Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans Episode 48 Discussion / Poll

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by tdx

Well, there's no accounting for tastes of course, but I started having my first shy "wait, are you serious...?" moments of disbelief when we'd learned that McGillis, a chessmaster extraordinaire before that point, had bet his and Tekkadan's everything on the flimsy manmade rule of Bael without any sort of backup plan, secret reserves or anything really, and proved pretty much a fool in the battle against Arianrhod (what did he hope for? I still can't answer that question), while Orga pretty much lost his entire character and all the development of 1.5 seasons and ended up much worse than he started off as. It only snowballed from there, culminating in this... I don't know how to call it, but that's not good writing, for me.

Also, Orga died just for Mika's last second character development (you did catch when he said just before dying, I hope), it's just so late that at this stage it feels nothing but forced and even dumb to me.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Yeah the problem is to get this point. McGillis, Orga and Kudelia all had to get hit with the nerf bat heavily. Its not so much Orga died. Its the fact that they basically ruined the character by taking away everything that made him a good character in the first place then killed him off all so Mika can get his Harem and Live? F That.

I think what both of you thought of Orga don't exactly match with what OkadaxNagai portrayed. This kind of development has been hinted at since Biscuit's demise which leaves no one to counter Orga's often-good but reckless decisions. Orga is very capable of making mistakes without Biscuit. Even his "last-dance" plan at the climax of S1 wouldn't have worked and majority of Tekkie's MW units would've been butchered if not for Eugene's timely backup (which Orga didn't put into consideration at all back then). I excused that one simply because the Tekkies had no choice back then. Then we saw firsthand how Orga made string of (what can be considered as) bad decisions at the very start of S2 by putting Chad to lead the Earth Branch instead of someone like Eugene who is more competent and who can smell Radiche's treachery from afar. After that, he made a deal with McG that attract even more enemies despite some advantage it has. Orga's not good at politics and sweet business talks and Naze see Orga's rashness too. Heck, even Orga this episode said it himself how off course he had become. Orga is consistently-written to be kickass-but-flawed and that's what the show has presented us. Many people from the audiences already pointed out concerns for Orga's decisions pretty much since he agreed to allied himself with McGillis and the earth-branch blunder. In this episode, we saw Orga revert to his S1-self after being derailed for quite some time which is a good thing to have before he died. At least Orga died protecting his boys that he consider precious for Tekkadan while leading them to (supposed) safety which is more or less how he wanted to end his life back in S1, protecting his men to the end. Orga's character journey so far has been the writers delivering what they hinted before regarding what will become of Orga without Biscuit. Some gangster flicks also use this kind of setting FYI.

As for McGillis only relying on Bael, yeah, I also think they gave him the idiot ball on that one. If you read my post on that particular episode, I'm not too happy about it myself. But it could've been worse. A lot worse.

Kudelia has been out of touch with all these battles and mafioso stuffs that have been going on since she has to manage his mining company, school and orphanage. So far, she's not dumbed down. Heck, Takaki's "sane" decision to leave Tekkadan (which ends well for him and his imouto, so far) was thanks to Kudelia.

[blakstealth]

The moment the scene cut to Ride and ORga walking down that hallway to Chad, I fuckin knew someone was about to die. I was expecting a sniperr, so the driveby was surprising. But really, Orga's death is just too soon for me. Too many deaths these past few episodes.

[Skaddix]

So your saying Orga got worse? Didn't evolve not sure what your point was. A little luck is acceptable, Team Rustal is certainly getting plenty.

Radiche was sent by Teiwaz. Not sure how its Orga's fault they didn't vet their man. The Earth Mission was suppose to be some simple training exercise to get the Arbrau Military on better footing. Who would send their top LT for such a simple mission? Without Radiche being a traitor, none of that ever happens.

Alliance with McGillis only went bad because of said idiot ball.

Kudelia has one job essentially in my book keep Public Opinion High for Tekkadan be that politically or with speeches. She has failed to do that totally. Nobliss stepping out of line can be laid directly at her feet. Because she is too busy pining after Mika.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by blakstealth

The moment the scene cut to Ride and ORga walking down that hallway to Chad, I fuckin knew someone was about to die. I was expecting a sniperr, so the driveby was surprising. But really, Orga's death is just too soon for me. Too many deaths these past few episodes.

I personally figured out that Orga was getting the hit when he had that conversation with Mika in front of Rex. That sealed it for me and that "he's returned to the old Orga" part earlier also helped. There was also McGillis commenting on Mika's reliance on Orga for direction.

But it was a beautiful conversation though, definitely one of my favorite interactions between the two characters in the entire show. I knew it was to be their last. I would very much am interested in seeing Mika's response to this. Probably either going to withdraw or go berserk all out.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

So your saying Orga got worse? Didn't evolve not sure what your point was. A little luck is acceptable, Team Rustal is certainly getting plenty.

