2014-01-20, 07:26 | Link #21 | |||||
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In some of these anime shows people fail spectacularly in their attempts to change the world. In others, they succeed. But the fact is, they honestly attempt it. Watching characters have hopeful agency can be inspirational even when they fail or somewhat miss the mark. Quote:
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2014-01-20, 07:30 | Link #22 |
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But the point was not really to compare U.S. American TV with Japanese TV. It was probably more to compare "Western TV" (i.e. what "we" can watch in TV) with anime (what this topic is about). The Japanese reality shows are probably as much a copypasta of the U.S. American shows, as the European ones are.
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2014-01-20, 09:45 | Link #23 | |
Me at work
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First I have to ask, is the reason Dr Who hasn't been mentioned for sci-fi because it's british?
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And it's not that characters are really cynical in other shows I watch but rather that "changing the world" isn't really something that comes up on ncis or hawaii 5-0
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2014-01-20, 10:39 | Link #24 | |
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But while the current Doctor Who is new it is still built upon the rich history & nostalgia of the original. I wonder if any current series will have the longevity of Doctor Who.
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2014-01-20, 11:54 | Link #25 | |
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Still Stargate (though IMO it lost quite a bit of impact ever since Richard Dean Anderson quit), my favorite Sci-Fi series was, among others, axed. And new ones? I am still waiting for such...
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2014-01-20, 12:11 | Link #26 |
sleepyhead
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I don't like anime. I like good stories, humor and so forth and anime has some of them. That said if they were in any other medium I would probably like them there too, if I felt I got the same quality; so the fact it's anime doesn't really make much of a difference. I like painting as in the practice since I occasionally paint things, I like writing since I occasionally write things, I don't have an interest in animating things so liking anime from the perspective of liking the practice doesn't make sense.
It's the same as saying you like steam or you like [insert console], the source of the fondness for them is merely your like of the "features" or "the games" not the hardware or the distributor, unless you have a hand or interest in the field. Of course it's much easier to generalize to the lowest common denominator just like how we might generalize based on generations, nationality, etc. Lazy senteces for the win.
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2014-01-20, 12:45 | Link #27 | |
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I had an interest in animation as long as I can remember. It has the most creative freedom of any visual medium as the director and writers can literally do anything they can think off. Particularly in fantastic genres like sci-fi and fantasy it still retains a significant advantage.
I lost a bit of interest in western animation with the rise of Genndy Tartakovsky (influenced) shows. That type of humor doesn't work for me. Quote:
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2014-01-20, 12:58 | Link #28 | |
sleepyhead
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I could swear just watching 3min of some of the recent nonsense felt like it gave me permanent brain cancer.
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2014-01-20, 14:56 | Link #29 | |||||||
Boo, you whore
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I guess it depends on how you interpret that message: Quote:
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I dunno...ok, maybe I should have specified "moeblobs" like, well, Nagisa from Clannad is a good example. They feel to me like they are way too easy to manipulate, sometimes (ok, often) way too clumsy and too willing to give in to MC's demands in "romance shows". Yes, I find it cute once in a while, but I think we have way too much of it. Dunno, I just want to see more characters like, hell, you know, your favorite blue-haired magical girl who isn't afraid of flipping people over when they deserve it (One of the reasons why I liked Madoka so much (and hell, SHAFT in general) is that the characters had rather distinct personalities compared to other anime characters, with the exception of Madoka herself and even Madoka is pretty distinct when you look at it. Contrast this with, say, most of KyoAni's girls outside of Haruhi/Lucky Star/Full Metal Panic which all have that similar "moe" feel.) Or hell, more Kirinos. Those are fine too. Quote:
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2014-01-20, 16:15 | Link #30 | |||
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Have you read what people have wrote about the Madoka: Rebellion movie here on Anime Suki? Plenty of people don't think that any of the characters "turned evil" in the end. I myself don't think that anybody turned evil in Madoka: Rebellion. I may not necessarily agree with what certain characters did in that movie, but that doesn't mean I think either of them are evil. You're basically right about Death Note and Fate/Zero, but I think those contain useful themes. In fact, Death Note is basically a morality play about the dangers of developing a big ego and becoming overly "the ends justify the means" in one's view of the world. As for NGE... Well, there's all sorts of interpretations on that timeless classic. Some cynical, others not so much. Quote:
In any event, here's my argument... In the first situation that you listed, there can be helpful lessons about how not to go about trying to change the world. In the second situation that you listed, there are no lessons to be learned, just pure hopelessness. So the first situation is potentially more constructive/helpful than the second situation, so in my view, the first situation is less depressing. I'll leave it at that. Your stance on moe is pretty clear, and thank you for elaborating on it.
