2012-02-06, 17:53 | Link #27782 | ||||
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In the same way, is everyone going to be happier if the Truth is made public? Of course not. You can't please everyone. And, there's even the possibility that certain people will be miserable whether it is revealed or not. One person's happiness will mean another's unhappiness. That's how the world works. Who are the ones that are happy to have the Truth hidden? We don't even know that much, so we can't conclude that the ones hiding the Truth are doing it for selfish reasons. Will you be happier if you learn the Truth? Not necessarily. And knowing is a one-way street, so you might later wish you didn't learn it. Because if you hadn't learned it, you might like Umineko better. It was never guaranteed that you would like the Truth. After all, the fact that we have all of these possibilities to work with, means that you can even choose to believe that Yasuda never committed a single murder. What would you do if R07 told you that, in fact, she had been responsible for a third of the corpses, and then set off the bomb to cover everything up, and lived peacefully with Tohya for the rest of her days? You probably wouldn't like that. But, it's possible that it's the Truth. Whether you treat this cat box we're in right now as a privilege or a curse, is up to you. |
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2012-02-06, 18:46 | Link #27783 | |
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2012-02-06, 19:31 | Link #27784 | |
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Additionally, most of the people out there are completely unrelated to the crime. What if regardless of whether you reveal the Truth or not, it will not affect them in a negative manner? If the first is true, then this second theory logically follows. The only thing remaining is the survivors and relatives who do not know the Truth but have the desire to learn. Unfortunately, this last problem is a delicate matter that everyone has different views on, and I'm not going to try and tell you what to believe. I can at least provide a few facts on the matter though: 1. The Truth is too painful for Ange to bear. If this was Eva's motivation for hiding it from her, then she is justified in that belief. 2. Nanjo and Kumasawa are implied to be accomplices. 3. Because of #2, it's easy to imagine that testimony from a witness would make the media hound Nanjo's son much more than he already was being hounded. And we know that this is what he was most concerned with, rather than learning the Truth. 4. Kumasawa's son would also be suffering similarly if it came to light that his mother was an accomplice to a major crime. 5. There would also be the pain from learning that their parents are accomplices, when they were both sure that their parents were innocent, if in fact they were accomplices. Also, we know of no other survivors who do not know the Truth. Obviously, any hypothetical "person X" arguments should not come into the discussion, because they may not even exist, and we have no proof either way. Again, you may believe whatever you wish. I'm only providing theories and data to take into consideration, and asking what your standpoint is on the matter after having considered these things. |
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2012-02-06, 20:14 | Link #27785 | |
Reading your tale. :)
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Location: Just out of sight, eating popcorn. >:D
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@Toku
Natsuhi has a family besides the Ushiromiya, that is, the family she was born into. Jessica had friends when she attented the school in Nijima(One of them is named Saku in the TIPS 'Jessica and the Killer Electric Fan'). And your points don't address Captian Kawabata.I'm not even asking for a public reveal, although that's the most effective way of getting the information to all those affected. Send those people a letter as Beatrice and tell them what you know. This probably won't reach everyone it should, but it's a start. Again, there ARE people who they KNOW exist and are affected by the tragedy. Quote:
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2012-02-06, 20:18 | Link #27786 | ||||
The True Culprit
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What about Jessica's best friends? What about Natsuhi's family? What about Asumu's relatives, who thought Battler was her son? What about Gohda's relatives? What about Nanjo's granddaughter, or Kumasawa's other kids? What about Hideyoshi's relatives? Why does Ange get to decide all of these people's futures without their consent?
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2012-02-06, 20:42 | Link #27787 |
a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
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I've been meaning to ask, given how...pertinent...R07's clarifications in his interviews have been to the discussion of his work, has anyone compiled them into a central location? Might it be a good idea to make a thread suggestion to track or repost his interview translations?
I keep finding I've missed some juicy bit of confirmation or hinting from R07 here and there, such as more or less confirming the hypothesis I've personally kept that episode 7 was demonstrating that Van Dine is not applicable to Beato's gameboard.
