[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[k//eternal]

Can anyone provide translations of all the names of the characters? I know I've seen a list, but I was wondering if there were also multiple interpretations (including those for their Western pronunciations); the epitaph looks at least partly like it's referring to people's names and I was wondering if the blanks might be because we're focusing only on the kanji.

[nagare]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Can anyone provide translations of all the names of the characters? I know I've seen a list, but I was wondering if there were also multiple interpretations (including those for their Western pronunciations); the epitaph looks at least partly like it's referring to people's names and I was wondering if the blanks might be because we're focusing only on the kanji.

I'm not sure what you mean by (including those for their Western pronunciations) or what the other list is/had, but I'll give it a shot:

右代宮 - Right-wing Royal Court
右 - right
代 -
1) generation, era, reign (could be used as a numerical counter for this purpose)
2) Cost/Price
3) Proxy, in behalf of..., represent
宮 - imperial, palace. Could be used for religious (shinto) importance eg (shirne/temple, 宮司 which is priest). I beleive it is used this way as the Emperor is tied with the religion.


金蔵 - treasury
金 - gold, metal, money
蔵 - storehouse/warehouse, grannary, cellar
* This is not for temporay storage. Long term. Could be use to put an idea away for forever. Ex: Ryuukishi put the original EP 03 "Land of the Golden Witch" away in the cellar and never planning to release it. (I cross my fingers he'll change his mind and do it for the anime ><)

蔵臼 - granary mill-stone
蔵 - see Kinzo
臼 - mill-stone, a molar

夏妃 - summer princess
夏 - summer
妃 - usually princess. If read as きさき then queen

朱志香 - aspiring red fragrant
朱 - red, scarlet, blood(ly)
志 - will, motive, aspire, intent, aim/goal
香 - the smell of..., scent (usually sweet), aroma, fragrant
*Note: 香魚 is read as Ayu which may be helpful for the riddle. However, if you believe Hideyoshi, Eva, and Rosa this logic is shot down.

絵羽 - pictured wing
絵 - picture, sketch, painting, drawing
羽 - wing (bird, plane, or even blades of a propeller), feather, used as a verb - to flap/flutter, could have the meaning of 搏つ (pulse/beat or to hit away), numerical counter for birds

秀吉 - Superb luck
秀 - to excel, surpass, outstanding, preeminence, superlativeness
吉 - luck (good or bad, usually good), good/lucky/agreeable/pleasent/sufficient

譲治 - compromised fix
譲 - compromise, yield, hand or turn over, inherit
治 - fix, cure, heal, repair, to return to the normal state

留弗夫 - Dollar savings man
留 - to stop, go no further, to fix (as in fixed position), to settle, to stay, absence, neglect,
弗 - Dollar ($), symbol for fluorine
夫 - husband, boy/man

霧江 - misty bay
霧 - mist/fog
江 - inlet/bay

戦人 - Soldier
戦 - war, battle, fight
人 - person, human/man, numerical counter for people

縁寿 - bond for a lifetime
縁 - fate (as in bonding, soulmate kinda fate), relationship, bond, link, affinity, family line/ties
寿 - congratulate. Often this is use with words that have to do with life like 寿命 (life span) so it kinda has the meaning of life.

桜座 - cherry blossom's place
桜 - cherry blossom, pink
座 - seat, position

楼座 - Lookout position
楼 - tower, lookout, a very tall building, a belvedere
*depending on some uses it has the cogitation of impractical
ex: 蜃気楼 (mirage), there are idioms like 空中に楼閣を描く or 砂上の楼閣 which both mean impratical)
座 - seat, position



真里亞 - True oriental hometown
真 - just right, pure, true, genuine
里 - village, countryside, hometown, could also be a unit of measure (one ri somewhere around 4km/2.5 miles)
亞 - the orient, to succeed (as in following/replace/appointed)

That's what I can think of off top of my head. I may be off a little on some of those.

[Sterling01]

"GOGO GODA"
The true mastermind revealed... or not.

[chronotrig]

Except it's Rosa(楼座), not Oh-za(桜座)...

The 楼 means a tall building like a watchtower or something.

[k//eternal]

By the Western pronunciations I was referring to names like, say, Krauss, and the possibility that they have relevant meanings also.

Thanks for the list, though.

[nagare]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Except it's Rosa(楼座), not Oh-za(桜座)...

The 楼 means a tall building like a watchtower or something.

ah, that was embarrassing. ^^;
I was writing the names off memory. opps. I'll go fix that.

[Goose Boy]

One more ofmy Ep 3 which i havent read questions:

Spoiler for Question:

-Does the magical arrays sending happen again in this ep? ( from the second twilight upwards)

[Klashikari]

No, only the first twilight.