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2014-01-20, 16:49 | Link #31 |
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I like anime for a number of reasons.
Being intested in Japanese culture beforehand helps a lot with understanding some references, as even professional subbers can miss out on some details. I do like comedy a little quirkier than most people, & a lot of anime seems to ramp up the quirk factor, especially Studio Shaft. Also being nostalgic for 1980s cartoons, when a fair amount of anime made it to the UK, & quite a lot of Japanese studios were animating cartoons written elsewhere. |
2014-01-20, 17:06 | Link #32 | |
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His logic goes something like this: Japanese defeat stripped the nation of its identity (well, this has been going on before that), the post-war generation, the baby boomers, propagated this defeatism to their children, now all of a sudden you have a new generation on your hands without any real sense of meaning to their lives and drive. But even these people are driven by the need to survive. Lacking proper national or community values, people formed their own little islands and started relying on their own sense of justice. Hence you get characters like Light who disregard everything the law says and kills people, even those who are close to him, because they don't share his sense of justice. So as much as it can be construed as a warning, the work is also wallowing in the state of it all. Also, personally I think a lot of positivism in Japanese media is driven by a force of habit. Perhaps there once was a time when Japan could honestly be positive about their future, but with so much shit hanging over their head right now, it seems like the whole ganbatte culture is there to lie to themselves. I realized this when NHK World was showcasing Touhoku youth that tried to revitalize one local scissor-manufacturing industry by repurposing scissors for stuff other than cutting paper. Scissors. I wish I could show it here, the whole thing was just depressing to watch. No matter how much effort they put into that initiative, while it is commendable, it was also a waste of time. But hey, at least the show got people all teary. |
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2014-01-20, 17:23 | Link #33 | ||
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Spoiler for Madoka Movie 3 Spoilers:
Also, you could say the same thing about Death Note as you can about Breaking Bad: BB is more evil, I guess, but it's also basically ego and "ends justify means" view of the world. Quote:
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2014-01-21 at 00:42. Reason: corrected spoiler tags |
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2014-01-20, 17:32 | Link #34 |
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I don't think it can it's possible generalise western works as cynical and Japan as optimistic. Unless somoene bring some statistic here, that said I do think anime sometimes has tendences pit idealism against cynism and make quite interesting spectacle of it. I find it far more realistic than shows that are either pitch black or snow white, even if anime in question isn't realistic overaly.
But If I said I like anime for that it would be incorrect as there is plenty animes that lack such quality and I still love them. So if I should say general reason for my love it's all about it's format: Western serials are (with few exception) either purely episodic or going for mega arcs with more plot threads that it can handle (Lost, Heroes ect, BSG...). In other hand most animes has enclosed and interconnected plot explored in clearly set number of episodes which allow concentrate both on characters and story itself. Yeah, I don't watch long-runners (with exception of Space brothers ), thoug I can read them as manga sometimes. Last edited by Tenzen12; 2014-01-20 at 17:47. |
2014-01-20, 17:35 | Link #35 |
He Without a Title
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Location: The land of tempura
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Let me join in the fray then. I'll ignore all the discussion regarding cynicism since I'm in no way literarily equipped to take part in it (even if I appreciate reading about it)
Like others mentioned in this thread I turned to anime in search of something different. I begun with the space operas and other far future scifi shows. I've always been a fan of the genre but western TV has basically left me with nothing ever since Stargate tried to go all dark and edgy with Stargate Universe. Atlantis was growing a little stale in it's final seasons but at least it still had that old-school SciFi adventure feel that's been completely lost ever since the bleakness of the Battlestar Galactica remake basically became the standard for north-american science fiction. I mean it was a good show for a couple of seasons but it was the complete antitesis of everything that made me grow up to love the genre: that sense of optimism, of looking into a better tomorrow where the human race has used technology to improve itself and reach new unknowns to explore... SciFi was, to me, the dreams of tomorrow but nowadays all I see out of the genre is nightmares of destruction. Doctor Who is actually the only live-action SciFi I still watch mostly due to the optimism of the Doctor and his unwavering belief in the goodness of all living creatures. How does this tie to anime? Simple: anime still gives me a Yamatto 2199 from time to time. True that some of the better shows in the genre lately (Shinsekai Yori and Psycho-Pass) are rather bleak, yes, but even they ended up having slight glimmers of hope for humanity. Then there are shows like Tamayura or Hidamari Sketch that warm my heart, the over the top stuff like JoJo's Bizarre Adventures or the mecha action of a Valvrave. Anime keeps providing me with the type of stories I enjoy so I keep watching. That's about it. To top it off I enjoy watching interesting art styles and animation like what Space Dandy had in the second half of his first episode, the insane quality of Redline or the trademark Akiyuki Shinbo style that Shaft keeps using. To be fair the British are also able to put out some rather visually interesting shows. I still remember how impressed I was with the first season of Sherlock. Visually it had some rather interesting touches I believe. Anyway I should really look more into what the brits are doing nowadays. They were at least responsible for the best TV comedies I've ever seen. PS: and before I forget. How can one not be a fan of a genre capable of giving us Girls und Panzer? I couldn't imagine how such a silly premise could turn out to be such a damned good show. It almost has fan service written all over it and yet there's virtually none of that in the show proper. Truly one of the most surprisingly good shows I've seen in quite a while.
