International Saimoe League 2012

[RegalStar]

With these contests, it's not about how important characters are in their series, it's about how popular they are. Disregarding that I think Kanade is more of a main character in AB than Yuri is, there are plenty of examples of non-main characters being more popular than main character. Haruhi being helped out in the Haruhi series may actually be a bit of a factor, because I suspect that a sizable chunk of her votes are from Yuki fans (judging by her performace in Diamond necklace match last year).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Demi.

But again, there are several other matches where split voting was noticeable. It's evident with Kuroko and Saten, Yami and Yui, as well as some others...But there are an equal number of them where I just don't see an underperformance despite the supposed split voting.

This is why I think that where Team Rocket Elite and Eater for All are seeing in-series split voting we may simply be seeing what I would call natural preferential voting.

What I mean by "natural preferential voting" is that each of us has an order in our own minds of how much we like certain characters. Whether we vote for our 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc... favorite girl will depend on if our 1st and/or 2nd favorite girl is there.

Now, it stands to reason that if Azusa is my favorite character, then I might at least like Ui, and vote for her over girls that I don't know that well. But if Azusa is in the match, I'd be voting for Azusa and Ui doesn't necessarily get my support.


After thinking more about it, I do think that in-series vote-splitting sometimes creeps up, and will largely have one impact - Negating the benefit of "name recognition" that comes with being the 3rd, 4th, etc... most popular girl of a very popular anime series. That's pretty much it, though, I think.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by RegalStar

With these contests, it's not about how important characters are in their series, it's about how popular they are. Disregarding that I think Kanade is more of a main character in AB than Yuri is, there are plenty of examples of non-main characters being more popular than main character. Haruhi being helped out in the Haruhi series may actually be a bit of a factor, because I suspect that a sizable chunk of her votes are from Yuki fans (judging by her performace in Diamond necklace match last year).

Haruhi generally loses to Yuki, but it's usually not by many votes (In 1v1, not those messed up necklace matches). Everyone and their mother knows about the Haruhi series, so their advantage comes with series recognition. Though the same can be said about most of the top 16 tbh, lol.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by RegalStar

With these contests, it's not about how important characters are in their series, it's about how popular they are.

What I meant by my comment to you about Yuri is "What made Angel Beats! and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya popular in the first place?"

One would imagine that the main character at least played a role in the show's popularity in the first place. So if Haruhi benefits from the popularity of her anime, then that's simply to be expected, imo. It would be like Goku benefiting from the popularity of DBZ, or Ash Ketchum benefiting from the popularity of Pokemon. Of course he does, and he should; he's the main character!

Disregarding that I think Kanade is more of a main character in AB than Yuri is,

Kanade's not. Yuri is every bit as much a main character in AB as Kanade is.

[ion475]

Kanade's not. Yuri is every bit as much a main character in AB as Kanade is.

[OT]Come on, we all know that Kanade is THE main heroine and Yuri is just there to block the inevitable Kanade end[/OT]

What I meant by my comment to you about Yuri is "What made Angel Beats! and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya popular in the first place?"

Haruhi is definitely character related (I mean, KyoAni =/= automatic success, just look at Nichijou...). But can't really say the same about Angel Beats when it's hyped just b/c of Jun Maeda...

As far as Kanade-Yui-Yuri...the thing is, whenever you have a clear #1 from a series, split votes usually doesn't do much. I mean, let say, you put Taiga & Minori in the same group, I seriously doubt that a split would kill Taiga, especially when it's picking 2 out of 9, not 1 out of 3...

Of course, girls like Azusa-Mio, Hitagi-Nadeko, Kobato-Niku, etc. would be hurt quite a bit just b/c of split voting. I mean, this is not AST where you have faction strategically "giving up" on one girl in those 1 out of 3 matches...On a side note, though, there's still the Kyoko win in 1st half of Seeding despite a suppose-split b/t her and Mami...

[Last Sinner]

In terms of romance, Kanade is the main one.

In terms of plot/carrying the story, Yuri is.

If you honestly think Angel Beats would have worked without Yuri, that is delusional. Angel Beats needed a more determined, strong-willed character to lead that crew and act as a polar opposite to Kanade. Which is exactly what Yuri did. Don't disregard Yuri just because she isn't that easy/quiet/kuudere type that has been the most popular archetype for the last 15 years ever since Rei Ayanami hit the screen.

[Ichuki]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is why I think that where Team Rocket Elite and Eater for All are seeing in-series split voting we may simply be seeing what I would call natural preferential voting.

