[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I don't think it should be forgotten that Jessica abandoned Battler when they were children, or that the ritual to ressurect Beatrice never would have succeeded without her help.

Mind explaining what you're talking about?

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Generally speaking I think that logic is dead wrong because it's likely exactly the opposite, Ryukishi's seemingly trying to make us have sympathy for the culprit (and thus likely understand that others might be people who deserves to be killed).

Er...no? He's not trying to say people deserve to be killed or that the culprit is somehow in the right. Really, so far, all he's made an effort to do is make us feel sympathy for Beatrice, while heavily implying she's actually innocent.

Originally Posted by Used Can

So, Battler was actually fucking Kinzo?

Dude, what did you think the "blue stakes" represented?

Though this leads to the conclusion that he also fucked Beatrice and Erika...

And that the Sisters of Purgatory are dickgirls...

And that's awwight.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Er...no? He's not trying to say people deserve to be killed or that the culprit is somehow in the right. Really, so far, all he's made an effort to do is make us feel sympathy for Beatrice, while heavily implying she's actually innocent.

Nonsense. I am uncertain if anyone deserve to be killed or not, but with the negative light so many characters are portrayed at various times it's a definite possibility (that either the culprit or Beatrice feels that way), but that we're only supposed to feel sympathy for Beatrice is just nonsense. The serie went out of it's way to show us how Ange ended up feeling sympathy for someone like Kasumi, so I don't know what you've been reading.

[AuraTwilight]

Okay, I worded that wrong. What I meant is that he tried to make us feel sorry for Beatrice, not the serial killer, necessarily. The statement had no bearing on entities such as Rosa, Kasumi, etcetera.

[Oblivion]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Dude, what did you think the "blue stakes" represented?

Though this leads to the conclusion that he also fucked Beatrice and Erika...

And that the Sisters of Purgatory are dickgirls...

And that's awwight.

Okay, what the fuck? Battler was fucking Kinzo? Along with Beatrice and Erika? You mean mindfucking right? That's kinda hard to believe and why would he be? I don't get it....

[UsagiTenpura]

Okay this is seriously exagerating, these boards aren't 4chan, and used to have some level of etiquette, seems like nearly everyone who talks like that joined october 2010, not too surprising I guess, but this is really just going too far.

[AuraTwilight]

Except Used Can has been here longer than you. You really need to quit it with your snide little attitude, it's more impolite than anything else I've seen so far. (By the way I've been lurking for nearly two years)

[Cao Ni Ma]

Look at my e-peen look at it! I swear its huge!

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Oblivion0101

Okay, what the fuck? Battler was fucking Kinzo? Along with Beatrice and Erika? You mean mindfucking right? That's kinda hard to believe and why would he be? I don't get it....

The joke was that dragon metaphors were used to sensor sex scenes in another visual Novel, adding unfortunate implications to the scene where Battler fought Dragon!Kinzo, and continuing from that, the stakes he fought with as Blue Truth....well, stakes + Pretty girls he fought in debates and hurt...stakes = Freudian.

And going by that, Stakes of Purgatory....

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The joke was that dragon metaphors were used to sensor sex scenes in another visual Novel, adding unfortunate implications to the scene where Battler fought Dragon!Kinzo, and continuing from that, the stakes he fought with as Blue Truth....well, stakes + Pretty girls he fought in debates and hurt...stakes = Freudian.

And going by that, Stakes of Purgatory....

Just became the best thing about the series.

Oh the implications of that in light of the Valentine's and White Day TIPS.

[Glass Heart]

Well, I only know the anime series and some complementary informations from the visual-novels, but I have a theory and I would like to know if it could contradict what you know from chapters 5 to 7.

Spoiler:

In truth, there wouldn't be one but two Beatrice. The meta-Beatrice that meta-Battler confronts and culprit X who pretends to be Beatrice.

Battler thinks that meta-Beatrice is an illusion created by the belief that everyone has now that the witch really exists and has murdered everyone, allowing her to exist.

My theory is that meta-Beatrice is the fruit of Maria's imagination. She strongly believes in Beatrice and knows the occult pretty well.
Maria strongly believes that the witch Beatrice committed the murders, is laughing at Battler (who doesn't believe at all in Beatrice) each time he is unable to explain how a murder was performed, and when Battler seems pretty confident that the witch has nothing to do with it, she seems offended.

