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Kakurin · 2013-06-12, 18:10

Part 7 Chapter 4

Spoiler for Part 7 Chapter 4:

Wilshere · 2013-06-12, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigUp

Part 7 Chapter 4

Spoiler for Part 7 Chapter 4:

Well here goes Kyousuke,shutting another door on another girl,one more door needs to be closed and closed for good. Good job mate as always,so Chapter 5 maybe tomorrow?

***relentlessflame*** · 2013-06-12, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayid

This novel is just like a laberynth full of hints for different interpetations. Or maybe it is because of the rough translations/summary's?

Well, the summaries and rough translations don't help, but the author is definitely a bit tricky with his words, and likes to leave insinuating comments that may not mean exactly what you think. That's why translations are tricky, because you have to try to avoid putting in too much personal spin/interpretation on what you think is being said, and to consider the double-meanings. Some of this is certainly being lost in these summaries.

Kakurin · 2013-06-12, 18:25

Once again, the quick translation of a quick translation rolled into one post. What I mentioned before still applies here, so take the content with a grain of salt while making judgements. (Funny sidenote: I noticed the more I progress through that translation, the less paraphrasing I do, just look at the number of lines, chapter 4 is aside from the missing page, an entire translation of the translation

)

Chapter 1: http://pastebin.com/CcM1xS3S
Chapter 2: http://pastebin.com/96vQaVSG
Chapter 3: http://pastebin.com/iT8fdppT
Chapter 4: http://pastebin.com/W8eGVyPH

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, the summaries and rough translations don't help, but the author is definitely a bit tricky with his words, and likes to leave insinuating comments that may not mean exactly what you think. That's why translations are tricky, because you have to try to avoid putting in too much personal spin/interpretation on what you think is being said, and to consider the double-meanings. Some of this is certainly being lost in these summaries.

Certainly, that's why it would be best to read works in their original language. Unfortunately my Japanese is at the very beginning.

tommythecat · 2013-06-12, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayid

Really this novel gives you a hard time lol. The writter really trows things in the story that make you think. WHAT THE HELL! did he just said but didn't............................

This novel is just like a labirynth full of hints for different interpetations. Or maybe it is because of the rough translations/summary's?

I'm pretty sure there is so many hints dropped about all sorts of possibilities because he wasn't sure what he wanted at the end. Even now I'm not sure I can call Kirino and Kyousuke lovers, but rather an amalgamation of familial love and something just beyond that. It's a whole lot of feelings that I'm sure they don't even fully understand.

DevG · 2013-06-12, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigUp

Once again, the quick translation of a quick translation rolled into one post. What I mentioned before still applies here, so take the content with a grain of salt while making judgements. (Funny sidenote: I noticed the more I progress through that translation, the less paraphrasing I do, just look at the number of lines, chapter 4 is aside from the missing page, an entire translation of the translation

)

Chapter 1: http://pastebin.com/CcM1xS3S
Chapter 2: http://pastebin.com/96vQaVSG
Chapter 3: http://pastebin.com/iT8fdppT
Chapter 4: http://pastebin.com/W8eGVyPH

Certainly, that's why it would be best to read works in their original language. Unfortunately my Japanese is at the very beginning.

Wow over 1k hits on chap 1! You sure got a hand for this, u should put a link to this thread so they can see who the thanks belong to

Kakurin · 2013-06-12, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevG

Wow over 1k hits on chap 1! You sure got a hand for this, u should put a link to this thread so they can see who the thanks belong to

Nah, not necessary, once the polished translation is out, some parts of this quick translation will look pretty bad, perhaps.

dragon1412 · 2013-06-12, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayid

That he has feelings for Kirino i dont have a doubt on that. His word's were clear when he confessed. Manami on the other part. That is something that i have a doubt about if she really was the one of tree years ago or not. Besides why would Manami distance the siblings from each other if they didnt have feelingsfor each other. Doesnt it make you think that Manami who was there close friend was suspicious of something? But first let us see the whole of volume 12 and the full translations. Let us then make the conclusion.

