2011-02-04, 19:46 | Link #41 | |
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And no analogy is perfect, but it was meant to illustrate that there was no manipulation was going on. If you want to believe he's evil, sure, fine, go for it. But there has been no evidence of it thus far. As I said, the worst you can say is that he takes advantage of situations to offer once again to Madoka a contract of being a magical girl. And as Fukarming and I mentioned, if you find Kyube evil, then you have to find Luna, Yuuno, Keroberos, Mepple/Mipple, and many other magical animals evil as well. In fact, Kyube is less evil then them, because they practically forced their girls into doing it. Madoka is the first one to just be given the freedom to choose, and to sometimes be told to stay out of it. |
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2011-02-04, 21:31 | Link #42 |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
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I think of Kyuube's alignment as "Neutral Creepy", regardless of the nature of any superior force he serves. Frankly, if Kyuube were some evil manipulator, I feel like it would take the emotional punch out of the conflict, which at present is caused entirely by the magical girls themselves, with their conflicting motivations and ideologies. He offers the girls power and a wish, but he's perfectly clear with them about what they're getting into and what responsibilities are still entirely on their shoulders.
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2011-02-04, 21:53 | Link #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston
Age: 36
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Kyuube IS the most evil of all magical creatures. Here are the reasons:
1. His design: He completely lacks any and all facial emotions. He looks like a freaking creepy ass doll and his lack of any physical emotion makes him all the more in-human and remorseful. 2. His power: The only ability he seems to have is basically 1 wish in exchange for basically slavery. This is almost the same as making a fucking deal with the devil. One wish in exchange for your soul. 3. The magical girls: The girls have to recharge there power from Grief Seeds, but there initial power comes from Kyuube. What does that make Kyuube exactly? 4. How he treats people: When Mami died he just up and looked for the quickest replacement. He didn't even bother to send the girl back when Sayaka became a MG and took no responsibility for his actions. 5. His convenient timing: Just when Mami was about to die Kyuube shows up "Conveniently" to grant her any wish (although she had no choice). When Sayaka was at her breaking point with the boy she loved, who just happened to show up?
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2011-02-04, 23:13 | Link #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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2. Other MG don't even have a wish. The mascot basically brainwash them by saying the world is in danger/ innocents will die...etc and put naive gradeschool and teenage girl on battlefield. 3. Pure speculation. In RPG you get your initial power from a deity being. After that you beat up evil to pick up potions and powerups. So the deity being and evil are in this together? 4. For MG in other series (sailormoon/ CCS/ pretty cure...etc), the mascot lives with the MG for an extended period of time and they develop friendship and stuff. In Madoca Magica Kyubei did not live with the MG (Kyubei stays with Madoka, his biggest potential client, rather than Mami, the MG in that district.) Kyubei and Mami/ Kyoko...etc are simply not that close 5. Opportunistic maybe, but not evil.
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2011-02-04, 23:23 | Link #45 |
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Oh god, I just saw the light... Kyube wanting something... and offering a payment in exchange for a service...
IT'S CAPITALISM! Damn, I'm heading down to the stores to protest this exchange of goods and services right now. We should all be communists, goddamnit. Or socialists! But offering one thing for another and being upfront with the stuff being exchanged? That's fuckin' evil; Lenin and Stalin told me so! So, thanks guys for helping me see the light! I'm glad that you are all like me, and shun this horrid, horrid practice of goods and service exchange. Glad to know that none of you ever bought any type of good nor service!^^ |
2011-02-04, 23:27 | Link #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston
Age: 36
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No, he also lied to them. He did not tell them about the other magical girl who had openly said she was going to kill Sayaka.
Withholding vital information is the same as lying. Gives a better chance to get them to act. I also thought that the whole food chain idea. Witches power is fueled by the death of people MG power is fueled by the death (Grief Seeds) of Witches Where does Kyuube draw his power from? The most extreme and evil thing I can think of is he draws his power from the death of MG...
