Character Discussion - Suzaku

[orangejuicetang]

Come to think about it, when has a "victory or death" attitude ever been helpful to a losing country?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

If the CF and EU had joined in the conflict against Britannia, it is more than likely that they wouldn't have just stopped at Japan being the battleground. Because they would know that Britannia is highly advanced and is highly industrial and as long as their mainland is safe they can afford to build up more weapons and troops, so CF and EU would have decided that it would be better to hit Britannia at the heart than just keep on fighting endless battles in Japan.

And it wouldn't have been like the Spanish civil war because neither the CF and EU would be in Japan to test new weapons. They would be fighting the war to gain access to an extremely valuable resource which cannot be found as abundantly anywhere else as in Japan.

See this is the thing about "ifs" Anything is possible.

In this, I am following with Lelouch's statement where he stated that had Japan adopted a do-or-die resistance, Japan would've been divided up into 3 states still embroiled in war.

Simply put, during the hostage hijacking, the media noted that the balance of power was literally determined by how much Sakuradite was distributed around the world. So obviously whoever controls Japan literally has a major edge against everyone else.

Given the fact that it's North America that's the mainland, it is rather difficult to conduct such a massive invasion on such an isolated terrority.

Actually now that I think about it isn't that what happened between the French and the English? The English focused on sending troops over to North America while the French focused on their homefront and in the end what happened? The french lost Canada.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

However, what makes you assume that Britannia could also not keep on building up war materials and attack them at their mainland when they came to launch an attack on Britannia's mainland? What even makes you think that they would ally each other? If there are three countries with roughly equal power, the country that attacks and the country that is attacked will both lose due to the third power being able to pounce in and finish off the weakened victor. For example, if CF and EU made an alliance, and EU attacked Britannia's mainland, the CF would regardless stay out of the fight even with the alliance. After words, the CF would destroy either Britannia or EU, depending on which one was victorious.

Because the American continents have 2 very large oceans on both sides, it takes time to transport massive amounts of troops and weapons via sea and it takes so much resources to transport the same troops and weapons over air.

And the American continents have a lot of natural resources of their own to keep producing weapons.

and with the advanced technology the britannians have, for every knightmare frame they lose it would cost the EU and CF probably at least a dozen tanks or whatever armored units they have.

War isn't just about weapons and how many troops you have, it's also about logistics and supplylines.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

See this is the thing about "ifs" Anything is possible.

In this, I am following with Lelouch's statement where he stated that had Japan adopted a do-or-die resistance, Japan would've been divided up into 3 states still embroiled in war.

Simply put, during the hostage hijacking, the media noted that the balance of power was literally determined by how much Sakuradite was distributed around the world. So obviously whoever controls Japan literally has a major edge against everyone else.

Given the fact that it's North America that's the mainland, it is rather difficult to conduct such a massive invasion on such an isolated terrority.

But it would also be hard for them to keep sending troops over long distances to fight in Japan which is a lot closer to CF which could send troops faster and have a shorter supplyline. But sooner or later, both CF and EU are going to contemplate hitting the Britannian mainland while Britannia is occupied with trying to keep control of Japan and has much of their troops in Asia.

Would Britannia be able to keep fighting a prolonged war on both the Asian and European fronts while for the CF and EU each would have to concentrate on only 1 front as they unite to defeat a more dangerous enemy.

[orangejuicetang]

If you are looking at it from that point of view, than the EU has an even greater distance than Britannia when fighting in Japan. And anything that the CF and EU are contemplating, Britannia is also contemplating. For example, what makes you think that Britannia won't be the one who makes an alliance with CF to exterminate the EU and then split Japan in two with the CF?

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Come to think about it, when has a "victory or death" attitude ever been helpful to a losing country?

Pretty much never. Countries that adopt such a position (like Imperial Japan) get trapped in their own mindset, and are unable to see when they are completely out of their weight. Every success becomes a self-reinforcing cycle until it becomes too late. The same mentality that gave them a victory in the Russo-Japanese war led them to the invasion of China (hopeless) and war with the US, but each apparent success made the leadership more and more confident in themselves.

There's a pretty clear historical trend of what happens to resistances that try "victory or death": they die, and usually in great carload lots. In ancient times, they didn't even bother playing nice, which is why Carthage eventually got sown with salt. Europe controlled most the world by coopting local allies, and then killing the resisters. The Spanish empire held together until Spain itself was overrun and became a battlefield, the British Empire lasted until the country more or less couldn't pay the imperial bills, and the Soviet Union fell apart in a wave of Velvet Revolutions.