Strangely, these reactions are exactly the same that meta-Beatrice displayed in front of meta-Battler.


During the first chapter, all the way, Maria explains each strange murder by the witch's intervention, ultimately causing everyone to believe her. She also says she has seen Beatrice herself.

I think that chapters 2 to 4 are the perception Maria has from the events of chapter 1, alimented by the belief in magic and Beatrice. A perception that keeps changing.
The more Maria comes to believe in Beatrice, the more magic manifests from one chapter to the other.

One huge hint (I think) is the way the magic manifests. The "bunnies" (I don't remember their names) seem to come from a child's mind and their sequences are VERY kitsch.

And Maria and meta-Beatrice have the same objective: to make Battler surrender to Beatrice and to the belief that witches are real.


But I don't think Maria is Beatrice in the real world. It is said that Maria didn't kill anyone (but not that she isn't related to the murders).
So there is really someone who kills the other residents on the island and who makes them believe the witch did it, using the legend and the riddle on the epitaph.

One of the 16 persons on the island is certainly culprit X and I think Maria recognizes this person as Beatrice, to the point of helping her (which would explain how the letter appeared and how the murders could have occurred in a locked room in chapter 1: she didn't kill anyone but she definitely helped the killer).

Meta-Beatrice really thinks she is the murderer because Maria thinks that the culprit is really Beatrice.
But, someway, the fact that she helped Beatrice could have created some doubts in her mind that she tries to avoid unconsciously because she really believes in the witch and deeply wants it to be that way.

I think that what Battler is really doing is uncovering the clues that Maria helped "Beatrice" (so that magic wasn't really involved and that Maria knows it despite the fact that she tried to convince everyone of Beatrice's existence), and that's what meta-Beatrice tries her best to hide despite the fact that she sincerely believes that she committed the murders (because Maria thinks that way).


One important element is the question of multiple identities. Someone was recognized as Kinzo (chapter 4) and someone was recognized as Beatrice (chapter 2) by the family members.

It is very likely that Maria herited from Kinzo her strong interest in the occult and her will to see the revival of Beatrice.

It may seem a little awkward but Maria could have been recognized as "Kinzo" (or, in fact, as the head of the family and heiress of Kinzo's will), when culprit X would be recognized as the real Beatrice.

In the end of chapter 4, "Kinzo" also recognizes Maria as his heiress, before being killed by Beatrice (culprit X). It could be a metaphor implying that Maria helped culprit X but was nonetheless murdered by him.

And Beatrice was destroyed by Battler shortly after Maria rejected her, thanks to Ange.


It doesn't tell anything about the killer's identity (even if I have my idea. I think the culprit has made a huge mistake in chapter 1, by painting a door... after the murder inside the room was discovered), but it could explain the strange metaphysical world opposing meta-Battler and meta-Beatrice.

What do you think of it ? Does it work with latter chapters ?

PS: Sorry if my english isn't that good, I really tried my best.

[AuraTwilight]

My theory is that meta-Beatrice is the fruit of Maria's imagination. She strongly believes in Beatrice and knows the occult pretty well.
Maria strongly believes that the witch Beatrice committed the murders, is laughing at Battler (who doesn't believe at all in Beatrice) each time he is unable to explain how a murder was performed, and when Battler seems pretty confident that the witch has nothing to do with it, she seems offended.

To avoid as many spoilers as possible, let me just say that Meta-Beatrice represents an individual that actually exists, and it has to do with Battler's sin.

And Maria and meta-Beatrice have the same objective: to make Battler surrender to Beatrice and to the belief that witches are real.

Beatrice's objective is actually different from that. As observable in EP4, she's actually playing to lose.

One important element is the question of multiple identities. Someone was recognized as Kinzo (chapter 4) and someone was recognized as Beatrice (chapter 2) by the family members.

It is very likely that Maria herited from Kinzo her strong interest in the occult and her will to see the revival of Beatrice.

It may seem a little awkward but Maria could have been recognized as "Kinzo" (or, in fact, as the heir of the family and heiress of Kinzo's will), when culprit X would be recognized as the real Beatrice.

