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Old 2017-06-26, 08:35   Link #21
DragonOsman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparda4 View Post
If Saji and Vritra are so pumped to fight do you guys think this fight is more then what it seems ? They have a level of bloodlust from what i'm getting out of the quote
I don't think there's any bloodlust, though. Is it just me? It seemed more like a competitive challenge to me than a threat. And Ddraig also took it as a challenge from a fellow Dragon and strong rival that he shouldn't turn down.
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Old 2017-06-26, 08:51   Link #22
katokateki
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Quote:
My name is Vritra. Together with Saji Genshirou, we challenge Ddraig of the Heavenly Dragon to a fight!

――Dragon King Vritra
So, Sparda, again, seems like what you wished has kinda come true. Vritra taking over the fight. Might bring some unknown power-up on the table. Hehe.

And I think B214 might have spoiled us about the plot xD

Maybe Ravel finally lost the thing that was keeping her from becoming what her mother warned Ise about? Idk. But Koneko admiring Ravel really showcases their maturing.

Thanks n0m@n for the update!

EDIT: @Osman's post which I didn't see earlier (weird): yeah, no blood lust. Just a dragon showing his pride to another.
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Last edited by katokateki; 2017-06-26 at 08:53. Reason: Added stuff.
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Old 2017-06-26, 09:05   Link #23
DragonOsman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katokateki View Post
So, Sparda, again, seems like what you wished has kinda come true. Vritra taking over the fight. Might bring some unknown power-up on the table. Hehe.

And I think B214 might have spoiled us about the plot xD

Maybe Ravel finally lost the thing that was keeping her from becoming what her mother warned Ise about? Idk. But Koneko admiring Ravel really showcases their maturing.

Thanks n0m@n for the update!

EDIT: @Osman's post which I didn't see earlier (weird): yeah, no blood lust. Just a dragon showing his pride to another.
Nah, I don't think Vritra's taking over. He's just challenging Ddraig to a fight. Would you say that Ddraig accepting the challenge the way he did means he's going to control Ise? Because I wouldn't say that.

As for what you said about Ravel losing the thing you said was keeping her from doing what her mother warned Ise about: Yeah, I guess it's possible. We'll see when it comes to that.
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Old 2017-06-26, 11:55   Link #24
Lucidrago
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I'm very interested in how Ravel's path of supremacy will play into this volume. Since it said she lost something. Because of their loss against Dulio, Ravel might just be concerned with winning now no matter the price. And while Issei does want to win, Ravel would try to advise him against fighting against Saji which would cause differences between them. Because despite Issei knowing how important it is for them to win, he's not one to back down from a challenge, especially from his fellow pawn and rival. And because Issei is a king now, fighting Saji at this point and going up against the Sitri team is very dangerous no matter how strong he is. They know how strong he is and would come up with countermeasures against him. Ravel would consider that since she knows how good of a planner and tactician Sona is and since Issei is the king it's game over if he retires. So that's where you see their personal paths coming into conflict. And to be honest, Saji wouldn't be defeated by Issei without getting the last laugh.
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Old 2017-06-26, 12:48   Link #25
Sparda4
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Well the Phenex clan is know for wanting to win no matter what so i'm not that shocked by what Ravel is doing. @katokateki I don't know why but i get a lot of stuff right but i'm not gonna push my luck tho
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Old 2017-06-26, 14:54   Link #26
katokateki
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@Osman I was giving hopes to Sparda from when he thought Vritra could take over the charge in front of Indra. The above incident at least shows that Vritra can and will act according to his free will which might be to kill indra...

