[Manga] Do you feel sorry for Orihime?

[Saasha]

I thought it was directed at me since yours was the only response I got & being as hungry for a response from someone/anyone, I intentionally took the bait

Sure, I could, if you would point out where exactly you feel she went wrong since I really find all of her behaviour pre/mid/after SS/HM arc very consistent with her character. If you can point out to me the irregularities you find in her behaviour, then I can explain to you why I dont deem them as irregularities?

[Kafriel]

She's the center of attention from all sides and you expect me to feel sorry for her? o_0

[Glacial]

I actually feel terrible for her...she's lost any sort of dignity after what the Espada and Aizen have put her through (especially Nnoi coughfingerscough).

And of all things, people never stop getting angry at her for acting as the timid person she is, so it seems like she's hated by a lot of Bleach fans as well as mistreated in the story itself. I could only imagine how she'd feel if she were a real person :/

Every time I see her I just hope for her time coming soon, when she'll finally stop appearing "useless" and direct the plot in some way.

Remember what Hacchi told her, "Remember that it's never 'how it should be,' it's 'how do you want it to be.'" Foreshadowing plzzzz

[Kakashi]

There are times I feel sorry for Orihime, it goes back to a point I made a while back:

This discussion and many previous topics about Orihime all go back to what kind of character she is in Bleach. Its unfortunate that many of her detractors view her in Shounen style goggles and can't appreciate a character like her set in that kind of atmosphere. What attracts me to her is she posseses human and mortal characteristics unlike the typical card-board cutout shounen fighting characters. Throughout the HM arc, she has struggled immensely through different emotional states, some seeing it as a sign of weakness, but those who appreciate it can see it as strength as she at her core is a pacifist. That kind of idealism is as strong or exceeds violence as a solution.

However, while that sounds nice idealistically, it doesn't make life very easy for her in this type of manga. The problem is that aside from Rukia, no one's really helped her. People like Ulquiorra questioning her motives and lack of action once she does do something doesn't help matters. She looked absolutely crushed when Ichigo asked her to step back because it was too dangerous, even if he had good intentions, he's not helping her build up momentum. Ishida did the same thing in SS, as did Urahara -- his being the most brutal.

Spoiler for MANGA SPOILER:

On the other hand, she looks great...

Spoiler for MANGA SPOILER:

[Kafriel]

No need for spoiler tags in manga threads, right?

Spoiler for But I'm gonna use one anyway:

She's the kind of character that puts everyone in danger, lacking the willpower to fight but still going,besides being by far weaker than the others.Even when captured, she rarely maintains her state of mind, and saying "I exist for Aizen-sama" indicates a rather submissive personality, much like Tousen's "I go where justice lies" way of thinking.When Ichigo was fighting, Nel (who had met him not long ago) believed in him more than Inoue did,the only time I actually pitied her was when Grimmjow tied her up.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

No need for spoiler tags in manga threads, right?

Spoiler for But I'm gonna use one anyway:

She's the kind of character that puts everyone in danger, lacking the willpower to fight but still going,besides being by far weaker than the others.Even when captured, she rarely maintains her state of mind, and saying "I exist for Aizen-sama" indicates a rather submissive personality, much like Tousen's "I go where justice lies" way of thinking.When Ichigo was fighting, Nel (who had met him not long ago) believed in him more than Inoue did,the only time I actually pitied her was when Grimmjow tied her up.

You're ignoring so much information. Inoue has decided to be as cooperative as possible to make them "like" her, so that they won't go back on their word and kill her friends. I highly suggest you go back and actually read her dialogue rather than skipping/skimming through them.

[Solachinx]

Originally Posted by Saasha

Sry, I'm not sure if I got you? Do you mean that you felt sorry for her in the SS arc but you dont anymore or did I get you wrong? If I didnt get you wrong, then may I ask why?

No, you're correct. I mean, back when it was the Substitute arc, Orihime's backstory, her loss for her brother, and her lessannoyingthannow love for Ichigo appealed to me. I also loved her character development during her fight against the hollow.

Then, they entered the Soul Society and she lost all appeal to me due to the lack of true character development. Granted, the very start of the HM arc (particularly vol. 24 - 27) had some good development and some scenes with Ulquiorra had good development as well, but now it's almost nonexistant.

That's why I no longer feel bad for Orihime.

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

You're ignoring so much information. Inoue has decided to be as cooperative as possible to make them "like" her, so that they won't go back on their word and kill her friends. I highly suggest you go back and actually read her dialogue rather than skipping/skimming through them.

It's not like she couldn't reject Ulquiorra's existence and bring her friends back to life later (Hacchi told her she can fight if she chooses to beforehand), in the entire series Orihime is the only character who can act with no consequences thanks to her powers, yet instead of having (even a limited) display of free will, she gets caught in other people's opinions...guess I can't really complain though,the characters are made with a predetermined behaviour pattern.