In the end of chapter 4, "Kinzo" also recognizes Maria as his heiress, before being killed by Beatrice (culprit X). It could be a metaphor implying that Maria helped culprit X but was nonetheless murdered by him.

Er...Maria can't be "Kinzo" because she was with Battler and the other cousins the whole time. Who is the "Kinzo" who appeared before the adults, killed them, took them hostage, and administered the tests?

And Beatrice was destroyed by Battler shortly after Maria rejected her, thanks to Ange.

Beatrice wasn't destroyed, and Maria didn't reject her. Though I should probably tell you that in EP1 of the visual novel, Bernkastel describes Beatrice as "a personification of the rules of this world" and in EP5, adds on to this. Basically, while Maria contributes, she's only one factor; Beatrice represents the mystery itself, and as long as a part of the truth is hidden, she can exist. Have you ever heard of the "God of the Gaps" argument? Beatrice is basically this.

Other than that, this is all pretty good, and don't worry about your English, it's fantastic. I'd highly recommend skimming the Visual Novel's first four episodes to elaborate on the anime's very brief and uninformative version of things, and then move on to 5 and onwards.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Beatrice's objective is actually different from that. As observable in EP4, she's actually playing to lose.

This is one of the issues I have with Beatrice's character, if you could interpret her actions as protecting the culprit. Why is she playing to lose then? She can only lose to Battler and only if he finds the absolute truth of who the culprit is and how he/she commits the crimes.

You could argue that Beatrice wants Battler to hate her instead of the culprit but why make the game solvable then if it would eventually lead to the culprit. Or why engage in the game anyways, she could have left Battler ignorant in his death, ignorant is bliss as they say.

Maybe someone asked for the truth to be revealed and in so binds Beatrice's to do so.

[Renall]

It could be the "betting on a miracle" metaphor. Beatrice will not/cannot provide Battler with the truth and will in fact act to keep it from him, but the solvability remains as a method by which he could find the truth, on the one-in-a-million odds that he is actually able to do so.

Although read as a dialectic figure Meta-Beatrice is playing to lose because Battler's perception of Beatrice is a misinterpretation of facts which "she" (that is, the individual/idea/etc. she represents) wishes for him to overcome to attain the "true" picture. Hegel would have some things to say about ep6-7.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

This is one of the issues I have with Beatrice's character, if you could interpret her actions as protecting the culprit. Why is she playing to lose then? She can only lose to Battler and only if he finds the absolute truth of who the culprit is and how he/she commits the crimes.

You could argue that Beatrice wants Battler to hate her instead of the culprit but why make the game solvable then if it would eventually lead to the culprit. Or why engage in the game anyways, she could have left Battler ignorant in his death, ignorant is bliss as they say.

Maybe someone asked for the truth to be revealed and in so binds Beatrice's to do so.

As far as I understand it, Beatrice has two completely different goals that are being served by the same method.

1. She wants Battler to figure out her mystery.
2. She wants to keep what really happened under wraps forever.

The point is never for Battler to find out the truth of what happened on the island, the point is for Battler to discover her existence and understand her motivation. That's why the answer to her mystery isn't the same as "who killed the people on the island."

[Glass Heart]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

To avoid as many spoilers as possible, let me just say that Meta-Beatrice represents an individual that actually exists, and it has to do with Battler's sin.



Beatrice's objective is actually different from that. As observable in EP4, she's actually playing to lose.



Er...Maria can't be "Kinzo" because she was with Battler and the other cousins the whole time. Who is the "Kinzo" who appeared before the adults, killed them, took them hostage, and administered the tests?



Beatrice wasn't destroyed, and Maria didn't reject her. Though I should probably tell you that in EP1 of the visual novel, Bernkastel describes Beatrice as "a personification of the rules of this world" and in EP5, adds on to this. Basically, while Maria contributes, she's only one factor; Beatrice represents the mystery itself, and as long as a part of the truth is hidden, she can exist. Have you ever heard of the "God of the Gaps" argument? Beatrice is basically this.

Other than that, this is all pretty good, and don't worry about your English, it's fantastic. I'd highly recommend skimming the Visual Novel's first four episodes to elaborate on the anime's very brief and uninformative version of things, and then move on to 5 and onwards.

In spoiler, could you tell me what Battler's sin is, please ?