@Sparda Yeah you lucky son of a biscuit.
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Old 2017-06-26, 16:09   Link #27
Seafoam
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Still no cover? I see that in terms of pages, it's almost as long as volume 22, and longer than 20, which means it should be pretty detailed for the fights.
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Old 2017-06-26, 16:29   Link #28
Bennia Lover
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So basically the size of V21 and yeah it's an entire volume dedicated to 2 matches so it has to be this long.
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Old 2017-06-26, 16:31   Link #29
Sparda4
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Oh guys let me let you in on a little secret, i the reason i thought Vritra could take over was because of JD. What i mean by that is the Sacred Gear took control away from Issei no other way to explain why someone goes nuts from it because some can control their anger ( example being Vali) and in turn control the Juggernaut Drive the life steal aspect does help in going crazy but again it can be resisted. Sairaorg resisted BtB (JD and BtB are only different in what kind of creatures power it releases BtB being anything, JD Heavenly Dragon)
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Old 2017-06-26, 16:34   Link #30
Lucidrago
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Originally Posted by Sparda4 View Post
Well the Phenex clan is know for wanting to win no matter what so i'm not that shocked by what Ravel is doing. @katokateki I don't know why but i get a lot of stuff right but i'm not gonna push my luck tho
Where did you get that from? Because it's natural for a lot of people to want to win their matches. Why do you think it's because she's a Phenex?
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Old 2017-06-26, 16:41   Link #31
Sparda4
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^ The phenex are prideful bunch almost on the level of Dragons so yeah, and as a creature the Phoenix is proud of it's power to be always be reborn and be "undefeated"
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Old 2017-06-26, 16:53   Link #32
DragonOsman
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But Ravel seems to be unique with the "supremacy" thing in the Phenex Clan, from how her mother was warning Ise. It doesn't seem like it's a Phenex thing, at least not to me. Pride you're probably right about. Supremacy, though, is the Hakuryuukou's thing. Remember how they said before that the Sekiryuutei chose domination while the Hakuryuukou chose supremacy? Ise's path is probably domination through righteousness, or maybe righteousness through domination - either way it's still domination because he's the Sekiryuutei. Vali is all about supremacy, whatever flavor it may be in for him (like how Ise's is righteousness). Ravel needs to understand that supremacy and the Sekiryuutei don't mix, as they're like oil and fire. Ise has to win against Sona in a way that would be unique to him as the Sekiryuutei who believes in righteousness (and as the Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth, which kind of does fit if you think about it: righteousness -> Blazing Truth).
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Old 2017-06-26, 16:54   Link #33
Lucidrago
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Originally Posted by Sparda4 View Post
Oh guys let me let you in on a little secret, i the reason i thought Vritra could take over was because of JD. What i mean by that is the Sacred Gear took control away from Issei no other way to explain why someone goes nuts from it because some can control their anger ( example being Vali) and in turn control the Juggernaut Drive the life steal aspect does help in going crazy but again it can be resisted. Sairaorg resisted BtB (JD and BtB are only different in what kind of creatures power it releases BtB being anything, JD Heavenly Dragon)
That's assuming that JD works the same as Regulus Nemea's BtB. It might release the power but does BtB actually causes its possessors to go berserk. Sure it releases the full power of the Lion King, Regulus, and uses up your lifespan. But that doesn't mean it causes the possessors to go berserk like JD does.

And JD is not a matter of controlling your anger. The possessors went berserk because they drowned in the sea of negative emotions of the past possessors, losing themselves in the process. That's why Juggernaut Drive is a one-time use. Juggernaut Drive can't be reversed or controlled. It's a form that gives you immense power enough to defeat gods and asks for your life and sanity in return. Juggernaut Drive was not about controlling your anger. The immense power, the possessor going berserk, and losing their life was Juggernaut Drive. The past possessors drowned themselves in power, with some of them going Juggernaut Drive and killing themselves while destroying everything around them. Once you go Juggernaut Drive, you're not there anymore. There are no emotions to control. You have already lost yourself in the sea of negative emotions.

That's Juggernaut Drive normally. In abnormal cases like Issei, he was able to get out of there because the person who was Issei was still in there. Regularly, Issei should have lost himself in the sea of negative emotions. But the main thing that caused him to go Juggernaut Drive was him apparently losing Asia again. So over all those negative emotions, there was Issei still there moaning over apparently losing Asia when he simply should have drowned in the power that was Juggernaut Drive. So because Issei was still in there, he was able to get out of Juggernaut Drive. That's why Vali called Issei's JD 'incomplete.' Because Issei was still in there.