EDIT: Kyousuke doen't knows what he wants at the end? could you explain yourself here.

i thinks thats yopu are looking at the Manami matter too seriouly, at that time, Manami and kyousuke was still middle school students, and as a girl, she realized that Kirino is serious about her own brother and she also know that Kyousuke always try to show off before Kirino, thus leading her to act like that. Ironically, this is what lead to Kirino become Kyousuke love interest, cause siblings when grow up together realized others character, make them no longer a possible love interest, kind of like marrige couples cool down after a fews years together and in some cases, divorced, and adding the unconditional love that cause by closeness of siblings, it become Incest( this is true in RL as well) thus Manami action is actually what makes them serious about each other.

tommythecat · 2013-06-12, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayid

That he has feelings for Kirino i dont have a doubt on that. His word's were clear when he confessed. Manami on the other part. That is something that i have a doubt about if she really was the one of tree years ago or not. Besides why would Manami distance the siblings from each other if they didnt have feelingsfor each other. Doesnt it make you think that Manami who was there close friend was suspicious of something? But first let us see the whole of volume 12 and the full translations. Let us then make the conclusion.

EDIT: Kyousuke doesn't know what he wants at the end? could you explain yourself here.

Manami doesn't force distance necessarily because she thinks Kyousuke is in love with his sister, he just boosts about how awesome he is to Kirino and then for whatever reason Manami knows that she is infatuated with her older brother(which isn't all that strange at that age so Manami was actually kind of stupid to break them up) I forget where the conversation was but Manami wants her to stay away from Kyousuke because shes so impressed by how cool her brother is and she wants Kyousuke to settle down and act normal and not as a busy body attention getter so he has nothing to boost about to Kirino.

The reason I said they don't understand their feelings is because very likely they both have feelings of familial love and and eventually romantic, but because they were forced apart their feelings became twisted. Kyousuke starts out as learning to care for his little sister again and wanting to see her happy. Kirino rediscovers what she loved about Kyousuke before the break up between them, she wants to prove to herself that she can indeed love her brother and marry him because Manami said it can never happen.

Therefore their feelings and goals are not actually clear as to why they love each other and in what regard. I don't know the flow of the last novel yet but I take it Kyousuke knows about her plan to get married and all that at some point? He wants to make her happy and never see her cry again(throwback to the time when he was upset that when their grandmother died he couldn't do anything to comfort her.) Are their mutual wants and needs being fulfilled by going through the events of volume 12? Yes, from what I understand, so you can certainly say that Kyousuke is 100% in romantic love with Kirino, but I think that's a misinterpretation of the fact he also still loves her as family and the same goes for Kirino.

***relentlessflame*** · 2013-06-12, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayid

Besides why would Manami distance the siblings from each other if they didnt have feelingsfor each other. Doesnt it make you think that Manami who was there close friend was suspicious of something?

Well, this part is pretty clear; Manami knows Kirino's feelings from when Kirino went to confront Manami about what Kyousuke had become after the whole incident with Sakurai. Kirino has an over-inflated image of Kyousuke, and she's in love with that image of what he was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reunion lyrics, Verse 1

I've never been able to forget your sparkling silhouette
Racing through my distant memories
But just beyond your gaze, without realizing it,
My self-made image took over and clouded my vision

After Kyousuke's "fall from grace" she helps him realize that he isn't Superman and that he needs to come to terms with his own limits. But at this point in time, Kirino still idolizes him. So Manami tells Kirino that the brother she loves doesn't really exist (which is true!), and that she should reconcile with her "actual" brother (not the one in her imagination) as siblings.

The effect is that it caused the cold-war that caused the siblings to basically stop talking to each other, but that isn't what Manami intended exactly. Rather, she thought that if Kirino could understand that Kyousuke's just a normal/boring person, she'll stop idolizing him so much, and can have a normal relationship with him. It's not without self-interest, but at the same time it's not pure malice.