Spoiler:

In the end, she played to lose, I agree. But I don't think it was the case at the beginning. For some reason, she grew tired of the game after she discovered Battler has forgotten his "sin", like it was her reason to start the game to begin with.

It has been stated early in the series that the game is a torture and, at the end, the game has become a torture to Beatrice which would be the reason why she plays to lose at the very end. She became the slave of her own game, the slave of Bernkastel, an endless torture for the endless witch.


Well, it seems I still have some difficulties to understand fully Beatrice's character (I'll try to read what you advise me), but I really think meta-Beatrice and chapters 2 to 4 are linked to the perception of Maria (but maybe not only to that, as you said).


For my claim that Maria has rejected Beatrice, I thought of the end of chapter 4, with Ange performing a magic Beatrice is unable of (giving existence to a lifeless form).
I really understood this scene as Maria losing her faith in Beatrice and in some way rejecting her, leaving the so-promised Golden Land (which I understand as the key element of the whole Beatrice's mythology, like the lost paradise).

In fact, I thought the whole time that Beatrice's goal was to finally been able to exist fully. The question of existence is very present in the series: Beatrice (an idea), Shannon (a furniture) and Sakutaro (a lifeless form) all try to gain an existence they normally aren't allowed to (well, for Sakutaro, it's more Maria that tries to give an existence to him).

Anyway, thanks for your answers !

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by musouka

As far as I understand it, Beatrice has two completely different goals that are being served by the same method.

1. She wants Battler to figure out her mystery.
2. She wants to keep what really happened under wraps forever.

The point is never for Battler to find out the truth of what happened on the island, the point is for Battler to discover her existence and understand her motivation. That's why the answer to her mystery isn't the same as "who killed the people on the island."

Interesting, but could you reach the first statement without reaching the second one? Actually thinking about it this would make Beatrice the person seem a whole lot nicer. You could argue that the money in the envelopes that she sent was used to qualm whatever desires the adults would want and remove their reasons to commit a crime. But why use such a contrived method to send it?

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Interesting, but could you reach the first statement without reaching the second one?

Yes, that's the entire point. Let me put use this example. Someone wants to put on a murder mystery dinner theater and wrote out a complete script. Somehow, everyone that was at dinner died. Looking at the script of the dinner will only tell you what the author had in mind, it won't tell you what actually happened at dinner that night.

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Actually thinking about it this would make Beatrice the person seem a whole lot nicer. You could argue that the money in the envelopes that she sent was used to qualm whatever desires the adults would want and remove their reasons to commit a crime. But why use such a contrived method to send it?

This is one of the things that remains a mystery. Personally, I don't think anyone was actually supposed to literally die until the bomb went off. The money on the cards was used as bribes to make everyone go along with her fictional production. She was planning on doing the exact same thing Kinzo used to do when he couldn't make a difficult decision. She would set the bomb and have a twenty-four hour frame for everything to be decided. If the miracle didn't happen, then everything would blow up. If Battler "found" her, then she would fulfill the last part of the epitaph (since no one had actually died yet) and be free to live her life as a full person instead of "furniture" or a "witch".

[Jan-Poo]

If Beatrice really wanted to keep everything wrapped forever, she would have better not written any message in the bottles.

The Rokkenjima incident was pretty much closed until someone found the second message. The incident is still a "case closed" for the authorities in 1998. The only things that keep everyone's interest still alive after that much time are those damn messages.

The explosion worked quite efficiently at hiding forever whatever happened on that island, doing more could only worsen the situation. So in the end whoever wrote those messages is either and idiot or someone who doesn't want the world to accept the Rokkenjima incident as a simple incident.

[Renall]

Or is writing things which are intentionally not true (I think we can at least accept that none of the message bottles are the true account of the events, if nothing else) in order to convey a message to someone without being all that interested in "the truth."

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Glass Heart

In spoiler, could you tell me what Battler's sin is, please ?

Anyway, thanks for your answers !

Spoiler:

As far as I know there hasn't been any concrete proof as to what his sin was, personally I think its pride. Even on the 6th game where his in charge it gets everyone killed. Some say its forgetting a promise he maid to a character. EP8 isn't out yet, and if this follows the typical mystery fashion it should all be revealed when its out.