Re:Zero - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Tong

The anime is very very explicit too!

Spoiler for Pic:

I suggested the manga to expand on that^

You totally missed my point but I don't want to debate on this or bring in another series discussion into this thread.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

This episode finally made me figure out why this arc is not working for me.


The show started with an interesting premise - a smart and cunning protagonist who thinks like a real person being transported into a fantasy world that ends up having lots of mysteries and politics in it. For once the MC could not just force his way through via protagonist powers, so he had to plan and plot himself through trial and error. We finally had MC who was psychologically realistic and had a brain instead of descending into drama or using protagonist power. We were learning things alongside the protagonist and the the world was interesting and the narrative did not need edgy shockers to up the stakes - the tension and mystery was enough.

Then alongside the way it seems author has forgotten that. The author has realized that since Subaru can reset time, you can throw all kinds of disguting and triggering things at him and kill him in various ways and it won't end up mattering seconds latter. Such an easy way to create shock and pin the viewers via cliffhangers!

I would have to heavily disagree here. In fact this very arc began with Subaru making all kinds of mistakes because the previous arcs had such drastic effects on him. Remember the argument he had with Emilia and how he screamed that she owed him? It showed an underlying issue that had developed and that he felt he was entitled to her because of all the suffering he's had to go through to help her. All those deaths have had a marked effect on him.

The problem? The show is not really deconstructing anything(and I HATE that term and how it keeps being thrown around as justification for various shows). It is still very by-the-book LN except it has more gore and SUFFERING for the protagonist. The protagonist still perseveres and achieves all he wants, but instead of fighting he does that by dying and SUFFERING.

Well I don't see what's entirely wrong with that but yes I do agree that that is the main premise. He's thrown in another world but instead of being blessed with awesome powers, he's been blessed with suck. But didn't you say you liked that from the beginning? "For once the MC could not just force his way through via protagonist powers, so he had to plan and plot himself through trial and error". Well what do you think trial and error means?

The author takes the easy road in adjusting the intelligence of various characters in order to create the MAXIMUM SUFFERING for the protagonist. Like in this episode every other candidate is suddenly embodiment of the devil(because of course Emilia's pure and idealistic vision is the best you guyse), just so Subaru gets no help at all. And at the top of it Subaru grows even dumber in the way he negotiates with them making all the possible mistakes. Is this the same guy who conned Rom into buying a freaking cellphone? How?

I don't think the other candidates changed their thinking in order to be an arse to Subaru. As other people have pointed out, while their thinking isn't very noble (and coincidently reveals how good Emilia is compared to them) they are being practical since it means one candidate goes out without them having to do anything.

As for Subaru growing dumber, I do think it was awfully stupid how he didn't notice that every person in that bar was wearing the exact same uniform but I think that's the animators messing up rather than the writer (and it probably wouldn't have made a difference even if Subaru did notice). Otherwise I don't see how he got dumber. He was a desperate man with nothing to offer and a bad public reputation. Not to mention that, as others have pointed out, he was broken to the point of insanity mere hours ago so he's not going to be 007 smooth. However...

The show has taken the easy road and still retains most of the bad LN tropes. It just does it via suffering. And at the cost of all the interesting things that first eleven episodes drew me in with - the lore, the mysteries, the smart and realistic protagonist.

Subaru can't win with "suffering". The point is that Subaru learns from his mistakes. This is why every time he screwed up with each candidate he was given a piece of advice on how he should've done things. It's the narrative's way of speeding things up and telling him how to develop. And we see these results within the same episode. Crusch told him that he was overly focused on revenge with nothing but murderous intent in his eyes. But at the end of the episode, what did Subaru do? He managed to negotiate with merchants to make a force that can evacuate the villagers who are in danger. After all the crap he's gone through and how much he's suffered, he kept his priorities straight and acted admirably and only thinking of other. This was Subaru at his very best. Anastasia told him that he needed to focus on what the opposing side wants in negotiations and we saw that when dealt with the merchants. And Priscilla...well she's just a bitch...