I don't think necessarily any of this really requires Kyousuke to be having any sort of romantic feelings for Kirino at the time. But if he kept on trying to impress her, in Manami's mind he was only going to keep hurting himself, and she didn't want that. She she "shatters two illusions" at once: Kyousuke's illusion that he's invincible, and Kirino's illusion that her brother is amazing. In her thinking, this is what was ultimately best for both of them... whether history judges her as right or wrong notwithstanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommythecat

Therefore their feelings and goals are not actually clear as to why they love each other and in what regard. I don't know the flow of the last novel yet but I take it Kyousuke knows about her plan to get married and all that at some point? He wants to make her happy and never see her cry again(throwback to the time when he was upset that when their grandmother died he couldn't do anything to comfort her.) Are their mutual wants and needs being fulfilled by going through the events of volume 12? Yes, from what I understand, so you can certainly say that Kyousuke is 100% in romantic love with Kirino, but I think that's a misinterpretation of the fact he also still loves her as family and the same goes for Kirino.

I would just submit that if all he wanted was to make Kirino happy and make have her dreams come true for a while and then move on, it would not have been necessary to so thoroughly burn the bridges with all the other girls in his life, particularly given that he recognizes that this chance will never come again in his lifetime. Kirino will always be his family no matter what, and he didn't have to take any steps to ensure that.

(And Kyousuke didn't know about Kirino's dreams/hopes when he proposed to her. He finds out after by listening to her recordings. In fact, he's worried at the time that she may reject him right then and there and he'll be left with nothing. So to assume that he knew what she wanted in advance and that's why he did it doesn't seem to be supported by the text. He risked everything to do what he wanted to do for himself.)

Sakuratsuki · 2013-06-12, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon1412

i thinks thats yopu are looking at the Manami matter too seriouly, at that time, Manami and kyousuke was still middle school students, and as a girl, she realized that Kirino is serious about her own brother and she also know that Kyousuke always try to show off before Kirino, thus leading her to act like that. Ironically, this is what lead to Kirino become Kyousuke love interest, cause siblings when grow up together realized others character, make them no longer a possible love interest, kind of like marrige couples cool down after a fews years together and in some cases, divorced, and adding the unconditional love that cause by closeness of siblings, it become Incest( this is true in RL as well) thus Manami action is actually what makes them serious about each other.

I understand. You have a good point there. In the real world, there are much cases of siblings engaging in an incest realtionship who were separeted by birth or didnt know that they had a sister.

tommythecat · 2013-06-12, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I would just submit that if all he wanted was to make Kirino happy and make have her dreams come true for a while and then move on, it would not have been necessary to so thoroughly burn the bridges with all the other girls in his life, particularly given that he recognizes that this chance will never come again in his lifetime. Kirino will always be his family no matter what, and he didn't have to take any steps to ensure that.

(And Kyousuke didn't know about Kirino's dreams/hopes when he proposed to her. He finds out after by listening to her recordings. In fact, he's worried at the time that she may reject him right then and there and he'll be left with nothing. So to assume that he knew what she wanted in advance and that's why he did it doesn't seem to be supported by the text. He risked everything to do what he wanted to do, even though he feared it wasn't what she wanted.)

Perhaps but he did know full well that she wanted to be the first and most important part of his life when she confronted Kuroneko after the breakup. The burning of the bridges could be for her benefit. I concede he romantically loves her but I think not every decision is stemming from that fact because he knows that she wants to be the center of his life so he will do the typically Kyousuke thing of taking it 5 steps too far and burning the bridges around him thoroughly so there is not a shred of doubt in her mind. Popping the question being the penultimate of proving that she is the most important person in his life.

As for the wedding thing, when did they discuss that it would end after their ceremony or is that just dropped on you and never explained further?

