[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[desirebluesky]

...what exactly is Enoura theory?
the only thing i managed to google up is that it's an area in Odawara

[Jan-Poo]

It was mentioned in Ep4. It is a theory about the epitaph's solution that is pretty popular among the japanese umineko community.

I don't remember the details, but the theory claims that Odawara is the homeland, and the river is the railway that runs through it.

If you go down you find a village, that village is Enoura. Don't remember the details about "the two" and "the shore" but they had something to do with the kanji reading of places around it.

using the same reading of ENOURA you can use differrent kanji that will compose the sentence: "behind the picture".



The main problem with this theory is that we can be 99.9% sure the homeland is not Odawara.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

No, I mean, was the gender of the original child ever stated? The one who fell off the cliff with the servant?

I'll ask this again. Trust me, it might be important.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'll ask this again. Trust me, it might be important.

I looked back at the game earlier today, but didn't find any mention of the child's gender. Although it IS implied to be male, considering how the 19th caller is identified as a male and is always calling Natsuhi 'mother'.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

I looked back at the game earlier today, but didn't find any mention of the child's gender. Although it IS implied to be male, considering how the 19th caller is identified as a male and is always calling Natsuhi 'mother'.

Glee. And since there is no mention there is no real proof, and so...


Theory:

The child that fell off the cliff 19 years ago... is Shannon, who is the daughter of the Beatrice who died in 1967. (And since judging by how that Beatrice took the name of her probable mother (who died before 1952), Shannon has inherited the name "Beatrice".)

The caller, the so-called 'man from 19 years ago', is Kanon, calling on Shannon's behalf.


Thoughts?

[Jan-Poo]

that would be a 3 year difference °°

Considering she was there at the age of 6.... you are implying they made a 9 years old girl pass for a 6 years old girl. °°;

Not completely impossible... maybe, but still hard. And... what would be the reason? In the case of the theory of Battler being that child we had a reason... since it implies a substitution. and a 1 year difference is more acceptable.


If you think that child was female, the first that comes to my mind is Jessica rather than Shannon.

[Marion]

Natsuhi says the child isn't Jessica, because one year later she conceived Jessica

Although in the game there is something to support that theory to a sense: Natsuhi says that she only ever told Shannon that she loves autumn. And there is the autumn card. But that could be a trick

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Theory:

The child that fell off the cliff 19 years ago... is Shannon, who is the daughter of the Beatrice who died in 1967. (And since judging by how that Beatrice took the name of her probable mother (who died before 1952), Shannon has inherited the name "Beatrice".)

The caller, the so-called 'man from 19 years ago', is Kanon, calling on Shannon's behalf.

It's an interesting theory... We'd need to construct an opportunity for Kanon to make the calls first, though. That's probably not hard for most of the calls, but the one at midnight has a lot of red restricting it.

Kanon was in the dining room at midnight.
None of the people in the dining room left until 1am.
Genji and Natsuhi were in the 2nd floor hallway at midnight.
Genji informed Natsuhi about a call and then went directly back to the waiting room.

So in order for Kanon to be the man from 19 years ago, we need to get around that somehow.

1. The call at midnight was not from the man from 19 years ago. Someone else called and the subject of the conversation was different from what we were shown.

2. The call did not take place at midnight. The time was falsified by Lambdadelta just like for the letter and knock. Genji, Natsuhi, and Krauss were in the hallway at midnight for a reason unrelated to the phone call.

3. Kanon made the call from the dining room. Probably he couldn't have done so without the knowledge of everyone else in the room, but since there may have been a concerted effort by people who were at the conference to fake a bunch of people's deaths for the first twilight, this isn't totally unthinkable.

Did I miss anything?

[Jan-Poo]

That autumn card trick proved that Natsuhi is dim-witted. Maybe that was really the only card and there was no cheap trick. But a smart person would have thought about this possibility.

However if I turn the chessboard over, that mystery young man must be aware of the fact that Natsuhi never told anyone about her favorite seasons. To be honest, it's not like every people has a favorite season. So the culprit knew Natsuhi has a favorite season, he pretty much implied he knew that season wasn't summer, and he knew Natsuhi didn't tell it to many people. Possibly... he knew that Shannon was the only one to know.
Well this last one is hard to believe. Even Shannon herself couldn't know this. How can she know that Krauss has never been told? Even if she asked Krauss directly, it wouldn't be surprising if Krauss has been told such a thing and then he forgot, that's the typical thing a man would forget about his wife.

But maybe I'm just speculating too much, and the mystery young man has just been very lucky in hitting the right spot.

[Renall]

Shannon could've told anyone, really. The red text that Natsuhi speaks is for our benefit as readers. She only told Shannon. That's the truth, full stop. Who Shannon told, we don't know. But it means the person calling had to have learned from Shannon, either accidentally or through her willing participation.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

that would be a 3 year difference °°

Considering she was there at the age of 6.... you are implying they made a 9 years old girl pass for a 6 years old girl. °°;

Not completely impossible... maybe, but still hard.

