[SE Change] When Kira Joins ZAFT...

[Faroush]

I always thought people in purple should be Kira's counterpart in ranking in Orb.

I mean, people wearing purple is always seen with the chairman or they're the one handling the military like what Kira is supposedly doing in Orb. apparently he only chosen to use that power once, compared to athrun's frequency in usage of his so-called FAITH "special" powers.

anyway, white coats gets to have a ship and have a team of their own. in any, Kira would probally have the Gondwana or ressurect something like the Messiah(though it's classfied as a fortress)

[SNT1]

so, what does the slight difference of Yzak and Talia's uniforms signify anyway?

[Last_Hope]

I don´t see Kira joining ZAFT at all at the moment.

Maybe this is opening up for the possibility of one of the few scenarios I would have liked to see after Kira got shot down by Shinn:

Kira disappearing and infiltrating ZAFT. Even though I absolutely loved the homage to my beloved X-105 Strike I wouldn´t mind seeing Kira being one of the pilots attacking the Eternal.

From the looks of it it looks like Kira has the same garb as Yzak.

//
Atleast the forum got a little more active again. Even though there´s a lot of baseless complaining going around. Which forced me to add another person to my ignore list. Now they´re two.

[Renegade334]

I think Kira is actually on par hierarchically with Yzak and actually higher seated than Talia. Yzak's uniform has actually more gold than Talia's (collar and cuffs) and the breast patch offer a different pattern. Maybe it has something to do with whether you are a MS squadron or a fleet commander or just a ship's captain?

IMO Kira should logically have the same garb as Yzak seeing that they have comparable roles and responsibilities in the last part of Destiny (commanding a ship/fleet, etc).

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by SNT1

so, what does the slight difference of Yzak and Talia's uniforms signify anyway?

As it stands, it seems that having extra yellow linings means that the commander also serves as a MS pilot rather than just a ship commander. Yzak and Raww had those uniforms, while Talia and the Operation Shoot Down Eternal commander wore the same uniform. I highly doubt that fat old man is a MS pilot.

Though the frontal yellow/red badge at the pocket area is beyond me. Talia is different, but all other commanders seem to have the same Yzak/Raww red/yellow/red pattern.

Knowing Kira, I wouldn't be surprised if he could hack ZAFT's database and create a false white-coat identity for a short while, but I don't see how that would contribute to the story at it's particular point. It's not like he can infiltrate Minerva either. And even if Kira pilots some ZAKU or GOUF, him losing in those MS is more degrading than him losing in Strike.

[Last_Hope]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

And even if Kira pilots some ZAKU or GOUF, him losing in those MS is more degrading than him losing in Strike.

Maybe I´m a little too biased but I can´t say I think Kira lost in the Strike against the ZAKU´s. He lost most of Strike´s body parts due to him taking a hit for the Eternal and then when he was about to dock he lost the lower parts. A stray/lucky shot at a static target.

And it´s not like the exact same scenario have to happen if Kira were to infiltrate ZAFT.


I just hope they have a good reason for this. I would hate it if he just were to feel like he wants to join ZAFT. He´s an Orb citizen and his sister is in a high-ranking position of Orb after all.

[Renegade334]

Well, maybe it's just an honorary position unless he were to take command of the ZAFT-originated Terminal fleet or he acts as Lacus' head of personal security when she comes back to PLANT to assist in the rebuilding efforts. Other than that the most plausible occasion for him to pop in in that attire would be at the very end, when we see Lacus walking up to the council room in councilwoman's garb, accompanied by Yzak and someone else. Maybe Yzak's gonna get replaced by Kira in that scene, who knows.

If Kira gets a ZAFTy's clothes before then I should expect some major changes, which leave me so-so but also expectant if it means remodeled scenes and better animation/plot (havent't watched SE yet, so...). Nevertheless if it is the case I wonder if it won't shoot, later on, Cagalli's giving Kira an entire fleet to command. After all only an Orb officer should take command of that Izumo fleet...even for the sake of hierarchy and decorum.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by srb

Neither of these were "rag-tag fighters". The Romans used assimilation and superior tactics as their tools, instead of acts of individual heroism, and the Mongols were supreme horsemen and warriors and used the enemy's acts of bravery against them by leading them into staged ambushes.

And should Kira really be a whitecoat?