Modern resistance and insurgency movements have yet to remove an occupying nation out of a region on their own strength, even when armed by foreign powers. There have been two ways that an occupying power has left: because the leadership determined it too costly and chose to leave of their own violation, or because another army came in and won the field of battle. A wide-scale revolt? They uniformly get put down, and in modern times have yet to force an occupying nation out.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

If you are looking at it from that point of view, than the EU has an even greater distance than Britannia when fighting in Japan. And anything that the CF and EU are contemplating, Britannia is also contemplating. For example, what makes you think that Britannia won't be the one who makes an alliance with CF to exterminate the EU and then split Japan in two with the CF?

Hell, they just DID try to make an alliance between the two. Granted, it got summarily trounced upon by CF patriots and Zero's faction.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

If you are looking at it from that point of view, than the EU has an even greater distance than Britannia when fighting in Japan. And anything that the CF and EU are contemplating, Britannia is also contemplating. For example, what makes you think that Britannia won't be the one who makes an alliance with CF to exterminate the EU and then split Japan in two with the CF?

EU wouldn't have to fight in Japan, they are closer to Britannia than Japan, they would go attack the Britannian mainland first forcing Britannia to send troops to a second front and not just fully concentrate on Japan.

And CF Britannia alliance shown in Turn 10 and 11 isn't a military alliance, it is a turnover of land so that the eunuchs could become Britannian nobles.


And Japan wouldn't be or need to fight to the death, all they would need to do is hold out until the EU and CF went to war with Britannia (which was stated to be a strong possibility if Britannia hadn't conquered Japan that quickly after Suzaku murdered his father.)

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dynastya

But it would also be hard for them to keep sending troops over long distances to fight in Japan which is a lot closer to CF which could send troops faster and have a shorter supplyline. But sooner or later, both CF and EU are going to contemplate hitting the Britannian mainland while Britannia is occupied with trying to keep control of Japan and has much of their troops in Asia.

Would Britannia be able to keep fighting a prolonged war on both the Asian and European fronts while for the CF and EU each would have to concentrate on only 1 front as they unite to defeat a more dangerous enemy.

I'm confused didn't you just say that it takes a significant amount of resources to attack North America?

No offense but it would be a logistics nightmare to open such two large fronts. They would have to divert a large amount of their resources from the Japanese warfront to the Britannian warfront to even mount a large assault. Then you have to take into account about supplies on that front and you'd be fighting in the enemy's backyard and that's "IF" you can even make a beachhead.

[Dean_the_Young]

Except the minor details that Britannia has been cannonically portaryed as winning a war of conquest in the Middle East, North Africa, and soon Europe, had a clear global lead with the revolutionary Knightmares, and has been constantly beating Europe in Europe's own back yard, completely correct!

[orangejuicetang]

I'm sure that the Britannian mainland is much more heavily armed than the invasion force for Japan. I'm sure that Britannia kept enough soldiers at home to fend off any outside attack that the EU or CF might have attempted. No country would be stupid enough to send off their entire army. Knowing the way that Britannia works, the emperor probably went to some prince and said, "You have this much this many people, and this much money, lets see what you do with it" and the prince used that money to conquer Japan.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Except the minor details that Britannia has been cannonically portaryed as winning a war of conquest in the Middle East, North Africa, and soon Europe, had a clear global lead with the revolutionary Knightmares, and has been constantly beating Europe in Europe's own back yard, completely correct!

Yes because currently Britannia has only the EU front and only a small portion of the entire EU border to contend with. Britannia is not fighting wars in other fronts at the same time, and as we saw, most of the victories come from the use of Lancelot. The EU was holding it's ground until Suzaku was sent in.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I'm confused didn't you just say that it takes a significant amount of resources to attack North America?

No offense but it would be a logistics nightmare to open such two large fronts. They would have to divert a large amount of their resources from the Japanese warfront to the Britannian warfront to even mount a large assault. Then you have to take into account about supplies on that front and you'd be fighting in the enemy's backyard and that's "IF" you can even make a beachhead.

Read my later post, EU would attack Britannia which is closer than Japan.
Also the CF and EU combined would have a lot more population than Britannia, and if the CF and EU had capable leaders who could properly lay down a good defensive line they can sacrifice a little portion of their troops in Japan and send a tactical task force from both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans to attack Britannia. They could plan for the Britannia to have their troops too busy fighting in Japan to be able to react quickly enough to counter a tactical strike force sent to...ahh bomb Britannia.

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

I'm sure that the Britannian mainland is much more heavily armed than the invasion force for Japan. I'm sure that Britannia kept enough soldiers at home to fend off any outside attack that the EU or CF might have attempted. No country would be stupid enough to send off their entire army. Knowing the way that Britannia works, the emperor probably went to some prince and said, "You have this much this many people, and this much money, lets see what you do with it" and the prince used that money to conquer Japan.

Prolonged wars costs lives, resources and a nation's treasury. Even if Britannia kept enough forces to defend the mainland, if they start losing troops they would have to send fresh replacements. During both World Wars, all sides had been losing a large number of troops that newly arrived reinforcements were as young as 18 year olds fresh out of boot camp.