In a way, yes. Look mate, "character development" isn't always "good development". And in Orga's case, it's more like "you get some, you lose some" just like some actual people in our world. Orga definitely became smarter and more savvy CEO than his S1-self, but in terms of personality he becomes more rash, reckless and a bit "cocky" in some areas without Biscuit at his side..

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Radiche was sent by Teiwaz. Not sure how its Orga's fault they didn't vet their man. The Earth Mission was suppose to be some simple training exercise to get the Arbrau Military on better footing. Who would send their top LT for such a simple mission? Without Radiche being a traitor, none of that ever happens.

The bolded line was putting things too lightly. A branch office is still a damn corporation that needs a good brain for leading it (even more so if it's your first branch ever). And since this is an important branch that Tekkie has, anyone who have experience in managing branch offices will tell you that it's a stupid decision not sending one of your finest people to manage it (in this case, Eugene). And like I said, Eugene would've been able to smell Radiche's teachery from miles away because he did just that in the show without being the actual BM of the earth branch.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Alliance with McGillis only went bad because of said idiot ball.

Alliance with McG also comes with an extra voucher of "making Arianrhod your enemy from the get-go" because Rustal is targeting McG .

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Kudelia has one job essentially in my book keep Public Opinion High for Tekkadan be that politically or with speeches. She has failed to do that totally. Nobliss stepping out of line can be laid directly at her feet. Because she is too busy pining after Mika.

Uh, no. Her job after S1 is to manage the half-metal production/distribution, manage her public school with free lunch (free lunch is a big thing), and manage her orphanage too. She's too busy to go around making PR speeches. She said as much to the douche who hired Dawn Horizon. Also, Tekkadan has been declared as heroes before Rustal came in, and now he is working with Nobliss. Nobliss rocks the media as you can witness in the Dort incident. Now, Nobliss pulled the plug of his support from Kudelia and pretty much becomes her enemy now as long as she associated herself with Tekkie. And Kudelia can't speak to the masses without solid proof either (in Dort, her ship was literally being attacked on screen as proof). So, it's pretty understandable why Kudelia is not doing so hot on PR at this point in the story.

[DragoonKain3]

Orga noo! At least he died after the plan was formulated. Seeing that the episode was 'promise' and it involves Orga/Mika promise, I knew he was done for when Mika asks him to bring the gun back.

And Iok, man, I love this character. His heart is in the right place, and I can see why he is very popular with his subordinates. Just too bad his execution isn't exactly great lol.

So if next episode is Fareed vs Gali, final episode is Mika vs Julia? Sounds about right.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Also, it's obvious that IBO was heavily inspired by gangster movies.

Most underrated comment of the thread. Season 1 was more like Yakuza films, but season 2 is all about Mafia films. After Lafter's death, I'm not at all suprised it was done again in the same manner.

Originally Posted by akumaten

YOU MISSED AGAIN, MCGILLIS?!!! You misseg Galielo and now Iok?

At this point I think he's doing it on purpose (or at least Okada is). Somehow McGillis concocts a plan to take down Rustal even at the cost of his own life (next episode is named after him), and it takes the rest of the upper echelon of the Seven Stars as collateral damage. After Gjallahorn has upstanding people like Gali-gali and Idiok leading the reborn faction.

[Skaddix]

I don't feel the CD was organic. That is the problem.

Here is the problem who is the 2nd to Eugene in your scenario. Or do you think Eugene would have figured it all out before the assassination attempt took him out along with Makanai? Because the problem is Chad (Eugene) and Makanai are both out of the picture which takes out direct communication. None of the Tekkadan Members have business experience so they are still dependent on whoever Teiwaz sends. Eugene was never shown good at that stuff. Biscuit and Orga were the only ones with any decency at doing numbers. Biscuit is Dead. Orga is not running a branch.

Not sure what your point is? More risk More Reward. It goes totally bad because McGillis inexplicably stops planning at Baal despite knowing Rustal has the largest fleet and would never surrender.

Nobliss is her problem. She didn't manage him properly or consider he might try another assassination because she was too busy pining for Mika. She only has the mine thanks to Tekkadan. She has done zilch on Public Opinion or Political Reform. Essentially she has been useless.

[tdx]

@Obelisk ze Tormentor
It's not just mine or Skaddix's view, I've seen plently of people complaining that Orga was going through the same character arc he had already finished in s1. Yet we saw it again and again and again. Biscuit had nothing to do with Orga's inane leadership qualities or his determination, yet these inane things about the character were taken away in this season. The combination of the aformentioned two is not what I call good writing. Looks a lot more like destroying a character's foundations for the plot's convenience and forced drama.

