[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GreyZone]

As I am currently posting a lot in the EP4 thread: How did the trick for the shed work in EP4? Was Beatrice forcing Gohda and Kumasawa to "act" as if they were strangled and then killed them through the window? Or did she put a fake key into the corpses' pocket?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

As I am currently posting a lot in the EP4 thread: How did the trick for the shed work in EP4? Was Beatrice forcing Gohda and Kumasawa to "act" as if they were strangled and then killed them through the window? Or did she put a fake key into the corpses' pocket?

IIRC, they were both shot in the forehead in a way that would have been impossible to do from the window, so the key Battler found must have been a fake with the label from the real one attached. He never bothered to check it because he had already destroyed the door.

The way the scene probably played out was:
1. Yasu goes to the shed and has Kumasawa and Gohda, who still think they're playing a game, pass her the key.
2. She helps them set up fake nooses.
3. Under the guise of checking how the scene looks from the door, she fetches a gun she had stashed outside and shoots both of them.
4. She puts the real key's tag on a fake key and plants the fake in Gohda's pocket.
5. She relocks the door from the outside with the real key and leaves.

Depending on George's level of accompliceness, if she had George palm the real key after he locked the shed, she could have gotten it from him instead, but that's just an unnecessary extra level of complexity.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

IIRC, they were both shot in the forehead in a way that would have been impossible to do from the window, so the key Battler found must have been a fake with the label from the real one attached. He never bothered to check it because he had already destroyed the door.

The way the scene probably played out was:
1. Yasu goes to the shed and has Kumasawa and Gohda, who still think they're playing a game, pass her the key.
2. She helps them set up fake nooses.
3. Under the guise of checking how the scene looks from the door, she fetches a gun she had stashed outside and shoots both of them.
4. She puts the real key's tag on a fake key and plants the fake in Gohda's pocket.
5. She relocks the door from the outside with the real key and leaves.

Depending on George's level of accompliceness, if she had George palm the real key after he locked the shed, she could have gotten it from him instead, but that's just an unnecessary extra level of complexity.

There was, in an Agatha Christie's book if I'm not wrong, a trick that involved using a thin, long thread, of the type used for sewing. With a neddle you have it pass through the poket, then put both sides of the thread out of the window. Close everything with the key, go to the window, tie the key in a certain way to the thread then pull one head of the thread, causing the key to be pulled by the other at which it's attached. The key will end up in the poket then you'll pull the thread harder and it'll break. Since it's tied to the key in a certain way, no part of it will remain unlatched to the key but they both will be retrieved.

Sorry if I explained it poorly, I lack the English ability to make it clearer but in the book the trick worked and wasn't Yasu an Agatha Christie's reader?

This way she could have said in red the key was the right one.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

There was, in an Agatha Christie's book if I'm not wrong, a trick that involved using a thin, long thread, of the type used for sewing. With a neddle you have it pass through the poket, then put both sides of the thread out of the window. Close everything with the key, go to the window, tie the key in a certain way to the thread then pull one head of the thread, causing the key to be pulled by the other at which it's attached. The key will end up in the poket then you'll pull the thread harder and it'll break. Since it's tied to the key in a certain way, no part of it will remain unlatched to the key but they both will be retrieved.

Sorry if I explained it poorly, I lack the English ability to make it clearer but in the book the trick worked and wasn't Yasu an Agatha Christie's reader?

This way she could have said in red the key was the right one.

That's actually exactly how I imagined the whole trick worked.
I still wonder whether anybody was actually dead at all (except George) at the point when Battler met Beatrice at the mansion. Going by the way he was lead around the island there was enough time for Yasu to actually go around an kill people for real.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

There was, in an Agatha Christie's book if I'm not wrong, a trick that involved using a thin, long thread, of the type used for sewing. With a neddle you have it pass through the poket, then put both sides of the thread out of the window. Close everything with the key, go to the window, tie the key in a certain way to the thread then pull one head of the thread, causing the key to be pulled by the other at which it's attached. The key will end up in the poket then you'll pull the thread harder and it'll break. Since it's tied to the key in a certain way, no part of it will remain unlatched to the key but they both will be retrieved.

Sorry if I explained it poorly, I lack the English ability to make it clearer but in the book the trick worked and wasn't Yasu an Agatha Christie's reader?

