2012-04-30, 20:04 | Link #241 | ||||
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35
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As for the animated bit, I thought that both times they got it wrong. Den screwed it up in the series and the movie, and ufotable made Rin waaaay too eager in the scene that was meant to be a last meeting. Quote:
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Tokiomi still screwed it up with the stats though, even if it didn't really matter at the end of the day I guess. But wait, if Rin was going to summon EMYIA no matter what, did that mean he was also summoned from the world EMYIA himself came from? I was under the impression that she had a different Archer in that world. Quote:
The point I'm making is that Tokiomi was so caught up in training Rin as a magus, that he didn't really consider how his actions could have an effect on Rin's life, even if it was messing with her clocks and making them go faster an hour. She might have an appointment she needs to go to, and when she arrives there she realizes that she's an hour early etc. wasting her time for no good reason, or in the case of the VN, making her summon a servant with lower stats.
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2012-04-30, 20:32 | Link #243 | |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 37
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And honestly, Rin could have taken five minutes to change a few clocks when she noticed they turned. There is no blame on Tokiomi here. I think we can apply that to the majority of the Nasuverse.
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2012-05-01, 22:31 | Link #244 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Age: 33
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I also enjoy the extremely minor change in their exchange from, "keep the magic association in your debt," in the original flashback, to, "keep the church in your debt," in the anime, as I felt that the mention of a magi's relationship to the church was more relevant to this particular episode. Tokiomi had, after all, been collaborating with it throughout the Grail War, and the murder of its representative, Risei Kotomine, is what prompted his sudden burst of pessimism.
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2012-05-01, 22:43 | Link #246 |
King of Heroes
Join Date: Feb 2009
Age: 38
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Well, if we're saying the adaptations could make changes that more effectively communicate things that they might not otherwise have, I think having her father give her the jewel right as he leaves also emphasizes the jewel's importance.
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2012-05-01, 23:35 | Link #247 | |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 37
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2012-05-03, 23:05 | Link #248 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Of course there's the "Tohsaka curse", i.e. "always screws up at the pivotal moment". You see this in action in Ep 17. You also saw Rin's version of the curse kicking in while she summoned Archer an hour before her planned ideal time, lol. You would love Tokiomi too if you are his child. That man is a boss. EDIT: You may argue "but look how he threw Sakura into a hell hole". It was not his fault really. Any competent magus would have chosen the same path. Magi's goal is to reach Akasha, and doubling the chance of your descendants reaching Akasha is something you absolutely cannot pass up. Also, House Matou had been quite a valorous House. Young Zouken was quite the hot-blooded hero. Tokiomi probably had absolutely no idea the head of House Matou had fallen so far from grace. 'Tis all an unfortunate series of events, really. |
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2012-05-05, 15:44 | Link #249 | |||
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35
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So, on the topic of Fate/Zero increasing my appreciation of Fate/Stay Night, I couldn't help but think about was this during Kerry's ''choice''
Spoiler for :
Suddenly, Saber's fate in Heaven's Feel doesn't seem so bad (well, aside for what happens to her when she gets back to the 500's, but this is another case of lol Nasu so ...) Quote:
And being an anime-only watcher (I played the game but I have to yet read the LN for Zero, outside of reading the chapters that the anime had already covered) I had felt that the anime had done a fantastic job at not only adapting, but improving upon the established work and making things a whole lot tighter and more satisfying than it was in either the game or the book. I like the original source, but I honestly am in love with the anime right now. And to think this is from the director of Girl's Bravo lol... Quote:
In the end, I think that both Deen and ufotable did the flashback scenes a lot better than the VN, by giving it a lot more significance than it had originally. Quote:
As for Tokiomi, I do get what you are saying. Yes, on the surface level, Tokiomi had been an excellent head of the house. He clearly took care of his wife, made sure she was happy and satisfied. He cared for his girls future, given by how much he took into sending Sakura to another family to become it's successor (putting aside for the moment that he didn't know about what sort of person Zouken had become) and making sure to name Kirie as Rin's guardian in his will (preparing for any possibility) etc. Yes, Tokiomi was successful ... on the surface of everything, that is. No matter how much we try and justify it Tokiomi had, knowingly, sent Sakura to the Matou's knowing that there would be the possibility that she might, one day, fight with Rin. He chose to make his youngest daughter a magus not because it was in her best interest, but because it was in his family best interest, or at least what he thought would be in the Tohsaka's futures best interest. He could've chosen to not make her a magus, to let her live a normal life, but because of her rare ability, he didn't want to let it go to ''waste'', and instead of having her being a target of the Association since she wouldn't be a head of the house, he decided to send her to a rival (not an unrelated) house, where she would be taught. He could have sent her away from the country to a different one where she could've started life away from the possibility of having to fight her sister in the future, but he didn't. And that's really the problem with Tohsaka Tokiomi. Oh sure, the Tohsaka curse comes into play a bit, but there can be on denying that the man has a very wrapped view of the world, to the point where he can only see things in a tunnel vision of the route to the Root, not about how it effects the lives of those close to him. The reason why Tokiomi took care of his wife, appeared as a loving father figure to Rin, and arranged for both of his girls futures so early had more to do with him viewing them as assets to be cared for and maintained, not as other human beings whom he should love. Sure, I do think there was a part of him that really did care for his family, but the biggest part went into thinking ''what is the best way to utilize them?'' not ''what is the best way to make them happy?''. Tokiomi thought that the only way to live is by the path of the magus, and assumed that would be the case with his daughters, both born with rare and high magical capabilities, so he got them to go on the same path, not realizing that there were other roads he could have taken.