What I mean by "natural preferential voting" is that each of us has an order in our own minds of how much we like certain characters. Whether we vote for our 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc... favorite girl will depend on if our 1st and/or 2nd favorite girl is there.

Now, it stands to reason that if Azusa is my favorite character, then I might at least like Ui, and vote for her over girls that I don't know that well. But if Azusa is in the match, I'd be voting for Azusa and Ui doesn't necessarily get my support.


After thinking more about it, I do think that in-series vote-splitting sometimes creeps up, and will largely have one impact - Negating the benefit of "name recognition" that comes with being the 3rd, 4th, etc... most popular girl of a very popular anime series. That's pretty much it, though, I think.

I think that's what happened in the AB split voting "Kanade is the main" because Nakamura is much of a main as well of course for the AB fan voters and there's some who actually vote Kanade because of her personality/ looks and some believes she's the actual main-main character and thinking Yuri is a support even though Yuri isn't that's the reason why I think Kanade doesn't seem to be hurt on split voting unlike Yuki and Haruhi .

[ion475]

At the end of the day, it's not about "Who's main", "Who's #2", whether "Yuri is main heroine" or not...

I mean, Kanade won against Yurippe with 6322-2323 (~73%), and against Yui-nyan, 4972-2008 (71.2%). So, basically, even if there's a split, it's more like 75-25...

Now, since everyone can pick 2, the percentage goes even further down to maybe 85-15. And this is assuming that it's a 2 out of 3 b/t Kanade, Yui, and Yurippe. With 9 other girls, votes will get diluted even further...

Hack, it's probably easier to argue a HanaKana split than a AB split against Kanade anyway...

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

In terms of romance, Kanade is the main one.

In terms of plot/carrying the story, Yuri is.

If you honestly think Angel Beats would have worked without Yuri, that is delusional. Angel Beats needed a more determined, strong-willed character to lead that crew and act as a polar opposite to Kanade. Which is exactly what Yuri did. Don't disregard Yuri just because she isn't that easy/quiet/kuudere type that has been the most popular archetype for the last 15 years ever since Rei Ayanami hit the screen.

But it's popular for a reason. It works pretty good when done right. :3

I do like Yuri better though.... cuz she's a "hater", of course.

[Demi.]

Kanade is definitely pretty, but her personality kinda lacks. What little of it she has. Kuuderes are indeed the superior archtype. :3
...I consider Kanade more of the emotionless variety.

[AbZeroNow]

Originally Posted by Ichuki

Same here and I feel like Shirakiin Ririchiyo's chances in exhibition is pretty certain though.

She does have a rather pleasing gothic look, and that lab coat I can imagine that she'd have some competition with Roromiya Karuta(typing it so the order matches yours and ISML format) for most popular InuBoku girl. Karuta has the HanaKana factor in her favor after all, and I've seen Karuta's ED compared with Renai Circulation.

Somehow AnoNatsu could field some good candidates with Ichika, Kanna, Mio, Remon and Kaori. I would not be surprised if Yamano Remon was the next breakthrough character for the JC Staff faction.

[RegalStar]

Anonatsu doesn't seem to have enough popularity, though. (Which is a shame, but oh well)

[Ahasuerus]

I didn't expect to like AnoNatsu either but am thoroughly enjoying it. The "let's shoot a film over summer break" proved to be more than a (possibly lame) gimmick, and each character is likable and cute in their own way. And especially Remon...

[Game8910]

Everyone that says Yuri isnt heroine material for AB should go read the prequel novel Track Zero, shows you how Yuri and Hinata formed their SSS.
Hinata is more of an MC and more awesome than Otonashi ever was or could hope to be.
Also you'll realize Hinata x Yui is one of the worst pairings the anime could've ever come up with if you read the novel.

[RegalStar]

I have read the novel, actually. I'm talking about the plot of the anime itself, since the focus of Otonashi had been more or less always on Kanade since the beginning.

But we're getting seriously off topic, now.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think what disappoints me the most about these results is how all the new girls aren't able to even so much as scratch the 2011 competitors. In every single arena the winner was somebody who took part in ISML 2011. And the margin of victory was substantial (if not massive) in every single case.

This wouldn't be that big of a problem if all of the 2011 competitors were in their own division, but as is...