You are half right. However, both both 'civilizations' started out as 'rag-tagged' and primitive. Romans were just tribespeople, and were considered by the Greeks as mere barbarians during Alexander's time. The Mongol situation was far worse, with Genghis used to consume rat meat while trying to support an entire household with nothing more than rags on their backs (and in total poverty). For a while, they were anything but 'great'.

As for Kira being a whitecoat. I really don't think its that hard to comprehend. Why not?

Lacus returned to PLANT in Final Plus. I don't know what she is up to, but chances are, she is going to be someone important. When she walked down the isle, she donned an official dress, which tells me she is going to be involved with PLANT politics in some way. With that said, Kira, being her one and only bodyguard, would have to dress in ZAFT uniform in order to appear legitimate. Think of the implications had he worn something else, namely a Feddie uniform.

Besides, many people already pointed out, if Athrun is so readily forgivable, then I don't see why Kira wouldn't receive the same treatment. After all, the man is a legend.

- Tak

[McChar]

What is this F+ stuff? 2nd time I've heard it, also in context with Lacus being the devil.

Also, I thought ZAFT ranks were way different than normal, it's not like they should have given him a purple uniform but white might still correspond with an Orb general rank (was that kira's rank?)

Plus do the white uniforms mean ship commander? I know that sometimes, like with Minerva and with some of the GSD ships, the white uniforms gave most of the ship orders, but Yzak and Rau seemed to delegate a lot of ship command to the black uniforms. I'm confused

Kira also happens to be the Ultimate Coordinator... It'd be kind of weird if ZAFT DIDNT want him in their uniform... even if it only meant that he becomes less likely to beamspam ZAFT grunts. And that green belt buckle has to mean something.

[srb]

Originally Posted by Tak

You are half right. However, both both 'civilizations' started out as 'rag-tagged' and primitive. Romans were just tribespeople, and were considered by the Greeks as mere barbarians during Alexander's time.

The Greeks considered everyone to be mere barbarians. You shouldn't discredit the cultural and societal advances of the Roman and Etruscan societies circa 700-300 BC in a manner such as this

The Mongol situation was far worse, with Genghis used to consume rat meat while trying to support an entire household with nothing more than rags on their backs (and in total poverty). For a while, they were anything but 'great'.

Their material wealth had nothing to do with their prowess as warriors, and when they steamrolled across Eurasia they were well-equipped, with several chargers for every warrior, chain mail armor and long charging spears.

As for Kira being a whitecoat. I really don't think its that hard to comprehend. Why not?

Because it's stupid to put him in a position of leadership. While he may be able to inspire others and can think on his feet and give advice to others. He's not a leader, he is a follower. He should be under the direct command of someone else who is more qualified to lead. Disobeying orders isn't anything new for Kira and I doubt that he'd care, so that's a win-win situation, but him actually commanding others isn't.

As for the ZAFT rank structure: There aren't any official "ranks" due to them being a militia, but there's always someone in command. All who wears a green uniform is of the same rank as anyone else with a green uniform, and it's the same with the white, black and reds. For example, a greenie who's in charge of engineering on a ship can command the other greenies under his command, but he doesn't have to take orders from anyone with a red uniform - only the captain and the executive officer or anyone in another directly superior command positions.

The purple coats seems to belong to people associated with the department of defense.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by McChar

Also, I thought ZAFT ranks were way different than normal, it's not like they should have given him a purple uniform but white might still correspond with an Orb general rank (was that kira's rank?)

Don't know what his rank is in ZAFT yet, but probably more than FAITH and less than Chairman

Originally Posted by McChar

Plus do the white uniforms mean ship commander? I know that sometimes, like with Minerva and with some of the GSD ships, the white uniforms gave most of the ship orders, but Yzak and Rau seemed to delegate a lot of ship command to the black uniforms. I'm confused

Black uniforms may be designated for captains, but white uniforms are admirals, or commanders of multiple ships, tactical operations that involves multiple ships and/or MS squadrons.

Originally Posted by McChar

Kira also happens to be the Ultimate Coordinator... It'd be kind of weird if ZAFT DIDNT want him in their uniform... even if it only meant that he becomes less likely to beamspam ZAFT grunts. And that green belt buckle has to mean something.

ZAFT wanted him to join. Hell, Athrun persuaded him to join ZAFT for at least 1/3 of Gundam SEED. But it took Lacus less than a few days to convince Kira to join ZAFT, if only for a couple minutes .