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2012-02-06, 20:46 | Link #27788 | |
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As for Kawabata, I can at least point out that while he did say that he was trying to find a personal sense of closure after the incident occurred and that this is why he decided to take Ange over to Rokkenjima, it's heavily implied that he was simply bribed and/or threatened to do so, which would bring his motives back to square one. In fact, if he is willing to ferry a survivor to their death, that forces us to question whether he was really looking for a sense of closure at all. I have another theory that I would like people to take into consideration. I believe this is important because I don't think it has received much attention at all, if any. The explosives on the island were put there by the Japanese Military. These were used to blow the island up. The act of leaving 900 tons of explosives in the hands of an insane old guy and then forgetting about it, especially when it could have very well been what allowed the culprit to kill everyone, would cause the government to receive a lot of negative attention. This provides perfect motivation for the government to attempt to keep the Truth hidden. With this as evidence, we can reason that they influenced the survivors in such a way that would cause them to shut their mouths whether they wanted to or not. Eva was hoping to protect Ange from the Truth anyway. And the idea that nobody ever figured out that Tohya is Ushiromiya Battler when we know that she took him to at least one hospital, is kind of absurd, so we could easily say that the government found out his identity. It would be extremely easy to pressure Tohya, who has a number of rather serious health problems, and regardless of who Yasuda is, she would want to protect him, and would hope that he could stay there with her. |
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2012-02-06, 20:48 | Link #27789 | |||||||
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If some of the tales were written pre incident they could be nothing more but her plans for the incident. She said she had more than one plan ready... The apology can be for planning something like this in the first place. When Beato and Battler escape she says she's guilty but Battler insists she's not guilty in that world. I've always taken it as: "Yasuda planned something bad but for some reasons her plan was twarted and she never directly killed someone, thought her actions caused other people to commit murder" Quote:
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Pretend she actually told to... let's say Krauss that she had turned on the bomb. Krauss grabs a gun and threaten to shot her if she doesn't tell him how to turn it off. Genji tries to protect Yasuda not believing she really turned on the bomb, they fight, there's a shot and George is hit accidentally. Eva joins the party sees George dead and Krauss with a gun, thinks the worst and kill him. And you can go on and on, merely working on people's paranoia. Quote:
Though Erika might be a parallel for other things so I won't go on that way. Quote:
It was implied she was poisoned. Battler found hints about it. |
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2012-02-06, 21:11 | Link #27790 | |||||
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I had forgotten that Nanjo's son thinks his father was a criminal. I thought I remembered him resenting the fact that his father got caught up with such a weird rich family, but maybe I'm wrong. At any rate, I will leave the matter of Nanjo's son at that. Quote:
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Ange is hiding the Truth? At the very least, she wouldn't have even learned the Truth for a full 12 years, after which almost all of the damage has already been done. I don't know of anything more to say on the matter of Ange, so I'll leave it at that. |
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2012-02-06, 21:24 | Link #27791 | |
a.k.a. Akari_House
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2012-02-06, 21:39 | Link #27792 | ||||
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If you happen to find more interviews, please share them, I'd love to read them myself. This is the only interview with Ryukishi that I've read. Quote:
I'd appreciate it if people stop saying that "her actions caused other people to commit murder" because, well, everyone has their own free will. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, that's the very concept of free will if I'm not mistaken. I'm not saying that she had no reason to feel guilty but, for example, if Rosa went nuts and shot several people because she became paranoid and wanted to protect Maria, I am not going to blame that on Yasuda. Rosa pulled that trigger herself, not Yasuda. Quote:
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2012-02-07, 01:18 | Link #27793 | |
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I'll admit that it's somewhat unsubstantiated (I'm also that "pieces can only do what is possible for them" is the same as saying "If you write Jessica too out of character, Saku and co. will call bullshit on you", or something to that effect). On the subject of morality - I'm also in the camp that thinks the characters hiding the truth were being selfish or amoral. My ethics is rusty, so I can't state it well, but it just seems to contrary to common sense. "Oh, shit, a bunch of people just died, except for that one living witness. Should we look into it, maybe? Nah, they're already dead, fuck it." If only we could be so cavalier in every instance of mysterious death. There's also this general sentiment of "You awful, awful people! Trying to solve a crime, how dare you?!" that runs through alot of EP8. It's only the fact that there's no definitive truth that even allows the goats to continue making cruel speculations about the personalities of dead people, in the first place, as if to say, as well, that you can ONLY want to know the truth if you're an insensitive asshole. Which brings me to the next thing - ever since EP6, wheresome sort of Author Theory became pretty apparent, I was waiting for a really good explanation of why someone started writing a series of published novels about these dead people, anyways. The public didn't think very much about the incident at all until the first forgery was found, and Ryukishi seems to be saying that Yasu / Tohya wrote all of the prominent ones, and all we really get is some half hearted line from Beato about "Oh, I guess they took my joke a little too seriously, oops." Don't get the impression that I didn't ENJOY EP8, because I did, and the series as a whole, too. It's just, whenever the matter of "What the hell happened on the real world?" came up, I couldn't help but think "Okay ... ... what in blazes is this man trying to communicate? Because it's sounding awful fucking shady." Last edited by Kealym; 2012-02-07 at 14:23. |
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2012-02-07, 12:22 | Link #27794 |
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Her joke which exhorted people to "find the truth," no less.