As in Vali's case, he used his immense demonic powers to maintain JD for a few minutes without succumbing to the negative emotions or his life force being sucked up. This resulted in a huge drain on his demonic powers and stamina. Vali was merely using his demonic powers to keep the floodwaters(of Juggernaut Drive) at bay for a few minutes. But the danger was still there for him. He just used his natural talent to make that power his b****. Well for a few minutes anyway. So Vali wasn't controlling his anger.
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Old 2017-06-26, 17:00   Link #34
Sparda4
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I agree with you on the fact that Issei's JD wasn't the real deal but Vali's was and here's the kicker Vali needed to control his anger otherwise he would have forgot to channel his demonic energy and go berserk just like all the others so Vali did control his anger it wasn't his demonic energy alone.

Anyways back to topic.
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Old 2017-06-26, 17:01   Link #35
Lucidrago
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Originally Posted by Sparda4 View Post
^ The phenex are prideful bunch almost on the level of Dragons so yeah, and as a creature the Phoenix is proud of it's power to be always be reborn and be "undefeated"
So why is winning just unique to them? Everyone wants to win. Issei wants to win, Rias wants to win, etc. It would be more accurate to say it's their pride as high-class devils.
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Old 2017-06-26, 17:13   Link #36
DragonOsman
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Originally Posted by Lucidrago View Post
That's assuming that JD works the same as Regulus Nemea's BtB. It might release the power but does BtB actually causes its possessors to go berserk. Sure it releases the full power of the Lion King, Regulus, and uses up your lifespan. But that doesn't mean it causes the possessors to go berserk like JD does.

And JD is not a matter of controlling your anger. The possessors went berserk because they drowned in the sea of negative emotions of the past possessors, losing themselves in the process. That's why Juggernaut Drive is a one-time use. Juggernaut Drive can't be reversed or controlled. It's a form that gives you immense power enough to defeat gods and asks for your life and sanity in return. Juggernaut Drive was not about controlling your anger. The immense power, the possessor going berserk, and losing their life was Juggernaut Drive. The past possessors drowned themselves in power, with some of them going Juggernaut Drive and killing themselves while destroying everything around them. Once you go Juggernaut Drive, you're not there anymore. There are no emotions to control. You have already lost yourself in the sea of negative emotions.

That's Juggernaut Drive normally. In abnormal cases like Issei, he was able to get out of there because the person who was Issei was still in there. Regularly, Issei should have lost himself in the sea of negative emotions. But the main thing that caused him to go Juggernaut Drive was him apparently losing Asia again. So over all those negative emotions, there was Issei still there moaning over apparently losing Asia when he simply should have drowned in the power that was Juggernaut Drive. So because Issei was still in there, he was able to get out of Juggernaut Drive. That's why Vali called Issei's JD 'incomplete.' Because Issei was still in there.

As in Vali's case, he used his immense demonic powers to maintain JD for a few minutes without succumbing to the negative emotions or his life force being sucked up. This resulted in a huge drain on his demonic powers and stamina. Vali was merely using his demonic powers to keep the floodwaters(of Juggernaut Drive) at bay for a few minutes. But the danger was still there for him. He just used his natural talent to make that power his b****. Well for a few minutes anyway. So Vali wasn't controlling his anger.
Great post. And I think you're right.

This is where Breakdown the Beast and Juggernaut Drive differ. Yes, they both shorten your lifespan and release the full power of the sealed creature. But that's where the similarities stop. Breakdown the Beast doesn't carry the danger of the user going berserk. There was no sign of that in Sairaorg, either (though he isn't really a true Sacred Gear possessor).

Vritra doesn't have Breakdown the Beast. Saji's Balance Breaker already releases the full power of Vritra, plus there's also fusion in it between their minds where they become one, so there's no room for Breakdown the Beast because for Saji, his Balance Breaker already kind of doubles as a Breakdown the Beast, too. And no, he won't go berserk or lose control. He and Vritra are one in that form, so Vritra won't be taking over (he probably can't).

@Sparda4: Vali controlling his anger wouldn't be enough for that in that case. Remember: Juggernaut Drive stems from the negative emotions of the past possessors of the Two Heavenly Dragons, not the current possessors. This is key. Because they are not his own emotions, he can't control them. His only choice, then, is to use his Demonic Power to keep them at bay. Make sense?

But I thought part of the reason why Ise's Juggernaut Drive was incomplete was also because Ddraig's full power wasn't released. Ise hadn't fully awakened it all yet, after all. One proof is the fact that the True Queen, which is an alternative to it, is said to be just as powerful, but it doesn't bring out the full power of Ddraig either.

