2004-06-22, 15:51
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Link #1 |
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Fighting Stupidity
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Stop racing, start caring. Screw competition.
So as I sit here waiting patiently for more episodes of Lunar's Hanada Shounen Shi and Hunter X Hunter, I can't help but wonder why Lunar can work so hard to release Aishiteruze Baby in about a day after airing but not give a rat's ass about these other stalled shows. As far as I can tell, there's only one factor affecting the speed of these releases: a competing group. Judging by the release times of the last few episodes, it would seem that a.f.k.'s been "faster" (as if that means anything) than Lunar more often than not. Now I understand that speed is supposed to be important, but as http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=105 states, they wake up at odd hours to QC releases. IMHO that's not out of love for the anime; that's because they want to be first. Would you really be giving 100% effort at 5AM in the morning? Waking up that early because you "love" the show? Yeah. Competition is a bitch, eh?
Now why would you wake up during the middle of the night to qc an episode of a series and completely ignore two other ones? Is there a correlation between number of groups subbing a series and release speed? Or is all of this just a coincidence? If another group didn't regularly release before Lunar did, I bet you'd be hard pressed to find such "dedication" among the members. And don't think this "phenomenon" is limited to Lunar. Numerous "quality-based" groups are guilty of this crap. Wow, two very good releases within hours of each other! I don't NEED two good subs of Aishiteruze that fast. NOBODY does. It's a waste of resources. At least go joint or something and go back and pick up your stalled series. If you just don't like them anymore (or maybe you never did), drop them. Daphne died a horrid death because of this. Hell, I wish some AJ-like group came along and started speedsubbing these shows just so Lunar would start caring again. Come to think of it, Lunar's release schedule is beginning to resemble AJ's... grab a ton of popular shows and sub them all as fast as possible, finish up the rest when it's convienient/you have competition/never. And I know you can name other groups that do the same thing off the top of your heads. Say you're for speed and that you cater to leeches. Say you're for quality and that you care. But don't say you're for both if your hypocritical actions speak for themselves. Groups need to stop picking up shows for the hell of it; do a show you care about and you'll find the process much more enjoyable and much less of a "competition". It's not a freaking race. The internet doesn't make you more popular when you're hidden behind a splash screen and a clever little moniker. Yes, I'm aware that this is all opinion/speculation. But having been subbing for over a year now, I see how fansubbing is deteriorating. