Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Sansker]

Let’s be fair here. Thoma might not be as good as Nanoha but who could really top her? She is still the most efficient character in combat

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Thoma might not be as good as Nanoha but who could really top her?

Fern Corrado comes to mind.

[Sansker]

When Nanoha was 9 and I always consider that a little stupid but still... I think Nanoha can handle her.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Fern Corrado comes to mind.

I must assume Fern Corrado have limits on her efficiency by this point, she was already an elder woman when Nanoha was 9-11 years old, it was very impressive that she managed to beat Nanoha and Fate with standar equipement like that but they were pretty naive by that point (the Wolks holding back and being generally honorable opponents helped them a lot during A's).

The first question that came to my mind was "if she's sooo awesome why isn't she the one fighting the important battles?" ...the the answer came, probably in her youth she could do that but currently she'll probablu won't be able to sustain her 100% in a battle for long, a mock battle against two good little girls (no matter how strong they are) is still much less dangerous than a real battle against bloodthirsty foes (take Zest for example, he's probably stronger than all four captains combined yet he still got himself killed in a surprise ambush by the numbers of all people, the same goes for Quint who by power scalation must be one of the most fearsome fist fighters the TSAB had ever recruited yet she suffered the same fate as Zest against arguably much weaker opponents xDU).

Lame upgrades aside, Nanoha is a total pro by now, much more hardened and aware in combat than the innocent girl she was. I'm pretty sure she could win a rematch against Miss Corrado by now xD

[Sansker]

Maybe you are right but I never buy the old lady beating Nanoha and Fate without effort as they put it in the manga. By that point there were still young and made mistakes, agree, but they also fight one on one with stronger and more experience opponents than Fern Corrado. At one point Signum did had to admit Fate was forcing her to fight for real, so… an ancient, yet still with a young body, Belka knight has problems but an old lady with a generic device can beat them easily? Did I miss something there?

Maybe I won’t mind it that much if we actually see it or get a good explanation. Base on what happen in that manga chapter I can assume Fern shoot first before the other two were ready. I mean, after all, the meaning of the strength is deliver a quick and finishing blow to the opponent as fast as you can if I remember right. But is no important and will be best address in the StrikerS thread. The same for Zest and Quint.

Back to Force we do seem to have a problem with the rookies… again. I mean this time the Grendel were beating them, even some of the old trainees, and they were able to fight back only when Cypha arrive. Besides it was address they are still below the old Forwards, which are still below the Aces, which don’t handle this on their own because… the plot says so. I can’t help it but to laugh when I see Fate and Nanoha arriving at the place where the Grendel went capture after the fight. I mean, I know they like each other that much but they were on duty, otherwise I can’t explain why they weren’t there to help.

But the one who get it worse was Hayate. When I see the image of her and her Fortress (By the way I still think Caro’s Mini-Fortress was really stupid) I assume she was going to enter the battle and what did she do? Nothing. She just stands on the top of a building in her combat gear for no reason. While that will make sense if she did use a giant robot and they were putting her as a security measure I don’t think makes sense when she can just activate her power and go to anything that may attack them in like 2 seconds. And that is another reason why I don’t trust just images on manga or like all the elements from mecha series Nanoha has.

[Akiyoshi]

Guess the Forwards reached the limit of their growth but even then they're doing a better job than Vita and Signum in fighting EC Drivers so i guess it's balanced xDU

As for Hayate is still soon to discard her involvement in battle (i think it's pretty uncreative to give her anopther Fortress unit but well), as far as i know she's close to the area where the 2nd Section Six VS. Huckebein fight is about to take place so she may take her chance to make a comeback (hope it won't be as bland as Signum's own on Ch. 24 -_-).

[Kaijo]

Because the Nanoha series has shown time and time again that it is not all about power levels. If all you can comprehend is power levels, you might want to stick with dragonball Z. This series emphasizes tactics. Chrono beat Fate easily with tactics, and that was Fern's big lesson to Nanoha and Fate. Power plays a role, sure, but it's not the be-all end-all.

And Signum, like the rest of the wolkies, is basically frozen as far as power goes. And with damaged memories, they don't really have centuries of experience to draw on. Chrono taught Fate, and with an upgraded device, it's not odd that Fate can keep up with her.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because the Nanoha series has shown time and time again that it is not all about power levels. If all you can comprehend is power levels, you might want to stick with dragonball Z. This series emphasizes tactics. Chrono beat Fate easily with tactics, and that was Fern's big lesson to Nanoha and Fate. Power plays a role, sure, but it's not the be-all end-all.