Now that he is a legend, well... makes him all the more desirable.

- Tak

[Tak]

Originally Posted by srb

The Greeks considered everyone to be mere barbarians. You shouldn't discredit the cultural and societal advances of the Roman and Etruscan societies circa 700-300 BC in a manner such as this

Their material wealth had nothing to do with their prowess as warriors, and when they steamrolled across Eurasia they were well-equipped, with several chargers for every warrior, chain mail armor and long charging spears.

And I've already stated that they 'started out' as piss poor, poverty-stricken, primitive barbarians. Their later glory was achieved only by the accumulated hard works of their leaders and peoples. None of the two 'civilizations' stated above started out with glory and fame. They both had a humble start, with Genghis being the humbler example of the two.

Before Genghis, Mongolia was a mess. It was only after him that the Mongol 'chargers' were able to steamroll Eurasia.

And even with the Greeks degrading their neighbors as mere barbarians, they had 'ranks' in that category, and the Romans sure didn't rank very high. It was only after several hundred years did the situation reverse, eventually with Greeks kissing Roman butt.

- Tak (Yes, I realize we are getting a little OT, I shall use private msg from now on)

[Renegade334]

Kira also happens to be the Ultimate Coordinator... It'd be kind of weird if ZAFT DIDNT want him in their uniform... even if it only meant that he becomes less likely to beamspam ZAFT grunts. And that green belt buckle has to mean something.

I beg to differ - very few people know about him being the Ultimate Coordinator. Durandal and Rey know because they're involved with Ulen Hibiki's program and his Da Fllaga cloning research. ZAFT only remembers Kira Yamato as a Coordinator that fought against his own kin - the Mendel matter was kept under wraps for perfectly understandable reasons, topping the fact that Kira wouldn't presumably either brag or advertise the fact that he is an Ultimate Coordinator. After all, it's a touchy topic for him. When Durandal mentioned him in front of Shinn (when he gave Destiny and Legend to Athrun and Shinn), I guess he was referring to his piloting skills. It's only when Rey told his tale as a clone with shortened lifespan to Shinn that he might have put two and two together and understood why Kira was so special. And it's unlikely he went yapping around about Rey's (a friend) confidences.

Because it's stupid to put him in a position of leadership. While he may be able to inspire others and can think on his feet and give advice to others. He's not a leader, he is a follower. He should be under the direct command of someone else who is more qualified to lead. Disobeying orders isn't anything new for Kira and I doubt that he'd care, so that's a win-win situation, but him actually commanding others isn't.

In GSD he does start to show signs of standing up for the role as commander in the last arc, although Lacus is the source of command behind due to her political background and her being the daughter of a PLANT councilmember. I wouldn't say he is just a follower but he simply lacks the experience to deserve the role of a squad/fleet commander. Although he has a rank in Orb's Self-Defense Forces, he was not enlisted and trained; he is most probably utterly unaware of how true soldiers proceed on the battlefield and whatnot. He has his own fighting style - which makes him a solo operative with at most two wingmen but not with a fleet behind him and under his thumb. Athrun, since he was a squad commander (under Le Creuset), is a likelier candidate but he was still convalescent when he went to space as well as strengthening his resolve for the final battles. Murrue Ramius is even better but I think Cagalli believed that the ability to turn tides would reside in MS pilots and not ships, although the Archangel's role in the Messiah war still was a preponderant one. Moreover, if Orb's soldiers knew Kira as 'Kira-sama', one should assume that he is more or less an already prominent figurehead among the soldiers (prob. due to his participation in CE71 in Orb's last stand) and holds enough charisma to lead people to the battlefield. As said above, yeah, he inspires others but I guess he'd still take Athrun's advice for their strategy. It is indeed a strange decision since Kira fights on his own in an MS...while a commander fights from behind a desk or way behind the lines, in a ship or some heavily protected HQ. Murrue was a better choice but I surmise that in the end, the MS pilots were those who had priority in ordering Terminal's troops around instead of waiting for the situation to be reported to Archangel, tactics to be processed and created and orders be given...perhaps too late.

As for the ZAFT rank structure: There aren't any official "ranks" due to them being a militia, but there's always someone in command. All who wears a green uniform is of the same rank as anyone else with a green uniform, and it's the same with the white, black and reds. For example, a greenie who's in charge of engineering on a ship can command the other greenies under his command, but he doesn't have to take orders from anyone with a red uniform - only the captain and the executive officer or anyone in another directly superior command positions.