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2014-01-20, 19:04 | Link #36 |
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You probably should go back and edit the post I'm replying to here. You're referring to specific characters now, and that's spoilerrific.
Spoiler for Madoka Magica Movie 3 spoilers:
I will say, though, that it's not that anime doesn't have some cynical works. I'm sure it does. It's that anime strikes me as having way more positivism works (thanks for the word, cyth ) than what modern American entertainment does. There's a lot of anime shows over the last few years that I would call "uplifting" or "life-affirming".
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2014-01-20, 19:20 | Link #37 | |||
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Spoiler for Missed the point...guess I should have elaborated:
In all honesty, this post kinda reaffirms what I said in a much better way than I could put it when writing at 5am on coffee: Quote:
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2014-01-20, 19:41 | Link #38 |
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Honestly, I don't agree with Tenzen12 there.
Look, I have seen countless optimistic and/or life-affirming anime works. Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Gurren Lagann Gundam Seed Love Live!: School Idol Project Tari Tari Hanasaku Iroha Mari-Mite Saki Chuunibyou Free! Clannad Kanon Little Busters! Hyouka Moshidora K-On! Tamayura And I could probably go on all day here, but I'll spare people the tediousness of that. What does American TV have that can match-up to all of that when it comes to being optimistic and embracing positivism?
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2014-01-20, 20:31 | Link #39 | |
Boo, you whore
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Of course, I guess this article kinda makes my argument somewhat null, but on the other hand I don't think most anime capture Japanese audiences much either.... http://variety.com/2013/biz/news/jap...ce-1200752940/
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2014-01-20, 21:01 | Link #40 | |
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Maybe cynicism is the wrong word. What I mean is that American picture media (TV and Movies) seems filled with: A: Mindless entertainment (sex and violence) that claims to have the good guys win, but you can tell that the creators don't really believe it but are just going through the motions because that's what the formula says to do. (Most any Hollywood blockbuster that isn't based on a previous franchise). Yeah plenty of anime fall into this category too, so I don't count this against either form of media. It's just what happens when people are trying to make money and don't care about the story. B: Endless Avoidance of Responsibility (eg Friends and similar sitcoms). Compare this to something like Bunny Drop. C: The World is crap so give up and be as cruel and corrupt as everyone else. (The "Realistic" "Dramas" and "reality" shows) Dark stuff happens in anime, but good still triumphs. Not because good always wins but because people value it enough that they sacrifice for it. Madoka, NGE, ect all examine this. I don't mind a show that says: "The world is crap" cause I know the truth of it, but I want the show to then say: "Do good anyway." (Which is probably why I hate Code Geass). Maybe a better way to say it is that anime usually still displays faith in human beings, while too much of American media does not. If you've read "The Seven Basic Plots" by Booker you'll understand when I say that American shows seem to have "lost the plot" while anime still tends to follow the true pattern. As for the track for optimism, there actually was a ton of optimism starting in the 80s. The 90s became rather materialistic. 9/11 was a huge shock to the American psyche, then followed by the crash in 2008 which really people had been feeling stretched for several years previous. The depressing thing is that people right now seem to feel helpless, like back in the 70s. Frankly though I think America is having difficulty handling a downturn beyond what the downturn ought to be costing us, due to the trauma of the Great Depression that America has never really gotten over. Ever since the Great Depression the emphasis on your work/income establishing your worth as a person has become rather choking. A similar issue is chocking Japan right now as well (although of course in Japan it dates to the WWII defeat rather then the Depression). Ever since those days both our countries have been living off saved social capital establishing the importance of family and the duties that you need to take to care for your parents and raise children for the future. We haven't really put anything back into that since then and suddenly we are discovering that these things are far more important to our happiness and well being compared to the amount of effort we spend on them. I'm reminded of the Godfather scene when Michael asks his mother if his actions could cause him to lose his family, and she is bewildered "How can you lose your family?" she responds. Yet now we see this happening all around us.
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Last edited by Sackett; 2014-01-20 at 21:19. |
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