It is for the Huckebein at least, no matter how much skill the heroes have, without "power" to face them they're screwed, that's the very reason behind the replacement of their old devices.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And Signum, like the rest of the wolkies, is basically frozen as far as power goes. And with damaged memories, they don't really have centuries of experience to draw on. Chrono taught Fate, and with an upgraded device, it's not odd that Fate can keep up with her.

Body memory is better than cognitive memory, or else it won't be exaplined how Signum manage to use Laevatein like without slashing herself 9 times out of 10 xDU ...but if that's true then that explains why Signum can barerly keep up in a fight with anyone since StrikerS.

Altough you seem to be right on the pwoer levels of the Wolks, they're stuck with what they originally had and to make matters worse they're actually growing weaker over time as oppossed to the rest of the cast xDU

[Justin_Brett]

[citation needed]

[Kaijo]

Justin, it's Aki talking about the Wolkies. Just... don't go there. (if you were responding to him)

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

It is for the Huckebein at least, no matter how much skill the heroes have, without "power" to face them they're screwed, that's the very reason behind the replacement of their old devices.

I didn't say that power was totally out of the equation; I said it was only a part. I said tactics accounts for a great deal, and one may consider that upgrading/changing devices, falls under tactics. As is learning how your enemy fights, so you can outmaneuver them. As Nanoha said in the 1st movie, "Wisdom and tactics."

[Justin_Brett]

Hey, I got him to shut up about it on TV Tropes.

[LostSome]

Curren and Hardis are not stupid enough to "have to win battles".
So far, they are avoiding having to fight to win.
And Cypha was gathering info on the new AEC during the entire fight with Signum.
"Wisdom and tactics" goes both ways.
I might get surprised later, but so far, I`m not impressed...

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I didn't say that power was totally out of the equation; I said it was only a part. I said tactics accounts for a great deal, and one may consider that upgrading/changing devices, falls under tactics. As is learning how your enemy fights, so you can outmaneuver them. As Nanoha said in the 1st movie, "Wisdom and tactics."

It depends on the circuntances, the upgrade in A's was more about power rather than tactics (Fate almost beat Vita before upgrading xDU). In FORCE it's less about how to fight the Hucks and more about getting weapons that doesn't suck against them (CW is still working on that it seems xDU).

When the power aspect is evened it's when skill comes to matter again. Signum does seemingly decent against Cypha with her new toys until Cypha said "screw this" and promptly proceed to squash Signum's shield with raw strenght before leaving the place. Demostrating that she still effectively outclases Signum in terms of power (not that difficult to accomplish currently but still).

EDIT:

Originally Posted by LostSome

And Cypha was gathering info on the new AEC during the entire fight with Signum.

Indeed, that's morelikely one of the reasons as of why Cypha even agreed to a fight that hadn't any sort of meaning to her then current task. She was already heading to leave when Signum appeared and started picking up a fight with her xDU

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by LostSome

Curren and Hardis are not stupid enough to "have to win battles".
So far, they are avoiding having to fight to win.
And Cypha was gathering info on the new AEC during the entire fight with Signum.
"Wisdom and tactics" goes both ways.
I might get surprised later, but so far, I`m not impressed...

Proves my point exactly.... it's tactics, rather than power, that contribute the most to victory determination. And frankly, this is one of the reasons I am impressed by this series. Rather than resort to power levels, or sudden nakama power ups, it all comes down to who planned enough in advance, and who out-thought who during the fight. Even losing a fight might not mean much... witness Nove's loss to Einhart, but ultimately succeeding in placing a tracking device, so she won by losing.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

It depends on the circuntances, the upgrade in A's was more about power rather than tactics (Fate almost beat Vita before upgrading xDU).

It was Fate and Arf vs. Vita, 2 on 1, so not exactly the circumstances you would want to point to.

In FORCE it's less about how to fight the Hucks and more about getting weapons that doesn't suck against them (CW is still working on that it seems xDU).

Partially true, but Hayate's iceberg would indicate otherwise. And we already know Nanoha and Fate are capable of launching kinetic attacks that are just assisted by magic. Remember, the new weapons are mainly prototypes being tested and adjusted, with plans to roll them out to regular mage forces. It would be harder for the power trio to fight without the new weapons, but not impossible.

When the power aspect is evened it's when skill comes to matter again. Signum does seemingly decent against Cypha with her new toys until Cypha said "screw this" and promptly proceed to squash Signum's shield with raw strenght before leaving the place.

Even though you're referring to the second fight, you do help prove my point if you think back to the first fight: Signum would have defeated Cypha, had she gone for a killing shot, instead of slicing off just the arm. If anything, it was Signum's concern for Thoma, and her "nicer" nature that netted her the loss.