[Goose Boy]

This supports my theory that the culprit venerates Maria XD XD... With this I got something new:

Spoiler for Culprit:

There is a higher possibility that the culprit is male and/or Maria´s father... in a lesser possibility a female who has a fond for her.... if i said something wrong... my english is not perfect.....XD

[nagare]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

By the Western pronunciations I was referring to names like, say, Krauss, and the possibility that they have relevant meanings also.

Thanks for the list, though.

This is a interesting take. Never thought of that of analyzing the Romanize names beyond the witches and Kyrie which stood out too much. This is what I came up with...

Krauss is a German language surname meaning "curly"

Jessica - This name was first used in this form by Shakespeare in his play 'The Merchant of Venice' (1596), where it belongs to the daughter of Shylock. Shakespeare probably based it on the biblical name ISCAH which would have been spelled Jesca in his time. It was not commonly used as a given name until the middle of the 20th century.

Eva
1) Latinate form of EVE, and a variant Russian transcription of YEVA. This name appears in Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' (1852) belonging to the character Little Eva, whose real name is in fact Evangeline.

2) the Latinate counterpart of English Eve, derived from Hebrew name meaning "life" or "living one." It is the standard biblical form of Eve in many European languages.

George
From the Greek name Γεωργιος (Georgios) which was derived from the Greek word γεωργος (georgos) meaning "farmer, earthworker", itself derived from the elements γη (ge) "earth" and εργον (ergon) "work". Saint George was a 3rd-century Roman soldier from Palestine who was martyred during the persecutions of emperor Diocletian. Later legends describe his defeat of a dragon, with which he was often depicted in medieval art.

Rudolf
1) From the Germanic name Hrodwulf, which was derived from the elements hrod "fame" and wulf "wolf". It was borne by three kings of Burgundy, as well as several Habsburg rulers of the Holy Roman Empire and Austria. This name was used by Anthony Hope for the hero in his popular novel 'The Prisoner of Zenda' (1894).

2) Rudolph or Rudolf (French: Rodolphe, Italian and Spanish: Rodolfo) is a male first name, and, less commonly, a surname. It is a Germanic name deriving from 2 stems. One being "Rod" or "Hrôdh", meaning "fame", and "olf" meaning "wolf" (see also Hroðulf). Roughly the name's original meaning was "famous wolf".

Kyrie
Kýrie is from the Greek word κύριε (kyrie), the vocative case of κύριος (kyrios), meaning O Lord. It is the common name of an important prayer of Christian liturgy, also called Kýrie, eléison which is Greek for Lord, have mercy.

Ange (I could not find anything under Ange but Angie was close so...)
1) Feminine form of Angelus (see ANGEL). As an English name, it came into use in the 18th century.

2) Angela is a female given name. It is derived from the Greek word ángelos (αγγελος), meaning "messenger".

Rosa
1) Latinate form of ROSE. It was first used in the 19th century.

2) Means "dew" in Bulgarian.

3) Originally a Norman form of a Germanic name, which was composed of the elements hrod "fame" and heid "kind, sort, type". It was introduced to England by the Normans in the forms Roese or Rohese. From an early date it was associated with the word for the fragrant flower rose (derived from Latin rosa). When the name was revived in the 19th century, it was probably with the flower in mind.

Maria
1) Latin form of Greek Μαρια, from Hebrew מִרְיָם (see MARY). Maria is the usual form of the name in many European languages, as well as a secondary form in other langauges such as English (where the common spelling is Mary). In some countries, for example Germany, Poland and Italy, Maria is occasionally used as a masculine middle name.

2) Maria is a female given name in many diverse cultures, including African, Armenian, Bulgarian, Catalan, English, German, Greek, Italian, Maltese, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Russian, Romanian, Serbian Swedish, Spanish as well as in Pakistan and India.

It became popular with the spread of Christianity as a Latinized form of the Hebrew name of Jesus' mother Mary (Miriam in Hebrew). The meaning of the name is uncertain, but it may originally be an Egyptian name, probably derived from mry "beloved" or mr "love" ("eminent lady" or "beloved lady"), although it was used in Europe even before the establishment of Christianity as a female form of the Roman name Marius. Historically the name was also sometimes used as a male middle name. This was the case in many Central European countries where it signified patronage of the Virgin Mary.

Etymologically, the name could be derived from the Assyrian words Yamo Mariro (Yam, Mar = Maryam), which in Semitic languages, at least in Assyrian Aramaic, means sour ocean. Maryam is the Assyrian-Syriac, Hebrew, Arabic form of Maria.