[Endrance]

I feel sorry for her for the same reason i dont like her...the fact that she has so much potential but is unable to utilize those abilities she has to their fullest

[Saasha]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

It's not like she couldn't reject Ulquiorra's existence and bring her friends back to life later

Right, So you'd rather she thought, 'Hey, Its totally okay for my friends to get seriously thrashed or even die, since I can heal them or bring them back to life anyway, so, what's the big deal? I'm just going to stand here and refuse to cooperate with ulqui even though I'm aware that he wants only me and will leave my friends alone if he gets what he wants. Oh and I could totally reject his existence cause it you know it worked sooo well when I tried it on yammi.' Come on, you really think she had any other choice or you or even rukia would have behaved any differently? Didnt rukia do pretty much the same thing when she willingly let herself be taken to soul society so that Ichigo's life could be spared?

(Hacchi told her she can fight if she chooses to beforehand), in the entire series Orihime is the only character who can act with no consequences thanks to her powers, yet instead of having (even a limited) display of free will, she gets caught in other people's opinions...guess I can't really complain though,the characters are made with a predetermined behaviour pattern.

I believe she has displayed plenty of free will from time to time in the HM arc as much as she was capable of in her situation. She chose to leave with ulqui to protect her friends. She decides to reject the hougyoku once she's shown where it is by Aizen. She makes up her mind to pretend to be Aizen's lackey so she can follow up on her decision to reject the hougyoku. She chooses not to descend down to loli & menoli's level by not retaliating against their brutality & instead stares right back at them with pity and defiance in her eyes. She slaps ulqui for his callous statement. She defies Grimmjow's orders. I could go on really but I'll stop now. All this is a manifestation of her free will, you cannot claim otherwise. In contrast, Rukia actually didnt do much at all, she was way more passive than orihime, though in her defence, rukia hadn't yet come to terms with her feelings of guilt regarding Kaien's death.

Pretty much all the bleach characters are dancing to Aizen's tune, Orihime isnt an exception to this rule.

[Saasha]

Originally Posted by Kakashi

There are times I feel sorry for Orihime, it goes back to a point I made a while back:



However, while that sounds nice idealistically, it doesn't make life very easy for her in this type of manga. The problem is that aside from Rukia, no one's really helped her. People like Ulquiorra questioning her motives and lack of action once she does do something doesn't help matters. She looked absolutely crushed when Ichigo asked her to step back because it was too dangerous, even if he had good intentions, he's not helping her build up momentum. Ishida did the same thing in SS, as did Urahara -- his being the most brutal.

Well said. I completely agree with you. The fact that this issue has been repeatedly brought up means that orihime will probably get positive development in this area, once she is able to get in touch with her inner fighting spirit or smthing to that effect.

[Saasha]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

No need for spoiler tags in manga threads, right?
[SPOILER="But I'm gonna use one anyway"]She's the kind of character that puts everyone in danger, lacking the willpower to fight but still going, besides being by far weaker than the others.

She still goes because she possess a power that could make a difference, even if it is slight, because its better than sitting at home & doing nothing, because she's the only one who can make sure that her friends are alive after the fight. Her friends are in danger whether she's around them or not. And you've really got that backwards, Its being around Ichigo that puts everyone in danger. Ichigo was weaker than ulqui & yammi, so was chad. So, by your logic, is it Ichigo or chad's fault that orihime & Tatsuki got hurt?

Even when captured, she rarely maintains her state of mind, and saying "I exist for Aizen-sama" indicates a rather submissive personality, much like Tousen's "I go where justice lies" way of thinking.When Ichigo was fighting, Nel (who had met him not long ago) believed in him more than Inoue did,the only time I actually pitied her was when Grimmjow tied her up.

Like Hayashi Takara pointed out you're ignoring a lot of things like Inoue being intentionally cooperative to mislead them, Inoue naturally & realistically fearing that the hollow would devour Ichigo like it did her brother having nothing to do with not believing in Ichigo not to mention all Nel did to restore Inoue's courage was to repeat the very same words Inoue herself used to reassure a scared Nel.

[Saasha]

Originally Posted by Solachinx

No, you're correct. I mean, back when it was the Substitute arc, Orihime's backstory, her loss for her brother, and her lessannoyingthannow love for Ichigo appealed to me. I also loved her character development during her fight against the hollow.

Then, they entered the Soul Society and she lost all appeal to me due to the lack of true character development. Granted, the very start of the HM arc (particularly vol. 24 - 27) had some good development and some scenes with Ulquiorra had good development as well, but now it's almost nonexistant.

That's why I no longer feel bad for Orihime.