The decision on when or if to maim or kill, is also part of tactics. In this case, being "good" ultimately backfired.

[LostSome]

I was just pointing out that I`m not impressed by S6`s tactics so far, not the series.

BTW : Sorry for mentioning those fights with Aki around...

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Proves my point exactly.... it's tactics, rather than power, that contribute the most to victory determination. And frankly, this is one of the reasons I am impressed by this series. Rather than resort to power levels, or sudden nakama power ups, it all comes down to who planned enough in advance, and who out-thought who during the fight. Even losing a fight might not mean much... witness Nove's loss to Einhart, but ultimately succeeding in placing a tracking device, so she won by losing.

For all the tactics and intelligence used in StrikerS it was ultimately superior power what triumphed in the end. Nanoha defeated Vivio trough a deadly upgrade, Fate received a Nakama upgrade ...Signum won because Zest was dying (guess it's more or least an agreement that a top condition Zest would be able to beat most of the cast by himself). Vita perform a quasi shonen sacrifice in order to destroy the engine ...the only one who won trough tactics was Teana ...but well she hasn't that much of an option considering her situation so her tactical victory was indeed very impressive.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It was Fate and Arf vs. Vita, 2 on 1, so not exactly the circumstances you would want to point to.

Doesn't change the fact Fate managed to hold pretty good against a fairly stronger opponent with due to her speed and good tactics ...Signum recognized Fate's awesome skills as well (altough if that implication of the Wolks having just average skills were true then said remark would lose some of it's impact) but ultimatlely failed due to the Wolks possesing superior pwoer at the time, once Nanoha and Fate catched up in terms of power then their skill (or in Nanoha's case "her genius") started to become effective.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Partially true, but Hayate's iceberg would indicate otherwise. And we already know Nanoha and Fate are capable of launching kinetic attacks that are just assisted by magic. Remember, the new weapons are mainly prototypes being tested and adjusted, with plans to roll them out to regular mage forces. It would be harder for the power trio to fight without the new weapons, but not impossible.

I'll agree with you on the Heimdall having good chances to deal decent damage due to the reaction of the Hucks but that's a pretty contrived way to overcome the fatal weakness mages have ...Nanoha do have a spell to manipulate matter but is nowhere as powerfull as what Hayate did (i doubt Cypha will be scared by some accelerated rocks flying at her xDU). Fate on the other hand posses a pretty awesome spell that "might" work if it's execution doesn't follow the "linking" rule, i'm talking about her Thunder Fall spell she used on season one to call forth storm clouds and unleashed what appear to be natural thunders guided trough magic.

Two mages alone doing that won't be able to deal with the Huckebein, not to mention the time such magic takes to cast (Curren took great advantage of such flaw). The Power Trio could hold a fight with some of them and rise their chances to win if they gang three-on-one on each member separately. The Worf Duo have it even worst because they don't have any matter-manipulation spell (confirmed by the lameness of Fire-based MCA).

They did the right thing upgrading Bardiche and for some reason they haven't do the same to anyone else and instead they're trying to compensate their lack of power with specialized weaponry ...with mixed results.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Even though you're referring to the second fight, you do help prove my point if you think back to the first fight: Signum would have defeated Cypha, had she gone for a killing shot, instead of slicing off just the arm. If anything, it was Signum's concern for Thoma, and her "nicer" nature that netted her the loss.

The decision on when or if to maim or kill, is also part of tactics. In this case, being "good" ultimately backfired.

The moral of the story: heroism sucks, you must be a jerk in order to win.

[Justin_Brett]

Signum does seemingly decent against Cypha with her new toys until Cypha said "screw this" and promptly proceed to squash Signum's shield with raw strenght before leaving the place.

Yeah, that's not what happened.

You're still seriously trying to act like Cypha's anything but a chump so you can justify whining about Signum more? That's just sad.

[bhl88]

Shouldn't you say:
Signum cut Cypha's arm off.
Cypha went back to the base, regrew her arm and smiled like a boss.
Thus, Akiyoshi didn't feel that Signum won.

[Justin_Brett]

She also got pissed off for the first time in the story, and the one attack she got off didn't do anything.

But no, clearly Signum is now a weak little girl who doesn't learn from previous mistakes.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Yeah, that's not what happened.

The Gladiator shield didn't crumbled to pieces just by itself you know. You at least should admit that the ability to destroy a shield suppossedly made of a super strong alloy with your bare fingers is a quite impressive feat of strenght xD