Shannon
From the name of the Shannon River, the longest river in Ireland. It is composed of the Gaelic elements sean "old, wise" and abhann "river". As a given name, it first became common in America after the 1940s.

Kanon Spelled this way, I got random/inconsistent answers. Spelled with a 'C' you get...
1) a fundamental principle or general rule
2) any officially recognized set of sacred books
3) the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art
4) note-for-note imitation of one melodic line by another, in which the second line starts after the first.

Beatrice
1) Italian form of BEATRIX. Beatrice was Dante's guide through paradise in his epic poem 'The Divine Comedy' (1321). This was also the name of a character in Shakespeare's play 'Much Ado About Nothing' (1599).

2) Beatrijs (English: Beatrice), was a poem written in last quarter of 14th century (ca. 1374), possibly by Diederic van Assenede, and is an original Dutch poem about the legend of a nun who deserted her convent for the love of a man, who lives with him for seven years and has two children. When their money is low he deserts her, and she becomes a prostitute to support her children for another seven years. One day she is near her old convent so inquires discretely what has become of the nun Beatrijs, and learns that people think Beatrijs is still at the convent. One night a voice urges her to return to the convent, and when she returns, Beatrijs learns that Mary (mother of Jesus) has been acting in her role at the convent, and she can return without anyone knowing of her absence.

3) Beatrix is a Latin name for "blessed woman." The name originated from the Latin name Viatrix, and was merged with the Latin word Beata (from beatus, blessed). The Italian form Beatrice is derived from it.

Virgilia
1) Virgilia is the wife of Coriolanus in William Shakespeare's play Coriolanus (1607–1610), in which same play Volumnia is his mother. With respect to the legendary figure Gaius Marcius Coriolanus, some accounts (Brewer 1898) say that his wife's name was actually Volumnia, probably following the Roman historian Livy. However, in the very influential account of his life, and one familiar to Shakespeare, namely, Plutarch's Lives of the Noble Greeks and Romans, the wife's name is Virgilia, or in John Dryden's translation, Vergilia. Virgilia is described by John Ruskin as "perhaps loveliest" of Shakespeare's female characters.

2) (Note: this is from Virgil)
From the Roman family name Vergilius which is of unknown meaning. This name was borne by the 1st-century BC Roman poet Publius Vergilius Maro, commonly called Virgil, who was the writer of the 'Aeneid'. Due to him, Virgil has been in use as a given name in the English-speaking world since the 19th century.

3) Rias pointed out that Virgil is the name of the guide in The Divine Comedy

Bernkastel
Go to the Higruashi forum

[crazysjd89]

About the first twilight, this is something I just thought of:

There is a way that a victim of a closed room can cause the closed room themselves. If they got attacked, but didn't die, they might have jumped into a room and locked the door to protect themselves from the culprit.

This could also be linked to what was meant by "accident", as opposed to accidently dying in a room.

And furthermore, if we assume this, it means that one of the servants didn't die in an accident like Battler said, and what Beatrice was about to say in red before Ronove was going to stop her might have been "Those six aren't the killers" or "The killer is actually (name)", which would have been denyign herself or cornering her.

The person who would of had to have done this would either have to be the last person in the chain or all six of them, but it's still more belivable than "The killer accidently died in the room he locked himself in"

[nagare]

Originally Posted by crazysjd89

About the first twilight, this is something I just thought of:

There is a way that a victim of a closed room can cause the closed room themselves. If they got attacked, but didn't die, they might have jumped into a room and locked the door to protect themselves from the culprit.

This could also be linked to what was meant by "accident", as opposed to accidently dying in a room.

And furthermore, if we assume this, it means that one of the servants didn't die in an accident like Battler said, and what Beatrice was about to say in red before Ronove was going to stop her might have been "Those six aren't the killers" or "The killer is actually (name)", which would have been denyign herself or cornering her.

The person who would of had to have done this would either have to be the last person in the chain or all six of them, but it's still more belivable than "The killer accidently died in the room he locked himself in"

Battler/Virgilia brought that angle. If you believe in Beatrice's red text then no.

[crazysjd89]

Did they? Ah, I have a bad habit of forgetting things, so I'll have to look again, but I can only recall Beatrice saying in red that it wasn't suicide.

EDIT: OH right, I forgot the whole instantaneous death thing.

Sucks for me. An even more improbable theory is that someone came out them with a weapon, and before that person was attacked, they saw the killer, tried to close the door, but before it was completly closed, they were stabbed, then died, but ended up falling back, closing the door and their finger slipped on the lock. This theory is already improbable enough, but it doesn't work if the locks aren't the flip locks.

