both sage and kyuubi mode and possibly even combines the two.

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

Considering that the CS contains only a small portion of Oro's senjutsu chakra I certainly would not expect it to be. You seem to think I am trying to place the cursed seal and sage mode on equal footing for some reason,

I answered only to the idea of Orochi being a sage, stating that it doesn't make sense if we look back at the whole story. The problem was that i remembered only the sentence on page 579/12 where Kabuto says that both he and Orochimaru dreamed of going to Ryuchidou, so i assumed that they never found the place before Orochi died. But even if Orochi found the place he was never in sage mode, thus CS is not Orochi's sage mode chakra, it's the result of Orochi's experimentation on his own body, Juugo's body and who knows what else.

[Dengar]

Kabuto DID have a super body.

And Naruto? Helloooo, he's an Uzumaki?

Anyway I think that one requirment for Senjutsu is having a ginormous chakra reserve, but that's just speculation on my part.