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2012-05-05, 17:33 | Link #250 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
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Of course status and Master matter.
The reason Sabre's hacking and slashing do nothing to Hercules was because Shirou was such a fail Master and caused Sabre's STR to drop. The reason Gilgamesh was able to block and parry Sabre's hack and slash in the bridge encounter in Stay Night was because Shirou was a fail Master. Status do not directly influence Noble Phantasms, but Servants do not let their Noble Phantasms rip all the time (they would burn out before the War is over). Furthermore, having a crappy Master will also cause the rank of Servant skills to drop as well. Read this for some examples: http://completematerial.pbworks.com/...32479544/Index Also, being a magus is a way of life. Personal gains or losses are insignificant compared to the goal of reaching Akasha. If you really want to pin a blame, blame the entire mage order. Tokiomi did no wrong. He did all he could for his House and his family. |
2012-05-06, 00:28 | Link #251 | ||||||
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35
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First of all, I want to thank you for posting that link. I didn't know there was a place where they had a translated CM before, so that certainly helped me a lot
On the topic of status, I want to point out that the stuff written in CM 3 sort of confirm that Who the Servant Is >>>> What their Status is/Who is their Master. Quote:
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And while Archer might have had his best stats underneath (lol?) Tokiomi Quote:
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And the nail in the coffin is Quote:
And yes, as a Master Shirou was pretty crappy (well in terms of providing support and what not. He wasn't the worst master in the 5th war tho) but even then, there wasn't much he could've done in regards to Hercules (Saber couldn't do Hack-n-Slash with Hercules in the first place, due to again him being Hercules and having God Hand and all) and Gilgamesh stopping Saber with his armor (I actually think Deen did the scene better with him using a sword instead) he did point out that he could only do it a few times before the armor gave out (and if we take what CM 3 said about his Golden Armor, that is actually impressive) That said, I wonder how reliable the CM books are really when it comes to the canon of the games ... Spoiler for Heaven's Feel?:
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2012-05-06, 09:11 | Link #252 |
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 37
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Shirou didn't use UBW to construct Excalibur, he did it from scratch the old fashioned way. He only used UBW in the UBW route.
On a side note, I have final this week and the last thing I needed was a link to the CM translated.
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2012-05-06, 09:34 | Link #253 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Before episode 16 I was thinking Kiritsugu might pull Aoi into the fight to get at Tokiomi. But that idea died with Tokiomi.
Maybe Aoi just raises Rin normally for a few years then dies in a car accident or something. Rin's a little too stable for me to think both her parents died and she lived on her own until F/SN. And I can't imagine Kotomine did much as her guardian. He's too unsettled right now. And Rin turned out too normal. |
2012-05-06, 09:55 | Link #256 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
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The "Good" ending, not the True ending. He doesn't fight Kirei, so he's not completely broken when it's 1v1 against Angra Mainyu. So he traces Excalibur (note: the translation just says they can't be replicated, not that UBW can't do it, so it's still wrong) and blows it up, along with himself. Note that Archer also threatened to do it to Saber in the UBW route.
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2012-05-06, 10:30 | Link #257 | |
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
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Excalibur is non-replicable in that it can't be perfectly reproduced. Archer himself admitted it can't be perfectly copied and that he could only "get it close". I'm assuming the sword Shirou projected at the end of HF was also just a poor knock-off of Excalibur. It's still very powerful, but it's not a divine sword.
Basically, it's more or less the same as his projection of Kansho and Bakuya, whose originals are uber powerful compared to the one Archer uses. Quote:
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2012-05-06, 11:25 | Link #258 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
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Every sword that Shirou/Archer traces isn't perfect. That's why they're always a rank lower than they would be if it were the real deal.
As for Kansho and Bakuya, what do you mean uber powerful? Archer's are rank C if I recall, meaning the originals would be rank B. That barely puts them on the same level as Gae Bolg, and unlike Gae Bolg they don't have a sure-fire kill ability. |
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