[Goose Boy]

Did beatrice ever said that the burning body was DEFINETELY kinzo?

[k//eternal]

First, I don't really know Japanese, so I could be missing something obvious. But if we take the names and apply them...


懐かしき、故郷を貫く鮎の川。
My beloved hometown, the bountiful river running through it.

The obvious person who comes to mind is Maria, I suppose. Jessica and Shannon are alternatives, the former being a bit of a stretch (just because of the name origin and, well, you know how Venice is).

IIRC someone mentioned that Kumasawa is a river too, correct? She seems less likely in this context, though.


黄金郷を目指す者よ、これを下りて鍵を探せ。
You who seek the Golden Land, follow down its path and seek the key.
川を下れば、やがて里あり。
If you follow the river, you will find a village.

Probably "the river" is Kumasawa or Shannon. Maybe one of them knows something about the riddle and acts as a guide?


その里にて二人が口にし岸を探れ。
In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of.

If we view a bond as a pairwise relation, then Ange could be "the two". Her relation to Kyrie ("bay") makes this interpretation consistent, but has Ange been here before?


そこに黄金郷への鍵が眠る。
There sleeps the key to the Golden Land.
鍵を手にせし者は、以下に従いて黄金郷へ旅立つべし。
He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below.

If Kanon (as "canon") is a series of rules, then this points to him as the next guide.


第一の晩に、鍵の選びし六人を生贄に捧げよ。
At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key.
第二の晩に、残されし者は寄り添う二人を引き裂け。
At the second twilight, the surviving shall tear apart the two who are close.

Eva is probably "the surviving". We've seen how she doesn't approve of the relationship between George and Shannon, so maybe it's that? Or does she kill Ange?


第三の晩に、残されし者は誉れ高き我が名を讃えよ。
At the third twilight, the surviving shall praise my honorable name on high.

Something about Eva and Kanon.


Beyond that, I don't really know. Maybe it's a dead end, but I'm convinced the characters have effectively two names for a reason, and the riddle seems like the place for it to come into play.

It's probably old news to all that the "Praise my name" in the first ep points straight to Kanon, but that got me thinking about the names.

EDIT: Another thought while I'm brainstorming, is it really necessary that the solution is exclusively anti-mystery or anti-fantasy? Because the entire setup even of the time loop is steeped in magic, and it seems conceivable to me that (like in Higurashi, I guess) the magic exists but isn't responsible for the events that occur. The concept that someone's telling a lie (or that other people are imagining what happened when they didn't witness an event) whenever the witch is "seen" is probably the case in some instances, but there are points where whoever saw the witch doesn't seem to have anything to gain from lying.

If Beatrice exists but isn't the villain, then the goal isn't so much to deny that she exists as to deny that she's the culprit (or in another sense, to show that she's actually distinct from Meta-Beato). The two Beatos seen in Ep. 2 seem to hint at this possibility, because I'm convinced that exactly one of them is real and may actually have some magical abilities (but minor ones, like fixing candy).

[Goose Boy]

mmm.... I think that the survivor could be kinzo... because he survived the earthquake..

[nagare]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

First, I don't really know Japanese, so I could be missing something obvious. But if we take the names and apply them...

Very interesting take on the riddle. I was only looking more at the letters rather than the meaning of the romanize names, mostly because there is a good number of names that don't have meaning romanized but those are non-family members who were not named by Kinzo. Good thinking.

懐かしき、故郷を貫く鮎の川。
My beloved hometown, the bountiful river running through it.

I guess I'll break down the 鮎 kanji as well.
Ayu is written as 魚 (Fish) and 占う (to fortune tell) as it was use for this purpose. This logic is shot down by Eva if you believe her. Eva, Rosa, and Hideyoshi believes that the fact that Ayu go from fresh water to the ocean and back is more important. Eva stresses going to the ocean in her break down.

I guess I should also say that 郷 could have the same meaning and reading as Maria's 里

The obvious person who comes to mind is Maria, I suppose. Jessica and Shannon are alternatives, the former being a bit of a stretch (just because of the name origin and, well, you know how Venice is).

IIRC someone mentioned that Kumasawa is a river too, correct? She seems less likely in this context, though.

Yes, 沢 (sawa) is a stream - usually mountain stream. I guess I should break down the other people's names when I get the time. I was only thinking of the family members previously. I'll probably go edit the previous post tomorrow with an update.

黄金郷を目指す者よ、これを下りて鍵を探せ。
You who seek the Golden Land, follow down its path and seek the key.
川を下れば、やがて里あり。
If you follow the river, you will find a village.