Oh, Okay. The thing about her character development is its been slowly building up from day 1 & it looks like its gonna drag on up untill the end of Bleach. I dont believe she ever stopped developing though I guess that can get frustrating for some people. I'm Okay with it since I really like her character & dont feel like her love for Ichigo is annoying at all.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

It's not like she couldn't reject Ulquiorra's existence and bring her friends back to life later (Hacchi told her she can fight if she chooses to beforehand), in the entire series Orihime is the only character who can act with no consequences thanks to her powers, yet instead of having (even a limited) display of free will, she gets caught in other people's opinions...guess I can't really complain though,the characters are made with a predetermined behaviour pattern.

Did I miss something? When did Orihime become an ubergod? Last time she tryed to reject an Espada out of existance with all her will power, Yami completly crushed her atack. While she has gotten stronger since then I doubt that she could efertlessly kill any of the Espada and Ulquiorra even more so since last I checked The main hero is feeling completly outmatched. And even if she could she would still have to take on Azein and the rest of the Espada. So basicly to do what you say she could/should have done she would have to be even more broken then Azein and single handedly win the war. Yeah I see that happening.

Also Hacchi did not tell her "she can fight if she chooses to beforehand." He said "I too can not recommend that you fight. If your powers are like mine then you are not suited for fighting, especially when your opponents are the arrancar." and "You have not yet mastered your own abilities surely there is a means for you to fight. Please keep this in mind. Whats important is not "how it should be" but rather "how do you want it to be"" These statments a) show he does not thing her powers are good for combat, b) he thinks she should be able to fight with them but does not realy know how, and c) hints a little at how her powers work before Azien told her. Thats almost completely opisite of what you stated.

Others have already pointed out the free will thing and again I will remind you that sofar everyone has been danceing to Azein's tune and they are even more likely to if they tink they are going against him as shinji found out.

[Glacial]

Originally Posted by kagato3

Last time she tryed to reject an Espada out of existance with all her will power, Yami completly crushed her atack.

I just wanted to nitpick and point out that the fairies she uses for phenomenon rejection are DIFFERENT from the one she used to attack Yammy.

For all we know, that guy-fairy (Tsubaki? I really suck at remembering the names) she launched at Yammy is only capable of using a shield to cut an opponent, nothing more.

I believe the same fairies that are used to "heal" people (as many call it) are the ones used for phenomenon rejection because THEY were the ones analyzed by Ulquiorra, and later Aizen. The guy who got crushed was never technically analyzed when Yammy and Ulquiorra initially arrived to KK town.

Furthermore, phenomenon rejection means she would have to choose the specific phenomenon to reject. She can "heal" because she denies that the person ever got hurt. She can reject the hougyoku's existence by denying that it was ever created. However, denying a hollow's birth just seems much much more complex, as she even knows who created the Hougyoku, and has known since Aizen's explanation at Soukyoku Hill.

However, I do agree with you, though it's because we don't know whether she can reject a living being "out of existence." We just know she wanted to reject the Hougyoku. I do think it's been hinted that she can be very useful in the front lines of battle, but she's eons of character development away from this point.

Just like Ichigo, she doesn't understand the full extent of her powers she can access, and I hope that all the foreshadowing we've gotten won't be for nil in the end :/

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by Glacial

For all we know, that guy-fairy (Tsubaki? I really suck at remembering the names) she launched at Yammy is only capable of physical damage, nothing more.

I :/

That is incorrect Tsubaki is the only one who can reject BOTH inside and outside the barrier. His attack power depends on Orihime. Its because she has no intent to kill, he fails as an attack. She isn't a fighter..so she can't use him properly. He has to be launched with the intent to kill not sting ...

[Glacial]

Originally Posted by hakisak

That is incorrect Tsubaki is the only one who can reject BOTH inside and outside the barrier.

edit: found the chapter I think you meant
43, page 15 right?

Tsubaki said he can "split the enemy into two," that's not the same as rejecting existence.

Longer version is: he can "break through the enemy, put a shield up, and 'repel' the combined substance"

I'm gonna have to defend by saying that repelling a substance is not the same as rejecting it out of existence, and this is evidenced by him calling it "splitting the enemy in two."

Now I'll admit we know a little more than what I said we do know because of this, but it still does not mean Tsubaki has the power to reject a living being out of existence.

Additionally, the time it worked, we clearly see he slashed through a hollow's mask, and then it died as a normal hollow would, which further supports what I'm saying

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

I pity her as much as I feel sorry for her.

I'm in agreement with Kakashi's PoV.