All of it is gone for sake of throwing as many shocking things as possible at the viewer since author can handwave it away seconds latter. So we can have cliffhangers upon cliffhangers of Subaru dying to all sorts of nasty things and encountering the grossest possible things because author won't have to deal with consequences of it. He can just reset it back and prepare next shocking and gory moment.

I don't think I can continue watching a show that seems to solely focused upon author's sick and sadistic need to torture and belittle it's characters in gory ways. I might pick up it again once it is finished and i can skip the cringy, embarassingan d triggering bits and don't have to sit through scenes that either make me cringe or cause me a panic attack like last week(or this week with that whale thing...UGHH).

I know I am quite hard on Alderamin but that show will be enough for me this season. At least it still tries to be realistic and do things differently from the usual LNs. Rezero only pays a lip service to that and has long since abandoned what made it good for me for sake of cheap shock moments.

I mean don't get it wrong, the show is still directed real well and I am sure it captures what the story and narrative is about. White Fox is handling the production perfectly (barring few slip ups like badly directed candidacy ball stuff), but its just that the narrative itself is not only no longer what I liked about it in the first place, but it is starting to really drag on. All we are getting is shockers and gory scenes ans SUFFERING, but the plot is barely moving. At least while Arc 2 dragged through the whole cour, it still had interesting mystery, likeable protagonist and focus on interesting characters. And still progressed the story and Subaru's character. Arc 3 so far is just stuck in the same pit of gore and suffering and that's just not what I signed up for. It no longer has what I wanted out of it and only delivers negative emotions for me. So N-ope.

Really, I think this show has been more about perseverance than suffering, because Subaru always ends up winning one way or the other. I do appreciate that these last few episodes have been relentlessly harsh on Subaru despite him meaning well, but we are meant to pity him and revel in his success rather than laugh at his misfortune and I expect a big payoff when he does succeed this time.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Applehell

There is one big problem with you view that you're overlooking: The White Whale that has currently taken up residence between the captial and Roswaal's land. Even if Crusch had agreed to help Subaru she would still have to get through that monster to get there in time. That's even not talking about the battle itself which could see her losing signficant amount of her forces anyway, pontienal leaving her without enough manpower to fight the Witch Cult. There also point in ep 14 where Crusch stated she has been doing her preparations for something so she may not even have strength to spare to help Subaru.

So it bit more complicated then your making out to be and she really isn't a position to take advangte of anything. Not when she probably has her own problems.

I think this is not the right reason as during the supposed negotiation, the news of the fog covering the shortest route has not even reached the capital yet.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by larethian

I think this is not the right reason as during the supposed negotiation, the news of the fog covering the shortest route has not even reached the capital yet.

Oh, I was under the impression Crusch knew about being in the area beforehand. Thanks for clearing that up. Still she seems to be preparing for something of her own.

[Elestia]

Didn't Anastasia already allude to it? Crusch is moving a large volume of iron and weapons into the capital.

[SeaDoor]

This episode went as I expected but it was still frustrating to watch. The three candidates sure are aggressive in their own ways so that under other conditions this election would be hard fought and likely outside of Emilia's capabilities.

[felix]

Originally Posted by SeaDoor

This episode went as I expected but it was still frustrating to watch. The three candidates sure are aggressive in their own ways so that under other conditions this election would be hard fought and likely outside of Emilia's capabilities.

The position of priestess of the dragon or whatnot sure must be lax if they all don't care for anything else other then being at each others throats.

[ninjastarforcex]

this dude just can't stop screaming it's pissing me off

[Incest Emblem]

Originally Posted by blakstealth

It's probably a weak point that Subaru can take advantage of IF he gets to re-do his conversation with her. but right now, he's not right in the head.

Trying to convince Crusch to help is one way to go about it.