Probably "the river" is Kumasawa or Shannon. Maybe one of them knows something about the riddle and acts as a guide?

If guide is correct, then Kumasawa is more suspicious b/c of her connection with Virgilia, but Eva and Rosa(?) were able to solve the riddle without either being alive - assuming they really solved the riddle after the murders happened as we are led to believe. But then Kumasawa names herself as Virgilia (who even says she is a guide) after she is killed before Battler in the Meta World.

その里にて二人が口にし岸を探れ。
In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of.

If we view a bond as a pairwise relation, then Ange could be "the two". Her relation to Kyrie ("bay") makes this interpretation consistent, but has Ange been here before?

It is hinted that she has in the previous years.

そこに黄金郷への鍵が眠る。
There sleeps the key to the Golden Land.
鍵を手にせし者は、以下に従いて黄金郷へ旅立つべし。
He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below.

If Kanon (as "canon") is a series of rules, then this points to him as the next guide.

Interesting.
It could be Kanon more in the musical sense as well.
The way the riddle is worded, it repeats characters/sentence structures over and over, escalating each time.

Beyond that, I don't really know. Maybe it's a dead end, but I'm convinced the characters have effectively two names for a reason, and the riddle seems like the place for it to come into play.

I strongly believe this as well.

EDIT: Another thought while I'm brainstorming, is it really necessary that the solution is exclusively anti-mystery or anti-fantasy?

Not at all. I also strongly believe the riddle is completely unrelated to the murders.

If Beatrice exists but isn't the villain, then the goal isn't so much to deny that she exists as to deny that she's the culprit

That is also the same conclusion I've came to. Battler wins if he proves the murders are humanly possibly. Beatrice wins if Battler is willing to believe in magic - there is no contradiction there. Beatrice (and others) repetitively says love=magic. Even in this "game" that Beatrice created, she allows for multiple winners at the end.

I see the game ending where Battler or someone preventing the murders by quickly identifying the culprit and the family accepting Kinzo's "magic" by recognizing Beatrice in one form or another. Or possibly the murders is stopped because of this "magic."

[Bern-chan]

I have yet to play episode 3, but I've played 1 and 2. Anyway, I saw a video on youtube and it showed Kumasawa surrounded by some purple stuff. I was just wondering what that was, spoilers are welcome.

[johnishida]

Originally Posted by Bern-chan

I have yet to play episode 3, but I've played 1 and 2. Anyway, I saw a video on youtube and it showed Kumasawa surrounded by some purple stuff. I was just wondering what that was, spoilers are welcome.

Spoiler for About Kumazawa (Heavy Spoilers):

It's a magical barrier. The Stakes attacked her but, she used that barrier to protect herself. Later you find out, Virgilia (The First Beatrice), was sealed inside Kumawaza.

[Turtleen]

On this epitaph and names idea, I've been thinking along those lines for a while now, so I'll contribute. I've been thinking more along the lines of the servants rather than family members.

懐かしき、故郷を貫く鮎の川。
My beloved hometown, the bountiful river running through it.

I was thinking 'hometown' was Genji because his name begins with the kanji for 'hometown'.
Based on the constant talk of women's wombs and 'mountain stream' ending her name, Kumasawa seems to fit 'the bountiful river'.

黄金郷を目指す者よ、これを下りて鍵を探せ。
You who seek the Golden Land, follow down its path and seek the key.
川を下れば、やがて里あり。
If you follow the river, you will find a village

The village could be Rokkenjima itself, since Eva seems to be able to reach it while trapped on Rokkenjima. That's about all I have to go for on that...
Is there another reading of 里? 下 is 'under', I don't see that really changing the sentance much if it were taken more literally though.

その里にて二人が口にし岸を探れ。
In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of.

Possibly Shannon and Kanon. They seem to be a natural pair to me.

そこに黄金郷への鍵が眠る。
There sleeps the key to the Golden Land.

So obviously the key and 'shore the two will tell you of' is left. I think the shore would involve the witch's portrait or a place to find Beatrice.
Then the key, assuming the last sentance involved Shannon and Kanon, could be "the single element" - love. Shannon and Kanon were both given hearts and Kinzo was trying to find out what the single element is, according to Beatrice, so it would make sense that the thing he's been working on for years would be brought up in the riddle. The list of miracles that await those who reach the Golden Land has "the lost love" in it.
I had something else to back that up, but I can't remember it now xD

If Beatrice exists but isn't the villain, then the goal isn't so much to deny that she exists as to deny that she's the culprit

That's what I've also been thinking, I believe Beatrice exists, but either she isn't the culprit or the point is just to be able to prove a human could also do it whether she is or isn't the culprit.