BladeEntity · 2013-06-12, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I would just submit that if all he wanted was to make Kirino happy and make have her dreams come true for a while and then move on, it would not have been necessary to so thoroughly burn the bridges with all the other girls in his life, particularly given that he recognizes that this chance will never come again in his lifetime. Kirino will always be his family no matter what, and he didn't have to take any steps to ensure that.

(And Kyousuke didn't know about Kirino's dreams/hopes when he proposed to her. He finds out after by listening to her recordings. In fact, he's worried at the time that she may reject him right then and there and he'll be left with nothing. So to assume that he knew what she wanted in advance and that's why he did it doesn't seem to be supported by the text. He risked everything to do what he wanted to do for himself.)

I personally was wondering the need for Kyousuke to burn every other bridge he could have, in the end I felt that it was in order to provide closure for how Kyousuke feels about Kirino by the end of the 2 years that the story timeline spans over. Within that time his conclusion is that Kirino is the most important to him, and from what we know of him when he sets his mind of something he does do things as super Kyousuke does.

In a way doing the final volume this way closes the story of Kirino and Kyousuke during this times as to where thier relationship may go from here and with the order girls, is still up in the air. And if Tsukaka Sensei felt like it he could definitely continue writing using this universe and characters he created, not that it will happen but whatever.

***relentlessflame*** · 2013-06-12, 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommythecat

Perhaps but he did know full well that she wanted to be the first and most important part of his life when she confronted Kuroneko after the breakup. I concede he romantically loves her but I think not every decision is stemming from that fact because he knows that she wants to be the center of his life so he will do the typically Kyousuke thing of taking it 5 steps too far and burning the bridges around thoroughly so there is not a shred of doubt in her mind. Popping the question being the penultimate of proving that she is the most important person in his life.

Yes. He sacrificed everything for Kirino. What more does he need to do before you believe his sincerity?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommythecat

As for the wedding thing, when did they discuss that it would end after their ceremony or is that just dropped on you and never explained further?

There were some hints earlier in the story (end of Volume 11) that whatever was going to happen between Kirino and Kyousuke would be limited to before she graduates, but this was believed to be related to her leaving. When she decided to stay, you might have gotten the impression that the time limit was off... but they never actually said this in the story until after the end of the end of the wedding (which was the pre-epilogue plot twist, that gets re-twisted again at the very end with the return of "life consultation").

Quote:

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

In a way doing the final volume this way closes the story of Kirino and Kyousuke during this times as to where thier relationship may go from here and with the order girls, is still up in the air. And if Tsukaka Sensei felt like it he could definitely continue writing using this universe and characters he created, not that it will happen but whatever.

He could continue writing more stories, but Kyousuke's romantic options with the other characters are quite dead. He would be the biggest jerk ever if he tried to rekindle a spark with any of them considering what he put them through. Even he considers his bridges thoroughly burned. Now, that doesn't mean he couldn't meet more people, but I think that would really devalue his actions in a major way. If there were more stories featuring the cast, I think they'd be side-stories. While this does put the cap on the story given the way it started, the re-started life consultations suggest that their story is beginning again. (See again, the very first line of "Reunion".)

tommythecat · 2013-06-12, 19:58

Why does my believing he has more than one motivation for his actions mean he isn't sincere?

BladeEntity · 2013-06-12, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

He could continue writing more stories, but Kyousuke's romantic options with the other characters are quite dead. He would be the biggest jerk ever if he tried to rekindle a spark with any of them considering what he put them through. Even he considers his bridges thoroughly burned. Now, that doesn't mean he couldn't meet more people, but I think that would really devalue his actions in a major way. If there were more stories featuring the cast, I think they'd be side-stories.

Such events would be out of Kyousuke's control, feelings seomtimes change. Considering he was saying just to Sakurai that the person he like 3 years ago was different. It's a small hint that nothing is set in stone assuming you take it at face value.