Kudelia's character is destoyed because she could have helped with politicking and maneuvering, could have started helping early on, especially if she cares about Tekkadan so much, but didn't, being reduced to nothing more than an angle of a triangle that I never could conclusively decide was trolling or what, instead of the Maiden of Revolution she's hailed as and actually was in s1. There's literally nothing left in her from the determined girl who tried to save everyone she could and didn't shy away from raising hell in order to do it. Where's her political charisma, fearlessness and determination now? Where are her speeches? Where has it all gone? She had one job, to help Tekkadan with the public opinion, and she failed. No, not failed. Worse: she didn't even try.

[zerosum]

Originally Posted by tdx

They're also guilty of being the same as clueless green rookies, not accounting for the possibility, not being on guard and not protecting their leader. You would think trained experienced soldiers like them would know to guard their leader with their bodies, yet he was the only one who reacted and protected them. They fail, at their role, as soldiers - on all accounts basically.

Yes their all are soldier but dont forget their all are still underage/kids and not super soldier.
Mistakes are normal for human being

Preview for next episode just to raise more 'question mark' not a spoiler stuff.

Now how the hell McGillis/Bael manage go out to space in the first place before face off Fareed/Kimaris Vidar?
Montag Company?

[hwaitaminute]

Honestly this show seems like it's being rushed to the end. And come on seriously, you saved ride?

[Tenzen12]

Damn it... again. Biscuit, Naze, Amida, Lafter and now Orga. I hope hey all are happy in guneam builder heaven ( Though it would by better if Orga survived after all).

Anyway I don't see Nobliss gaining anything by this assassination, neither it fit his style. It was probably Mackey trying hijack Tekkadan and Mika for his goals (or just sacrificing them for same reasons).

[Skaddix]

Originally Posted by zerosum

Yes their all are soldier but dont forget their all are still underage/kids and not super soldier.
Mistakes are normal for human being

Preview for next episode just to raise more 'question mark' not a spoiler stuff.

Now how the hell McGillis/Bael manage go out to space in the first place before face off Fareed/Kimaris Vidar?
Montag Company?

Mistakes are one thing but basic incompetence not so much. They are not rookie soldiers. They are trained. And they are kinda Super Soldiers thanks to AV boosting physical stats. But also because outside of Gjhallahorn they were the most elite fighting force in the Solar System.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

I don't feel the CD was organic. That is the problem.

Agree to disagree then. The development feels natural for me. It feels more....human rather than having MC that we are sure to have positive development in all areas.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Here is the problem who is the 2nd to Eugene in your scenario. Or do you think Eugene would have figured it all out before the assassination attempt took him out along with Makanai? Because the problem is Chad (Eugene) and Makanai are both out of the picture which takes out direct communication. None of the Tekkadan Members have business experience so they are still dependent on whoever Teiwaz sends. Eugene was never shown good at that stuff. Biscuit and Orga were the only ones with any decency at doing numbers. Biscuit is Dead. Orga is not running a branch.

Simple, since Eugene is the smartest member after Biscuit, put him in charge of Earth branch so that Chad can take over Takaki's job. If Eugene got taken out in the bomb, Chad at least can still stand up to Radiche (and Chad's actually capable of using the Ariadne com since Fumitan taught him back in S1) without being intimidated and duped like Takaki. The com is the key factor is Radiche's plan. If Chad has the com, the plan won't work.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Not sure what your point is? More risk More Reward. It goes totally bad because McGillis inexplicably stops planning at Baal despite knowing Rustal has the largest fleet and would never surrender.

The bolded part: exactly. But remember that Tekkadan has an easy choice back then to just manage their large mine and getting richer and richer and more powerful although in a slower pace. But nope, Orga chose to risk everything to be Mars leaders.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Nobliss is her problem. She didn't manage him properly or consider he might try another assassination because she was too busy pining for Mika. She only has the mine thanks to Tekkadan. She has done zilch on Public Opinion or Political Reform. Essentially she has been useless.

How can she "manage him" when he's the one with the money, power and media? Also, Kudelia didn't know that Nobliss is working together with G-horn at the time so, how can she consider an assassination when even we, the audience, still not sure who the shooters are working for after the fact?

Originally Posted by tdx

@Obelisk ze Tormentor
It's not just mine or Skaddix's view, I've seen plently of people complaining that Orga was going through the same character arc he had already finished in s1. Yet we saw it again and again and again. Biscuit had nothing to do with Orga's inane leadership qualities or his determination, yet these inane things about the character were taken away in this season. The combination of the aformentioned two is not what I call good writing. Looks a lot more like destroying a character's foundations for the plot's convenience and forced drama.