This way she could have said in red the key was the right one.

That works too, but given multiple options, I tend to think she would go for the one that lets her totally seal off any means of returning the key from outside, since according to Our Confession she likes that kind of closed room.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

That works too, but given multiple options, I tend to think she would go for the one that lets her totally seal off any means of returning the key from outside, since according to Our Confession she likes that kind of closed room.

LOL actually I think that, depending to what Battler had proposed, she would have used an 'EP6 solution' and switched from a trick to the other. If he were to suspect the key had been changed she would use the thread trick and if he were to suspect a thread had been used she would go for the key switching (though to be honest the key switching could be the intended one as it was hinted in EP 7).

[Dormin]

I don't remember the exact red truths but wouldn't it be possible if Yasu pointed them from the window with a gun and threatened them to tie a noose around their heads? After placing the head on the noose she'd only have to shoot them the construct the scenario.

I don't remember if it was stated that shooting them trough the window was impossible, but if we believe Gohda & co believed to be playing, even the tying the noose around the neck could be justified by them believing to play death by hanging before being shot trough the window

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Dormin

I don't remember the exact red truths but wouldn't it be possible if Yasu pointed them from the window with a gun and threatened them to tie a noose around their heads? After placing the head on the noose she'd only have to shoot them the construct the scenario.

I don't remember if it was stated that shooting them trough the window was impossible, but if we believe Gohda & co believed to be playing, even the tying the noose around the neck could be justified by them believing to play death by hanging before being shot trough the window

Specifically, I think they were facing away from the window and had been shot directly in the forehead.

[Dormin]

Specifically, I think they were facing away from the window and had been shot directly in the forehead.

Though was it directly said that way? I really don't remember. If it were, that pretty much destroys my theory.

Only thing I specifically remember was thinking that shooting a hanged person is a total overkill

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Specifically, I think they were facing away from the window and had been shot directly in the forehead.

This is what the VN says

Spoiler for EP 4 Battler's investigation on Gohda and Kumasawa:

I thought I should check on the condition of Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san's corpses.
I hit the shutter with the hatchet, breaking into it, stuck the wire cutter into the crack, and scissored it around, opening up a hole.
Then, I faced Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san's corpses once more......
As a result, I learned of a new fact.

First, they had not died by being hung by the neck. Both of their feet were solidly on the floor.

......And on both of their foreheads were signs that they had been shot with a gun.
The loop seemed longish for a normal noose.

On top of that, the length was different on each to match the height of each person.
In other words, the lengths had been adjusted so that both Gohda-san, who was tall, and Kumasawa-san, who was short, had their feet solidly but barely on the ground.
Also, while the ropes carried both of their weights as their heads lolled, both of them had some slack below their knees.

This meant that if they had stood up with these loops around their necks, there would be some extra length.

In other words, this loop was a bit unsuitable to hang someone with.
The direct cause of death was probably a shot to the head.

It was gruesome. Their insides were still dripping out from that deep hole, staining their faces a deep red.

It's probably best to assume that they were then hung, pulled up, and left exposed like that.
......If they had been shot with a gun, they would probably have been lying down on the floor.

......If that had been the case, you wouldn't have been able to tell they were dead even if you peeked through the window.
The mountain of baggage would have gotten in the way, so if they had been lying down, they would have been hidden.
To make the deaths of these two known to the rest of us who couldn't go inside, they would have to hang them like this, and make it visible from the outside.

.........Was this, ......to get back at us for thinking that the two would surely be safe if we left the key with them......?
I wonder where the shutter key we gave Gohda-san, which should have ensured their safety, is now...
That key, .........was in the pocket of his trousers.
The gardening shed key had been kindly left there and even the plate was attached.

In other words, the gardening shed had been a closed room after all.
And that gave rise to another question.

......Because this can't be explained by a hanging.
If they hadn't committed suicide, then the noose was set up by the culprit.

......It might have been possible to shoot them through the window, but it's really unthinkable that someone could have tied two loops to the beam from the outside.
And furthermore, there's no way they could have lifted up the heavy corpses.
In other words, to do all of this, they would have had to go inside.
But the key was in Gohda-san's pocket, and the shutter had been locked.