Glacial:

Spoiler for For Glacial:

I felt like reading a few of the shorter more interesting arcs this afternoon, and tbh I think Orihime had some of her best cool points for fighting in the 'Princess and Dragon' arc (chp 41-43). I think she probably just needs the correct motivation to protect stuff, Ichigo confuses her too much emotionally, Tatsuki was 'just' a friend so she didn't hesitate at all. Although admittedly at the moment there are other factors limiting her.

She did look cool back then (first pic)... and it was a long time before she pulled that off again, well something close to it (second pic). Definitely has more fighting spirit in the first pic (before all her dreams were squashed).

Spoiler for First Panel:

Spoiler for Last Panel, Manga Spoiler Chp 341:

[hakisak]

Originally Posted by Glacial

edit: found the chapter I think you meant
43, page 15 right?

Tsubaki said he can "split the enemy into two," that's not the same as rejecting existence.

Longer version is: he can "break through the enemy, put a shield up, and 'repel' the combined substance"

I'm gonna have to defend by saying that repelling a substance is not the same as rejecting it out of existence, and this is evidenced by him calling it "splitting the enemy in two."

Now I'll admit we know a little more than what I said we do know because of this, but it still does not mean Tsubaki has the power to reject a living being out of existence.

Additionally, the time it worked, we clearly see he slashed through a hollow's mask, and then it died as a normal hollow would, which further supports what I'm saying

Who translated it?

[tbl]

No, I do not feel sorry for her. Her life is no more tragic than many other characters in Bleach, let alone other anime series, let alone other fiction, let alone real life.

Originally Posted by Endrance

I feel sorry for her for the same reason i dont like her...the fact that she has so much potential but is unable to utilize those abilities she has to their fullest

I am so glad that she has not lived up to her potential. If she did, her powers would be even more broken then Aizen's. Moreover, hardly anyone dies in Bleach as it is, let alone the protagonists. Orihime's powers aren't going to help.

Originally Posted by Partygal1914

I just want to know how many people who don't feel sorry for Orihime are fans or die hard fans of Rukia?? Cause it always seems as if people who are die hard Rukia fans really have no love for Orihime. (personally i happen to like them both on equal terms)

...

Plus it's a shounen manga and anime people! There is almost always a character similar to her in these types of stories! There is always that one girl character that is girly and emotional! Do the people who hate her character hate those other female characters as much as they dislike Orihime? All the female characters can't be all butch and strong with no soft side!! (NOT to say that all other female characters a butch!) It would be a manga with no storyline and no feeling. Then the anime and manga would really suck!! pluse if her character wasn't in the story than alot of you wouldn't have a character to loathe and have such hatred for!

I dislike Orihime for the same reason I like Rukia.

Yes, there does have to be a character with a soft side and I can live with that. But not one where the entire arc is focused on that characters angst. Furthermore, Orihime pretty much only has a soft side.

Originally Posted by ipernorris

I think Rukia and Inoue are useless on the battle-field before their strength is ridicule if compared to the Espada or the Vaizards. Their function is to be an "emotional trigger" for Ichigo: it has been clearly shown in the Ichigo vs Grimmjaw fight. Until Inoue was scared about Ichigo he was losing, after she gained new trust in him and shown that to him Ichigo started winning again.

When Ichigo went to save Rukia, the reasons were a lot more complex than "she's my nakama, I have to save her. Q.E.D." This just makes the HM arc feel a bit more like a cheap knock off of the SS arc.

This discussion and many previous topics about Orihime all go back to what kind of character she is in Bleach. Its unfortunate that many of her detractors view her in Shounen style goggles and can't appreciate a character like her set in that kind of atmosphere. What attracts me to her is she posseses human and mortal characteristics unlike the typical card-board cutout shounen fighting characters. Throughout the HM arc, she has struggled immensely through different emotional states, some seeing it as a sign of weakness, but those who appreciate it can see it as strength as she at her core is a pacifist. That kind of idealism is as strong or exceeds violence as a solution.

What you describe has been done before and done better, a whole lot better. Such a struggle isn't entertaining when it becomes too wangsty. Angst isn't entertaining unless done very well (Zeta Gundam) but even then, I don't like it. Take Shinji for instance, I couldn't stand his character but luckily Neon Genesis Evangelion was a superbly written series, and let's be honest, we do not watch Bleach for the same reason we watched Evangelion. Furthermore, Asuka had just as many emotional problems as Shinji, why do you think many people found her character more entertaining and preferable to watch?

Strength comes from conviction, belief in yourself and belief in others. Orihime has no such strength. She is timid and angsty. Her one sided 'love'? No, that isn't love. It is a 15 year old's crush. Her crush is just annoying.

Her character also lack's a lot of good qualities in a literary sense. She has barely done anything apart from being kidnapped. And considering how much page/screen time she has gotten...

If you want poorly written emotional and love issues as well as plenty of angst, read Twilight of something.