I would say the he compleely eradicated all chances, they are still friends and that friendship is important to both Kirino and Kyousuke so its still up in the air despite the improbable chances. People forgive, IMO the way Kuroneko was characterized, I wouldn't say the chance is completely gone, but for the closure of the relationship between Kirino and Kyousuke I would say the story has done what is needed in order to show thier feelings thier future is still up to Tsuaka to decide if he wants expand or write more.

I key is that Kyousuke thinks the bridges are burnt and we are not really show what the other parties are thinking. I trust Tsukaka to be able to write himself out of this situation though.

***relentlessflame*** · 2013-06-12, 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommythecat

Why does my believing he has more than one motivation for his actions mean he isn't sincere?

If not that, then why else did you bring it up in the first place? You said "you can certainly say that Kyousuke is 100% in romantic love with Kirino, but I think that's a misinterpretation of the fact he also still loves her as family and the same goes for Kirino". What does this mean if not questioning the sincerity of Kyousuke's actions and their meaning?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

I key is that Kyousuke thinks the bridges are burnt and we are not really show what the other parties are thinking. I trust Tsukaka to be able to write himself out of this situation though.

I guess I'll just respectfully disagree. It would completely undermine the ending, in my opinion.

tommythecat · 2013-06-12, 20:22

It means he loves her as family and romantically so he has more than one reason to do the things he does.

BladeEntity · 2013-06-12, 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I guess I'll just respectfully disagree. It would completely undermine the ending, in my opinion.

It's mostly wishful thinking but honestly I would find it interesting as to how he would continue it from where he left off if he on a whim decided to. While addressing what had occurred between the characters as a result of his decision and how everybody changes and grow leads me to belief it would be interesting writing.

***relentlessflame*** · 2013-06-12, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommythecat

It means he loves her as family and romantically so he has more than one reason to do the things he does.

Okay. So, are you suggesting that his decision to sacrifice all other romantic interests and propose to Kirino despite the many hurdles and risks was motivated primarily or even secondarily by his familial love for her?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

It's mostly wishful thinking but honestly I would find it interesting as to how he would continue it from where he left off if he on a whim decided to. While addressing what had occurred between the characters as a result of his decision and how everybody changes and grow leads me to belief it would be interesting writing.

Well, exploring what the characters do next could be interesting, depending on how it's handled. This is what I meant by side-stories; some epilogues featuring the various characters and what happened next in their lives could be neat. But, to me, anything that re-opens the question of who Kyousuke loves would be bad. That story is closed now, and in my opinion should stay closed.