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2011-02-04, 23:32 | Link #47 | |
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And even if I grant you this, he still was upfront about what he was offering. As he put it, "equivalent exchange" or, you know, the whole freakin' system present in Full Metal Alchemist. Was that evil? Or was it a natural, logical physical principle that also kinda seems to be related to capitalism, too? You know, the whole system that got you that nice computer you're sitting in front of? If you really feel Kyube is evil, you should be giving up the computer because it was purchased in the same manner as how he acquires magical girls. ;p "B-b-but, one form of honest capitalism is good while another is bad! Let me have my cognitive dissonance!" |
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2011-02-04, 23:33 | Link #48 | |
~Official Slacker~
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Xanadu
Age: 29
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2011-02-05, 00:05 | Link #50 |
Seishu's Ace
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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Even this defense of Kyuube is dependent, of course, on the premise that little girls are sufficiently mature enough to make a "capitalist" exchange where the price of the goods and/or services purchased is either their: A. Life, B. Soul or C. Both.
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2011-02-05, 00:09 | Link #51 | |
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But as we've seen in other shows, many other 9-14 year old girls are expected to make life and death decisions, and are forced into combat many times against their own will. If Kyube is evil, then the other shows are downright diabolical. Apply standards evenly. One thing I'd like to know, is why Kyube does only offer these contracts to girls? Are they the only ones with potential? No boys or people over a certain age? Odds are the show won't address this, which leaves it as a big gaping plot hole. |
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2011-02-05, 00:15 | Link #52 | |
Senior Member
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It's amazing how much hate Kyubey is getting for actions that are mild compared to most magical girl "mascot" characters. Seeing fan reaction to him has been fascinating. I feel like I'm getting to see what people really think of certain magical girl character types...
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2011-02-05, 00:17 | Link #53 | |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
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2011-02-05, 00:24 | Link #54 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Every story is its own universe, so it kinda baffles me how you use another series to support your take on this one. I mean, I know there are things like genre conventions, but considering this series is set to subvert these convention to some extent, your approach doesn't seem to make much sense.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising you or anything. I'm just a bit confused about this.
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2011-02-05, 00:26 | Link #55 |
Seishu's Ace
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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Now this is an interesting discussion, and I ask this not as a challenge but as a genuine inquiry: what are some other mascot characters who have done far worse things than Kyuubey's "mild" actions and not been savaged by fans? I confess Mahou Shoujo is not my favorite genre and I haven't watched every series out there, but I've seen quite a few - and not many examples of this are coming to mind.
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2011-02-05, 00:28 | Link #56 | ||
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I'm baffled how you can't. Comparisons have been a fair literary technique for hundreds of years. Quote:
Keroberos in Card Captor Sakura - Made Sakura track down all the cards and recapture them. And some of the cards were pretty dangerous, and she had to undertake some fairly risky missions to get some. And get this: Keroberos was supposed to be guardian of the guards, and it was his job to guard them. He failed, and made Sakura clean up the mess. Mepple/Mipple from Pretty Cure - latched themselves onto two girls and made them fight. Yuuno from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha - Not technically a magical animal. He called for help and Nanoha, a 9 year old girl, responded. He begged her to help him fight a monster that nearly killed him. To his credit, he later came to realize how dangerous it could be for her and tried to tell her he'd take it back over, but she insisted on helping. I'm sure others can call up more, but these are some of the few I remember. |
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2011-02-05, 00:29 | Link #57 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Sakura-chan, it could be argued, was never in any mortal danger, ever. If she had lost, then the worst thing that would have happened is the Clow's legacy would have been lost. Back to QB, I find it odd that he stated in episode 2 that having a soul gem means you have to fight witches, but he doesn't seem concerned at all that Spoiler for Episode 5:
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2011-02-05, 00:40 | Link #58 | ||
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This is drifting a bit off track, but suffice it to say that, compared to some magical animals, Kyube is a damn saint. Madoka is about the only potential MG that has been given the luxury of choosing not to fight. No one else had that. Well, Nanoha technically might have been able to get out of it later, but she chose not to. |
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2011-02-05, 00:42 | Link #59 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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That's why I think the comparison with other shows is not as useful in this case as it would be with a show that follows those conventions instead of trying to subvert them. Kyubey never stated this. It was just Mami and Sayaka mostly the ones who assumed that, and they were/are the more naive of the bunch.
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2011-02-05, 00:45 | Link #60 | |
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I think you can see how that would be a problem. |
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