In other words, the gardening shed had been a closed room.
Gohda-san had said that there was only one key for this shutter.

......But is it possible that there was a copy, ......and that the culprit was in possession of it......?
If we're allowed to theorize that there was actually a duplicate of the gardening storehouse key, and that Gohda-san just didn't know about it, then this isn't even close to a closed room.
.........But why is it that, despite the fact that almost all of the other corpses had been shot to death and left almost completely alone, these two corpses alone had been intentionally hoisted up?

I couldn't help but feel something a bit odd about that......

So according to Battler they could have been shoot through the windows. So if they set the loops around their neck and waited like that there was no need to remove the key from Gohda's poket.

Also, yes, they weren't facing the window when Battler found them but, if they had just turned their head and then had been shoot the head might have ended up returning to face forward once they were dead because the muscles wouldn't be able to keep it turned anymore.

[rogerpepitone]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

There was, in an Agatha Christie's book if I'm not wrong, a trick that involved using a thin, long thread, of the type used for sewing. With a neddle you have it pass through the poket, then put both sides of the thread out of the window. Close everything with the key, go to the window, tie the key in a certain way to the thread then pull one head of the thread, causing the key to be pulled by the other at which it's attached. The key will end up in the poket then you'll pull the thread harder and it'll break. Since it's tied to the key in a certain way, no part of it will remain unlatched to the key but they both will be retrieved.

Sorry if I explained it poorly, I lack the English ability to make it clearer but in the book the trick worked and wasn't Yasu an Agatha Christie's reader?

This way she could have said in red the key was the right one.

I'm pretty sure Agatha Christie never used any such device. It was used in an episode of Famous Detective Conan / Case Closed. Somebody posted a link to a snipped way back.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I'm pretty sure Agatha Christie never used any such device. It was used in an episode of Famous Detective Conan / Case Closed. Somebody posted a link to a snipped way back.

It might be I'm confusing the two, though I seem to remember Agatha Christie using a closed rom and a trick similar to it. But it's been so long from the last time I get the chance to read my collection of Agatha Christie's book I might remember wrong.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Is it not possible Battler just ... solved the epitaph, normally? After all, due to Erika's presence it's the only time he considers it with the adults and their clues, as well

It's possible, sure. We just don't know, because Battler's thoughts in EP5 are unreliable.

On the other hand, it's very strange for Battler to attribute his alleged discovery of the turned statue to Kinzo... when he did not actually see Kinzo and supposedly doesn't even know that Kinzo is dead.

I can maybe imagine a motive for Battler's lie under the assumption that he is actually aware that Kinzo is dead. But under the assumption that Battler thinks Kinzo is alive I can't make any sense of it.

At the very least, it suggests that Battler was aware that Kinzo was dead, which leads to the question of how he would know that.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

It's possible, sure. We just don't know, because Battler's thoughts in EP5 are unreliable.

On the other hand, it's very strange for Battler to attribute his alleged discovery of the turned statue to Kinzo... when he did not actually see Kinzo and supposedly doesn't even know that Kinzo is dead.

I can maybe imagine a motive for Battler's lie under the assumption that he is actually aware that Kinzo is dead. But under the assumption that Battler thinks Kinzo is alive I can't make any sense of it.

At the very least, it suggests that Battler was aware that Kinzo was dead, which leads to the question of how he would know that.

Perhaps they were indeed planning the "mystery murder game" to frame Natsuhi already, I mean his counsins must have been informed about it at some point and that was probably before Battler and Erika went out for the epitaph. Maybe him doing that act for some reason gave him some unusual motivation to solve the epitaph. We do not know for sure what may have happened behind the scenes.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Perhaps they were indeed planning the "mystery murder game" to frame Natsuhi already, I mean his counsins must have been informed about it at some point and that was probably before Battler and Erika went out for the epitaph. Maybe him doing that act for some reason gave him some unusual motivation to solve the epitaph. We do not know for sure what may have happened behind the scenes.

If one wants to interpret the scene in a 'gentle way' Battler didn't see Kinzo in person but that in his mind he saw Kinzo saying or doing something or, anyway though of him and this pushed him to go forward.