Edit: One post late.

@Lucidrago: Agreed about the pride thing.
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Old 2017-06-26, 17:27   Link #37
Sparda4
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True that JD is the past member's negative emotions but if someone is angry it starts to rub of on you so he did need to keep his anger in check too.

And on the topic of Saji and Vritra not having a BtB i agree they don't have it but they still can use their lifeforce to get a LOT stronger absorption line works on the user also remember that ?
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Old 2017-06-26, 17:35   Link #38
DragonOsman
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Breakdown the Beat doesn't make the user go berserk. Unless you can show me proof to the contrary, that is. Also, for the Juggernaut Drive, what makes you so sure anger is the only negative emotion? First of all, I really don't think Vali keeping his emotions under control would get him anywhere since he mainly needs to keep the past possessors' negative emotions at bay. But even before we get to that, remember that it's negative emotions in general, meaning it doesn't just include anger. There's anger, sadness, pain, etc. etc.. Plus it's a whole flood of emotions from all of the past hosts until it intensifies into something almost impossible to control. How many emotions would Vali have to hold back? And again, it's triggered from the past possessors' emotions, so not much good would come of him holding back or controlling his own emotions, anyway. Same with Ise. The moment Juggernaut Drive activates, unless you have as much or more Demonic Power as/than Vali, you're already gone. Only Ise's case was different because he was still in there mourning Asia's "death" and playing the Oppai Dragon song brought him back.
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Old 2017-06-26, 17:56   Link #39
Sparda4
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I'm not going to argue with your points because your right, it's been a long time since JD was shown and Issei's grief turned to anger so i guess i made the assumption later on that JD=Rage sorry about that.

Now let's go back to discussing how the Sekiryuutei vs Sitri match would play out and what might Saji be holding in his sleeve
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Old 2017-06-26, 18:23   Link #40
DragonOsman
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Well, yeah, in Ise's case he was saddened by Asia's so-called "death" and that was what triggered it, but that was also the reason why he wasn't completely gone. Hence the incomplete Juggernaut Drive. In any other case, he would've been completely gone the instant Juggernaut Drive activated. Vali could only be fine for a few minutes because he has more Demonic Power than Ise.

But yeah, back to the Sekiryuutei vs. Sitri fight. As I'd said, the supremacy is more the Hakuryuukou's thing. Ravel also follows the path of supremacy, but she needs to know that she can't force Ise to follow that path because he follows the path of righteousness and also because, as the Sekiryuutei, supremacy just isn't for him (for the Sekiryuutei, it's always domination).

It seems like that Ravel trying to force it will cause a disagreement between her and Ise as others have said. Ise really wants to fight Saji, and Ddraig wants to fight Vritra. And vice versa, too. Even if Ise understands that he could end up costing his whole team the victory if he agreed to fight Saji in the match, his pride won't let him walk out of that fight. Not only as Saji's rival and fellow Pawn, but also as a Dragon.

But this is why I think if it comes to this, Ise and Ravel will have to work together to try to find a way to win the match even with the Ise/Ddraig vs. Saji/Vritra fight on the cards. In other words, they'll have to win especially as the Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth Team (emphasis on "Sekiryuutei"), in a way that would do the Sekiryuutei title proud.

Also, this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonOsman View Post
But Ravel seems to be unique with the "supremacy" thing in the Phenex Clan, from how her mother was warning Ise. It doesn't seem like it's a Phenex thing, at least not to me. Pride you're probably right about. Supremacy, though, is the Hakuryuukou's thing. Remember how they said before that the Sekiryuutei chose domination while the Hakuryuukou chose supremacy? Ise's path is probably domination through righteousness, or maybe righteousness through domination - either way it's still domination because he's the Sekiryuutei. Vali is all about supremacy, whatever flavor it may be in for him (like how Ise's is righteousness). Ravel needs to understand that supremacy and the Sekiryuutei don't mix, as they're like oil and fire. Ise has to win against Sona in a way that would be unique to him as the Sekiryuutei who believes in righteousness (and as the Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth, which kind of does fit if you think about it: righteousness -> Blazing Truth).
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