Then other is to record the conversation on his cell phone and sell the recording to another candidate in exchange for help. Assuming publicity matters at all to the candidacy--I am somewhat skeptical, given every candidate except Crusch more or less said straight out that they would burn the empire to the ground--that and the prospect of making the other candidate herself a national hero may be sufficient.

[R.LocK]

I'll take one thing away from conversation: this is astounding how much importance people put into a half-dead device that can only be used by Subaru.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Didn't Anastasia already allude to it? Crusch is moving a large volume of iron and weapons into the capital.

And a larger than usual amount people moving within the captial, particularity at Crusch place.

Originally Posted by ninjastarforcex

this dude just can't stop screaming it's pissing me off

What are you going on about? Did forget what just happened last week (which just happened a few minutes ago)? He's more calmer than most people would be after that. He's pressured and he doesn't have a lot of time on top of which two of candidates have basically just humiliated him. He's not having a good day to put it mildly.

[Elestia]

Yeah, I can't fully blame Subaru and I can't really condone his behavior. He's put himself in an awkward position as a protagonist this arc.

[Jerseykid]

tough to live up to last week's episode

[moridin84]

I've forgotten. How does the election thing work? There's 5 candidates, how do they decide who wins?

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by moridin84

I've forgotten. How does the election thing work? There's 5 candidates, how do they decide who wins?

The manga's verison of episode 13 implied that popluance chooses.

[zero7090]

Originally Posted by Haak

I would have to heavily disagree here. In fact this very arc began with Subaru making all kinds of mistakes because the previous arcs had such drastic effects on him. Remember the argument he had with Emilia and how he screamed that she owed him? It showed an underlying issue that had developed and that he felt he was entitled to her because of all the suffering he's had to go through to help her. All those deaths have had a marked effect on him.

I think he was referring to the fact that everyone became an asshole to Subaru for the suffering sake just because the author can rest it.

Look at Rem, she killed main char twice in gruesome way but still get reset and become the best girl.

I don't think the other candidates changed their thinking in order to be an arse to Subaru. As other people have pointed out, while their thinking isn't very noble (and coincidently reveals how good Emilia is compared to them) they are being practical since it means one candidate goes out without them having to do anything.

They are specially anal. They keep taunting him and use abusive speech.

[Stark700]

Ah Priscilla always with her taunting...

Good episode, loved the buildup all the way to the finish especially in regards to Subaru's personality this week. New ED theme song is nice too imo. (although I personally prefer the previous one)

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by zero7090

I think he was referring to the fact that everyone became an asshole to Subaru for the suffering sake just because the author can rest it.

Look at Rem, she killed main char twice in gruesome way but still get reset and become the best girl.




They are specially anal. They keep taunting him and use abusive speech.

Oh please nobody became an asshole just because. Subaru barely knows any of these people outside their names, moreover they consider him part Emilia's camp a political rival. They aren't do things just because he says so. Even he's treatment is being done because of a deal Emilia and Crusch. There reasons for everyone doing what they do directly stated or otherwise and this clearly meant to be learning experience for him.

[felix]

I'm surprised he's tacking this long to figure out human rights don't really apply to this world. Especially after in the second arc he got brutally murdered and hunted down not once but twice. Not to mention how in the first arc he got murdered how many times?

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But they aren't, yet. In fact, even if she wins, they'll still be Roswaal's people. Depending on what tack Roswaal takes after losing, the nuance may be pretty significant.

You're way too optimistic about the pros of sticking her neck out. For one thing, everything would have to go well. Subaru would have to be right about the attack taking place, and she'd have to win the battle, while suffering few losses of her own, and without letting the cultists escape. And even in that best case scenario, she wouldn't eliminate the Witch Cult.

As for the importance of that propaganda coup, it really depends on who votes.


Something tells me most people don't get a vote.

The people vote, its been explicitly mentioned.

Which maybe should tell you something of the importance of compassion in politics.

Very important if the people are the one voting for you. I'm pretty sure Crusch is going to try to win over her votes by trying to be a hero and slay a dragon.