ZAFT's structure has been based (according to an interview) on Tsahal's (Israel's army) - no ranks at all although generals can exist, but everyone is more or less on even footing (since technically everyone is equal before death). IIRC redcoats (captains?) are those who graduated from the Academy with high honors and top of their class, blackcoats (majors?) are higher officers part of the military bureaucracy and often addressed as 'kanchou' while whitecoats (colonels?) are blackcoats that have distinguished themselves in battle enough to gain a higher importance among their peers. Aces sometimes called 'taisho' or team commanders. Purplecoats would be HQ staff members, generals, Supreme Council members, garrison commanders, etc, etc.

Easy on the font there Renegade...

That's what happens when you write your post on NotePad first to reorganize the quotes a little faster (I deleted some afterwards), then copy and paste the whole thing back on the forum, forgetting that the formatting isn't deleted or re-standardized.

[Deacon Blues]

Easy on the font there Renegade...

Originally Posted by hanxthre

Dude do you honestly think Lacus is gonna let Shinn keep that FAITH badge? Nevermind the fact she'll probably wipe out FAITH completley and I doubt Shinn will be on the TERMINAL badge mailing list...Expect Shinn in a green jacket piloting a ZAKU custom to complete the nerfimas maximus xD...I can't wait to see what story Fukuda and his love slave pulls out of their ass to make this believable...Inquiring minds don't wanna know...

Terminal isn't anything that would warrant a rank. Basically Terminal is another term for DSSD and the corporations that make it up. :/

[_X12A_Testament]

Here are some major points why this isn't absurd at all.

1- A main consistant theme in the C.E. is that the change of regimes in an organization can mean everything despite the fact that the exterior may still look the same.

2- Final+ showed a regime change under Lacus.

3- Kira is a Coordinator and most of PLANT would embrace him as one of their own on that level.

4- We don't know if the ranking system of colors is even the same - maybe it is a visual change ordered by Lacus to signify a new regime. White could be the new basic uniform.

5- We could very well have two ZAFTs . There might be resistance to the Lacus regime and perhaps they will separate and continue to wear the red coats . Something like that would be way more interesting than the way it was before. Loyalists to Zala or maybe Durandal.

[hanxthre]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Easy on the font there Renegade...



Terminal isn't anything that would warrant a rank. Basically Terminal is another term for DSSD and the corporations that make it up. :/

Oh I know that, I was being a bit tounge in cheek is all.

4- We don't know if the ranking system of colors is even the same - maybe it is a visual change ordered by Lacus to signify a new regime. White could be the new basic uniform.

[tritoch]

LoL its funny when people over analyze this. There's no way in GSD that Kira would turn ZAFT. Maybe after Messiah's fall but not during any duration inside the GSD timeline cause it wouldn't make sense. Kira already accused Dully of allegedly trying to kill him and Lacus. Story-wise its very improbable.

[Renegade334]

I concur on that and I believe we'll only see Kira bedecked thusly when Lacus will walk up in her Councilwoman garb in that council chamber, probably replacing Yzak in the original scene. After all, like Cagalli's VA said in an interview, the SE were also rewritten with the idea to bridge the way up to the SEED movie so changes in later episodes are to be expected, if we keep that fact in mind. How many and how deep they will be is left to our speculation.

[Tak]

Guys, can we just agree that Kira looks 'tight' in that uniform?

Does it make fangirls scream in glee? Yes.

Does it sell? Yes.

Does it give straight-men a hard-on? I hope not.

Ok, problem solved.

- Tak

[OmegaZEROCustom]

Originally Posted by _X12A_Testament

2- Final+ showed a regime change under Lacus.

Forgive me, but when the hell did we see any absolute evidence of a regime change? All we saw were the ships and Gundam escorts and then Lacus walking to the council meeting hall. That doiesn't mean a regime change in any way. For all we know, she's going as a sort of UN-esque representative. The EA could have someone there too. Or she could just be returning to the roll she was once in, and that Meer was in, that being to rally the people of the PLANTs under the new council/chairperson.

FINAL PLUS showed us nothing of what Lacus would be doing, just that she was returning to the PLANTs for SOME reason. SE4 will hopefully expand on what we saw in FINAL PLUS.