Let's assume Battler doesn't aim to harm anyone but he'd been involved in 'Beatrice/the adults' game' as he's been asked to play the role of who solves the epitaph and he was told Krauss might be hiding Kinzo's death for his own purpose and letting his siblings in troubles.

He might think he's doing the righteous thing in 'playing the role of the one who solves the epitaph against Natsuhi & Krauss'. Maybe he thinks just this will push them to confess, they'll split the gold and then he'll return the title to Krauss.

After all, if Battler solves the epitaph:

"You're now a real successor to the head! You've got to have an audience with Father and have him acknowledge you right away...!"

... and he could meet Kinzo only if Kinzo is alive, which will force Krauss to either show Kinzo is alive or admit his lie.

Then Erika with her words makes him think things might not go so smoothly and this isn't really a game and he'd been tricked into taking part to it.

He has second thoughts then... he remembers Kinzo saying something and takes his decision. And in his mind is as if Kinzo told him the way, same way as in Maria's mind Sakutarou is dead or alive but basically he really saw no one and Kinzo told him nothing right then.

Or he actually saw someone else (Shannon or even Genji) who helped him but he thought they were doing it because it would have been Kinzo's will so, thought this person, Kinzo 'told' him.

We know Battler must know Shannon & Kanon are involved as they're 'present' when he receives the ring. If he was handed the solution by someone, let's say Kyrie, who told him: "Grandfather is death but we can prove it. However before dying he understood Krauss might try to hide it for his own gain so he handed to one of his servants the solutions with instructions saying if he were to die and Krauss would try to hide it, they should pass the solution to you. This is what we have about the solution, it's sadly incomplete but grandfather though you would figure out how to continue so Battler-kun please help us reveal that grandfather die so we can give him a proper burial and make him rest in peace?"

Maybe he didn't take it seriously at first, he thought it was a joke, how could Krauss do something like this but then things start to get clearer and seeing a servant in the rain pointing to a direction surprised him and confirmed him the fact this might be not a random treasure hunting game but that he's following grandfather's wills.

In the manga we see he was surprised enough by what he saw he dropped his umbrella so I'll say he saw something that surprised him. Just not Kinzo.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

There's an interesting riddle in the 6th game(especially if you consider Erika to be an actual existence in the world of the Game Boards).

Namely, the closed room scenario.

Lady Beatrice suggests that Kanon is neither in the closet, bedroom or the bathroom.
The commonly accepted theory is that Erika Shot and killed Kanon

But Knox's 7th prevents the detective from being the Culprit

So, how exactly did Kanon escape from the closed room? Battler most certainly isn't coming back, Erika has refused to open the chain lock "for all eternity". And the windows can't be opened.

Here's my theory:

The winds from the typhoons broke the windows, during that time Erika was still inspecting the bathroom. So she couldn't have noticed Kanon escape.

It's true that the windows can't be "opened", but there's no red or blue text against them being "broken".

[Renall]

Erika isn't a detective. That was... kind of the whole point of everything she does in ep6.

Also if you believe in character Shkanonigans then you can just say Kanon stopped being Kanon and Erika never has to have actually undertaken any action. I don't know why you would argue Kanon stopped being Kanon, but it's apparently valid under the red.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by Renall

Erika isn't a detective. That was... kind of the whole point of everything she does in ep6.

Also if you believe in character Shkanonigans then you can just say Kanon stopped being Kanon and Erika never has to have actually undertaken any action. I don't know why you would argue Kanon stopped being Kanon, but it's apparently valid under the red.

But didn't Lady Beatrice acknowledge that Erika was the detective when Erika asked to confirm she didn't want to save Battler/Kanon.

[GreyZone]

Erika killed at least 5 people in EP6, therefore she isn't the detective.

I see you still try to prove Rosatrice... or at least you try to disprove shkanon.

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

But didn't Lady Beatrice acknowledge that Erika was the detective when Erika asked to confirm she didn't want to save Battler/Kanon.

No, she did not do that. At least not in red.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Erika killed at least 5 people in EP6, therefore she isn't the detective.

I see you still try to prove Rosatrice... or at least you try to disprove shkanon.



No, she did not do that. At least not in red.

**Sips tea** The point wasn't to prove Rosatrice or to disprove Shkanontrice.

The point was to discuss Umineko Theorem, and to enjoy ourselves.