I will point out that Shannon at 16 looks nothing like a 16-year-old, and Shannon at 14 most definitely does not look like a 14-year-old.

It's possible indeed.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And... what would be the reason?

Don't ask me. Motive for anything has always been a problem in Umineko...

Originally Posted by Renall

Shannon could've told anyone, really. The red text that Natsuhi speaks is for our benefit as readers. She only told Shannon. That's the truth, full stop. Who Shannon told, we don't know. But it means the person calling had to have learned from Shannon, either accidentally or through her willing participation.

Which is why I suspected Kanon... the servants are obviously in on something together, and George probably sounds too old to be a "young man".

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Which is why I suspected Kanon... the servants are obviously in on something together, and George probably sounds too old to be a "young man".

Since when is 23 too old to sound like a young man? If you were to listen to a 23 year old and a 19 year old, I doubt that there'd be any or much of a difference at all.

[Jan-Poo]

They say that voice actors were handpicked by Ryukishi, and many people were surprised that George's voice sounded younger than expected.

I will point out that Shannon at 16 looks nothing like a 16-year-old, and Shannon at 14 most definitely does not look like a 14-year-old.

It's possible indeed.

Well... as I said the problem is at younger age ^^; we don't know how Shannon looked like when she was 9.

[Volcanic]

Kaisos, I am jumping on the bandwagon for your theory. That Autumn trick just sold it, why didn't we notice before? xDD

@Jan-Poo: I have friends who are pretty short. It's possible that Shannon was really small when she was younger and hit a growth spurt at a time that everyone else thought was "early" for most people, but was really at a normal time. Like Kaisos said, Shannon doesn't look 16 to me now that I think about it.

Which brings us to another point: do you think Shannon is the culprit\mastermind? Or Kanon, for that matter?

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Theory:

The child that fell off the cliff 19 years ago... is Shannon, who is the daughter of the Beatrice who died in 1967. (And since judging by how that Beatrice took the name of her probable mother (who died before 1952), Shannon has inherited the name "Beatrice".)

The caller, the so-called 'man from 19 years ago', is Kanon, calling on Shannon's behalf.

Thoughts?

Two events:
-Beatrice falls off a cliff in 1967
-A servant and a child fall off a cliff in 1967

The first event was observed by Rosa and the second observed by Natsuhi. The way they were described made me think they were independent of each other. Something is wrong here.

[Kitsu]

Well... as I said the problem is at younger age ^^; we don't know how Shannon looked like when she was 9.

Her actually being older would explain why she always seem to act a lot more mature than Kanon and sometimes even than Jessica.
Also this way George wouldn|t be such a lolicon (she was 14 and he 21 when they first started dating)

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Since when is 23 too old to sound like a young man? If you were to listen to a 23 year old and a 19 year old, I doubt that there'd be any or much of a difference at all.

There's a huge difference between George and Kanon, though. >_>

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Which brings us to another point: do you think Shannon is the culprit\mastermind? Or Kanon, for that matter?

I've always believe that if there is a mastermind, they're not even on the island. Why on earth would you get yourself personally involved in something like that?

However, I do believe that Shannon is 'Beatrice' (and probably some component of Meta-Beatrice as well) and that Kanon is definitely a pawn of the mastermind. I don't think Shannon actually wants to kill anyone, though.

I think she's being used. Her sin is "Greed".... easily the most positive of the sins, and it's all about wanting something you're not allowed to have...

Originally Posted by Ssol

Two events:
-Beatrice falls off a cliff in 1967
-A servant and a child fall off a cliff in 1967

The first event was observed by Rosa and the second observed by Natsuhi. The way they were described made me think they were independent of each other. Something is wrong here.

Indeed. It could simply be ironic coincidence... or it could be the same event as viewed from multiple perspectives.

[Kitsu]

I think she's being used. Her sin is "Greed".... easily the most positive of the sins, and it's all about wanting something you're not allowed to have...

The most positive? You do realize that the thing you just said is just the slightest form of it. Greed is also the never stopping desire after all kind of things, it can be deeply bounded to the sin of Lust or Envy. Greed is also the sin which is the one that can be really destructive due never ending desire and wantig more after you got it.

There's a huge difference between George and Kanon, though. >_>

Kanon sounds like a girl, george doesn't, you mean that?

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I've always believe that if there is a mastermind, they're not even on the island. Why on earth would you get yourself personally involved in something like that?

I've always thought that too actually Was just wondering. I've always though Shannon was a staker though, at least in EP4.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Indeed. It could simply be ironic coincidence... or it could be the same event as viewed from multiple perspectives.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this...?

[Kitsu]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this...?

I thoght about it myself so I think I can explain. Kaisos means that Rosa and Natsuhi saw the same accidence, means Beatrice dies and Servant+Child dies is basically the same thing. i stopped after getting mindf**ked, also that meant Rosa lied in EP 3