Oh, but that wasn't directed at them! I mean when a random message in a bottle tells people who find it to "find the truth," what kind of fool would assume that the public should look for the truth? Or that it's somehow not the root of all evil to look for the truth when someone asked you to? I don't doubt that there are awful speculative types out there, but the truth can silence them. Hiding the truth is actually conceding defeat to the goats, while also harming everyone the truth might actually help. Is that really better on the off chance someone might be harmed by the truth? Nevermind that if there was a murder, there's (at least) one person's reputation that deserves to be harmed by it.
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2012-02-07, 13:22 | Link #27795 | |||
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For the record, I do think it's morally wrong to hide the truth in a situation like this, but my issue here is that Ryukishi seems to saying that hiding the truth is the right thing, but is demonstrating the opposite in his game. All theorizing aside, we're shown a character who is suicidal and completely consumed by not knowing the truth. We're shown a character who has a hateful relationship with her only family member, is erroneously believed to be a murderer, and has no real friends. We're shown a man haunted by the idea that his father is a criminal. Even though I disagree with it, I think Ryukishi could have made a strong argument for hiding the truth, but he didn't. I'm really curious why that is. Quote:
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2012-02-07, 13:34 | Link #27796 | |
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In other words: Not knowing the truth, is the only thing, that keeps Ange alive. So as long as she is not mentally prepared for it, no one would like to tell her the truth. And who knows... maybe if Ange stayed stubborn in EP8 and wouldn't give a damn about Tohya's brain damage problems, then maybe she could just ask him about the real truth in the café. |
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2012-02-07, 13:39 | Link #27797 | |
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Just because people say they'll do one thing when x happens doesn't mean that's actually what they'll do when x happens, as the incidence of x may have altered their perspective on what they intend.
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2012-02-07, 15:43 | Link #27798 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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We don't even know what BATTLER was keeping from Ange. All we know is that he "knows the truth" which in the context of Umineko could mean a number of different things. I mean, does BATTLER himself even know what happened on Prime? Is it knowable? Is that it's not knowable the "truth"?
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2012-02-07, 15:57 | Link #27799 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Maybe Battler doesn't really know what happened... after all everything that happened, only happened from his own perspective. On prime, i doubt that he overheard the conversation of the adults, maybe he didn't even witness any killings/deaths, or only some of them.
Maybe Battler found the tunnels early/solved the epitaph and got lost in the tunnels for the whole time so he didn't get to know anything... Well what i want to say is, that maybe "The Truth" only means, what BATTLER wants Ange to believe in: "The truth is not important". But... really that would be way too... well... cheesy. |
2012-02-07, 16:01 | Link #27800 |
The True Culprit
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I like to think that BATTLER is a construct of Ange's imagination, and he can't tell her anything she doesn't already know. But he doesn't want to admit that because then he'll smash the fuck out of him like she did to the Stakes in EP4.
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