And as CF and EU combined has more population, Asia, Africa and Europe combined equals more than half of the land mass on the planet, and have more natural resources than both American continents, they would be able to fight a longer war together against Britannia than Britannia could against both of them.

[orangejuicetang]

Defensive wars are much easier to fight than offensive wars. The problem with your assumption is that you assume that Britannia had a majority of it's troops tied up with Japan. I personally think they might have only used about 3% of their full military power, and left the remaining 97% at home.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Defensive wars are much easier to fight than offensive wars. The problem with your assumption is that you assume that Britannia had a majority of it's troops tied up with Japan. I personally think they might have only used about 3% of their full military power, and left the remaining 97% at home.

Yeah they would only need 3% of their military power, if their total military power numbered in the tens of millions.

Even in real world figures, the number of soldiers in all the nations of the 2 American continents combined would not be more than a few million, some countries in the world have only a few thousand soldiers in their regular army.

here are some statistics:

1: Active military personnel by nation
http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_..._personnel.asp

2: total available man power listed by nation (this doesn't mean the number of soldiers or trained people, it means the number of people who are of an age to join the military if needed)
http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_...l_manpower.asp

3: personnel fit for military service (still this doesn't mean the number of soldiers or trained people, it just means people who are mentally and physically fit for service)
http://www.globalfirepower.com/list-...ry-service.asp

Also, if we went by real world standards, it's never profitable for any nation to maintain a very large active military during peacetime as it would use up more taxpayer's money and treasury to keep the soldiers trained, well equipped and paid.

So sending 3% of the active army while keeping 97% at home is not realistic, it would be a huge waste of manpower, resources and money for the Britannia government.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Britannia is not fighting wars in other fronts at the same time, and as we saw, most of the victories come from the use of Lancelot. The EU was holding it's ground until Suzaku was sent in.

Uhhhh no actually if Japan is Area 11 with Code Geass taking place 7 years after with Cornelia conquering Area 18 I highly doubt Suzaku did a lot for them.

Even if Britannia kept enough forces to defend the mainland, if they start losing troops they would have to send fresh replacements. During both World Wars, all sides had been losing a large number of troops that newly arrived reinforcements were as young as 18 year olds fresh out of boot camp.

I hate "ifs" but your assumption works only "IF" they successfully establish a beach head. I'm not sure how they would maintain those armies with supplies with the Britannian navy hounding on them. It would be suicidal.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Uhhhh no actually if Japan is Area 11 with Code Geass taking place 7 years after with Cornelia conquering Area 18 I highly doubt Suzaku did a lot for them.

did you even see the size of those frames in Area 18, which is only a tiny part of the EU itself.

Those middle eastern frames were slow, cumbersome and against an elite like Cornelia and her personal knights, they were nothing. And before Cornelia and her group joined in the battle, the middle eastern forces were about to defeat the Britannia forces.

But in R2 when Schneizel was fighting in El Amain, where the situation had been deadlocked for a long time because EU had a legendary military commander posted there, the EU frames were smaller and more efficient than the middle eastern ones, and were capable of using the advantage of terrain to hold out against Schneizel's forces until the Lancelot was sent.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Oh for crying out loud my point being as that in the 7 year interval Britannian had conquered 7 more areas.

[Dynastya]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Oh for crying out loud my point being as that in the 7 year interval Britannian had already conquered 7 more areas.

Most likely 1 area after another and not 7 areas at the same time. After all there were 7 years between the fall of Japan and the rise of Zero. And we don't even know what the other areas are, we're not even sure if they number the Areas in order or by some other numerical designation.

[orangejuicetang]

My point is regardless, there would be alot more forces stationed in Britannia than in Japan.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Those middle eastern frames were slow, cumbersome and against an elite like Cornelia and her personal knights, they were nothing. And before Cornelia and her group joined in the battle, the middle eastern forces were about to defeat the Britannia forces.

Really? All I remember was seeing a bunch of Frames attacking the britannian forces and then getting wiped out. You mind linking to where you got a whole lot more information?

But in R2 when Schneizel was fighting in El Amain, where the situation had been deadlocked for a long time because EU had a legendary military commander posted there, the EU frames were smaller and more efficient than the middle eastern ones, and were capable of using the advantage of terrain to hold out against Schneizel's forces until the Lancelot was sent.

Ok so you agree that Britannia was dominating in these battles...so why are you so confident that the EU and Chinese could even stage a successful invasion on a continent that's an ocean distance away?

If the Britannians are holding the line against their homefront how would they even be remotely be able to send an invasion force that wouldn't get pummeled by britannian navy and air froces without weakning their own postions?

Then you have the chinese who are surrounded by the britannians how in the world would they send an invasion force of sufficient size past Britannian forces to the mainland?