At a personal level, there's results I really like (Haruhi winning, Yuri winning, some others) and some I wasn't fond of (the three Madoka Magica girls not doing better), but the bigger issue overall is simply the glaring inability of the new girls to even hang with the ISML 2011 girls if these results are any indication. I guess we'll see how Akemi Homura can do...


A secondary disappointment for me was the lack of older girls managing to rebound much.

So far, this is looking like ISML 2011 all over again...

This was something I was worried about and why I thought it would be better to divide Stella and Nova along past participation in the Regular season.

Participating in a Regular season can provide significant advantages, as a girl can develop a following that has voted for her repeatedly, and so are naturally willing to do so again. Of course the bottom half of the Regular season doesn't have this advantage as much, but still, it gives the top half an advantage over new girls.

If Stella was simply for girls that have participated in previous ISML Regular seasons, and Nova for girls that have never participated before, then I think that would make the nomination battles more interesting. Also the entire Nova division will be nothing but new faces, which I thought was the main point behind the divisions.

If the new shows for the year were weak, then you might see some older characters slip in a few positions, but I don't really see that as a problem. I'd rather see an older character as a new face in ISML instead of just seeing the expected faces winning with a bunch of weak girls as fodder. Indeed a bunch of new characters with a few old favorites that haven't had a chance to participate in ISML before would be a great way to attract new voters, increase ISML presence, and broaden the voter base.

My suggested division method was rejected because there were not enough characters that had previously participated to fill out the nominations for the Stella division. Maybe next year will have enough previous participants for my suggested method of dividing the classes to be reconsidered.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sackett

This was something I was worried about and why I thought it would be better to divide Stella and Nova along past participation in the Regular season.

When I wrote what you quoted there, I was thinking about your suggested Stella/Nova division and how it would have been significantly preferable to what we have now.

Participating in a Regular season can provide significant advantages, as a girl can develop a following that has voted for her repeatedly, and so are naturally willing to do so again.

Good points. Voters can get used to certain girls doing well, and eventually feel compelled to pick a favorite or two out of those top few girls, so as to feel more involved in the "top matches". Momentum really can build up here, I think.

It's going to be extremely hard, if not impossible, for the new girls of ISML 2012 to build up this sort of momentum when they have to compete with Kuroneko and the Angel Beats! girls.

If Stella was simply for girls that have participated in previous ISML Regular seasons, and Nova for girls that have never participated before, then I think that would make the nomination battles more interesting. Also the entire Nova division will be nothing but new faces, which I thought was the main point behind the divisions.

If the new shows for the year were weak, then you might see some older characters slip in a few positions, but I don't really see that as a problem. I'd rather see an older character as a new face in ISML instead of just seeing the expected faces winning with a bunch of weak girls as fodder. Indeed a bunch of new characters with a few old favorites that haven't had a chance to participate in ISML before would be a great way to attract new voters, increase ISML presence, and broaden the voter base.

I strongly agree with all of this. Excellent points.

My suggested division method was rejected because there were not enough characters that had previously participated to fill out the nominations for the Stella division. Maybe next year will have enough previous participants for my suggested method of dividing the classes to be reconsidered.

I very much would like to see your suggested method implemented in the future, yes.

[Ithekro]

But, Kanade and Kuroneko will be old enough next year (I think) to be Stella only, thus removing them from Nova form 2013 (as it will be December 2010 to November 2012 for Nova by then). Any up and comers from this year will be "on top" next year unless someone in a 2012 show can stop them.

[ion475]

It's going to be extremely hard, if not impossible, for the new girls of ISML 2012 to build up this sort of momentum when they have to compete with Kuroneko and the Angel Beats! girls.

Think of it this way, though. At least the new girl don't have to fight for a spot against the like of Shana and Taiga. The top guns will always be up there (Kanade/Kuroneko), but the sad part is, some new girls can't even stand a chance against those Tier 6/7 girls from last year...

[Demi.]

Nova division is already a weak enough division as it is. Making Nova only the new girls of each year would only amplify that. If that is ever done, then Nova should never meet up with Stella during single elimination(instead, each division should have their own individual single elimination and tiara), as they're just going to get raped by stella, anyways...And it's kind of like a free pass to single elimination for some Nova girls who didn't really deserve it, because many other Stella girls are stronger then them...yet because Stella is a much tougher division, it takes a lot more strength to make single elimination.

And I don't really agree with the notion that characters get stronger after participating in ISML for a year. Statistics show that most characters only continue to get weaker. They are generally at their strongest during their first year of participation...Barring there isn't a huge demographic shift or one of the characters has a sequel for their series.