Are you sure? Because Biscuits' absence was pretty much highlighted in this season, from the start of the season right down to the ED2. His (non)presence almost always looming on Tekkadan.

Originally Posted by tdx

Kudelia's character is destoyed because she could have helped with politicking and maneuvering, could have started helping early on, especially if she cares about Tekkadan so much, but didn't, being reduced to nothing more than an angle of a triangle that I never could conclusively decide was trolling or what, instead of the Maiden of Revolution she's hailed as and actually was in s1. There's literally nothing left in her from the determined girl who tried to save everyone she could and didn't shy away from raising hell in order to do it. Where's her political charisma, fearlessness and determination now? Where are her speeches? Where has it all gone? She had one job, to help Tekkadan with the public opinion, and she failed. No, not failed. Worse: she didn't even try.

Like I said to Skaddix, the press cornering Tekkadan only played a role in IBO just recently. Before it, Tekkadan was hailed as heroes so there was no problem on that part. At the same time, Nobliss who rule the media didn't support Kudelia anymore. And Kudelia is too busy for speeches, and what speeches will do without proof?

[Skaddix]

The funny thing about Kudelia is if they wanted to shift her off stage for most of the season. I would have had her take Makanai up on his offer and use that training and connections to replace dear old dad on Mars. It really annoys me we are never going to see the fallout over that one. Use the half metal mining to fund some orphanages and school lunch programs. Seems easily done to have her moving forward while at the same time getting some tangible reforms done.

Orga has just been stuck in a S1 Loop but instead of rising to the challenge just keeps being full of fail. I mean I don't even remember the last time Orga did something tactically good. I am not asking for Lelouch Levels of perfection here (which is greatly aided by being able to brain hack anyone).

Kudelia is suppose to be the politically savvy one and already knows he has control of the media. She used it to her advantage in S1.

So you want to send the two top brains to Earth? Its Orga, Eugene and Chad. Eugene is the best pilot of ships they have so if they ever had to do ship to ship combat in space he wouldn't be around. Which guess what they did have to ship to ship combat against those Dawn Horizon. Under your plan they don't have Eugene for that at all. You want Orga to predict Radiche being a traitor, Rustal forcing a proxy war and an assisnation attempt. But Kudelia cant predict a guy she knows is in control of the media and has tried assassination before doing it again? How is that fair?

Orga has to take the offer though right? That is a plot advancement thing. And there was no reason to suspect a man who was shown as a grand puppetmaster in S1 would drop the ball so woefully.

You seem to hold Orga to a super high standard while holding Kudelia to a remarkably low one. Oh that reminds me they only had to fight Dawn Horizon Pirates because once Kudelia dropped the ball and didn't handle her political connections.

Its all Orga's Fault. But Kudelia deserves no blame for her poor handling on the Political Front. GTFO.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Anyway I don't see Nobliss gaining anything by this assassination, neither it fit his style.

Really? Other than Jasley, he's the king of having hired goons in suits go out an try to kill people on the streets. Also, considering he has the power to control the media, I can see him having the power to clear the streets of witnesses too. I don't think Macky has the pull to do that. And since of course they specifically mention that "it's too quiet", it means that wasn't a coincidence. Somebody pulled the people and Gjallarhorn soldiers from that street.

[BluePhirePB]

Wow, did not see that coming.

[Skaddix]

Its a massive risk for Macky. Tekkadan could very well fall apart and be useless.

Rustal on the other hand is trying to paint Tekkadan as traitors. Assassinating traitors is an utter waste.

Process of elimination means Nobliss is the only one. It fits his MO and he is the only one with a major gain. Rustal is liable to win anyway. Macky is low on clout.

[Ernietheracefan]

If Macky is responsible for Orga's assassination, I wouldn't be surprised if Gaelio decided to fight alongside Mika..

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Ernietheracefan

If Macky is responsible for Orga's assassination, I wouldn't be surprised if Gaelio decided to fight alongside Mika..

Why would Gaelio care about Orga? I don't even think he really knows Orga. They've never met. Also, Gaelio's style doesn't mesh with Mika's. Macky and Mika do well together since they are both in sync but also complete opposites.

All Gali lives for is to kill Macky. He's basically said that this episode.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Orga noo! At least he died after the plan was formulated. Seeing that the episode was 'promise' and it involves Orga/Mika promise, I knew he was done for when Mika asks him to bring the gun back.

And Iok, man, I love this character. His heart is in the right place, and I can see why he is very popular with his subordinates. Just too bad his execution isn't exactly great lol.

He casually ordered the massacre of surrendering non combatants and never felt the slightest remorse at causing the deaths of civilians through his carelessness with the MA. That goes beyond stupidity (of which he is also guilty). So no, his heart isn't in the right place in the least.