2013-06-12, 18:10	Link #3201
Kakurin 大佐 Join Date: Jun 2013	Part 7 Chapter 4 Spoiler for Part 7 Chapter 4: - Dating Kirino, after a number of the days, the new year arrived. - Whether me and Kirino really did live a life of lovers while being siblings ---- before talking about that, let's me first tell another interlude. - -------------- Kurusu Kanako. - Is Kirino's classmate and also one of Kirino's friends. Her relationship with me is pretty good. She's a brat who aspires to become a star. - No.... now, I already can't call her a brat anymore. - She unexpectedly is a hardworking person, a person who is extraordinary serious, despite not looking like that on the outside ----- along the road I've seen those sides of her many, many times. - [I have a live at UDX, you ~ absolutely ~ must come! Alone!] - "Okay, okay, I'll come." - I had an agreement with her, to repay her for her care. - So, finally, I arrived at Akihabara's UDX. - Many memories have also accumulated at this spot. - Accepting Ayase's life-counseling, getting introduced to Kanako ..... this brat, back then she totally forgot about my appearance. When she greeted me first, she acted like a well-behaved person. - After that I came here many many times. Like a cosplay event, anime stage events like that. Closing my eyes, it seems like everythinkg happened yesterday. - And today also --- there's a Meruru stage event at UDX. - Among the cheers Kanako, who was completely billed with the [splitting image of Meruru] label, danced and sang on the stage by herself. - "........ just like always her singing and dancing is impeccable." - No matter how often I see it, I will always be impressed. Even though she is a shorty, and not of the type I like ------ - But if she in the future indeed becomes an idol, I am fan no.1! - [Everybody, thank you ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ♪] - After singing I don't know how many songs, Kanako waved heartily at the audience. - Woooooow! Kanakana-chan! The otakus were cheering. - Oho ~ really an impressive aura. - I also clapped impressed. - [That everybody came to hear Kanako sing, even though it's New Year, I'm really happy! Furthermore, today it's the worth remembering 10th live ~ ♪ .... The first time meeting everybody was also here. Those people who were there, do you remember?] - We remembeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer! - The audience once again roared with cheers. - "I also remember, it's really unbelievable." - Probably the next one is the last song. Then ---- after the live I'll go backstage and see her. - I originally intended to do just that, but then it was entirely overthrown by reality. - I honestly underestimated the sudden and direct character of Kanako. - [Hehe, then ~~~~~~~~~ ..... today, Kanako has an important announcement.] - Mhm? Kanako that girl, what's with her? - "Important announcement?" "What will it be?" "Is she recording a CD?". The otakus got noisy. - Next ----- - [You are here, right --- after all we agreed that you will repay me] - Suddenly her tone changed. - Oy, oy, you are at a live, won't it be a problem if you used your normal way of talking up there? - By the way, is it perhaps, directed at me? - Kanako sternly looked through the crowd, then apparently found me. - [Kyousuke!] - Without using the microphone, using all her strength she shouted. - "I like you! Go out with meeeeeeeeeee-------------!" - That kind of incredulous line. - "-----------------------" - The entire audience froze. - Sheesh ~~~~ it went all silent ---- then after a few seconds it suddenly got noisy. - ... that's ----- of course. Kanako..... Kanako..... Kanako.... - That.... idiot.....! - This is why you have no right to call me stupid! - That girl----- !! - [Hihaha! Looking at you! It seems that you can't run away anymore!] - Kanako elegantly swung the magical staff ---- then pointed directly at me. - [Quick, answer, right here!] - Kacha! - Like they were moved by the magical staff, the spotlights highlighted me. - Mhm....!? No kidding....! - The raving conference hall, thus returned to a silent state. - In order not to disturb, the answer to Kanako's confession. - Just like Moses parting the sea, a rift was created between me and those around me. - "..... Haha" - I couldn't resist a laugh. Talking about this, even if it is a real idol, could she do something like that? - Ah ~ damn.... honestly ----- indeed, if it's like that.... I can't run away. No matter how dense, how stupid a man is, he can't avoid, right here, right then, an answer. Using one swoop, she had forced me into this corner. - Heh... this impressive a confession, I haven't even seen it in an eroge! - "Kanako!" - I shouted my answer in an imposing voice - "I refuse! I can't go out with you! ---- because I already have, a girlfriend I love above everything else!" - ".................." - Kanako for a moment widened her eyes, then she fearlessly flashed me a smile, while revealing one of her canine teeth. - [Che----- I see. Then, honestly, congratulations.] - Kanako swung the magical staff back across her body. - Then ----- like it was coordinated, lively music started to play. - [Be prepared! I ~ absolutely ~ will become a very impressive idol, then you will regret it!] - Right after that overture had ended, the last song began. - [Hoshikuzu uicchi meruru! Hajji marru yoo ~~~~~~~~~~♪] - The title of the song was [Meteor☆Impact] Chapter 4 end __________________

2013-06-12, 19:58	Link #3215
tommythecat Contrarian S-class Join Date: Jun 2013	Why does my believing he has more than one motivation for his actions mean he isn't sincere?

2013-06-12, 20:22	Link #3218
tommythecat Contrarian S-class Join Date: Jun 2013	It means he loves her as family and romantically so he has more than one reason to do the things he does.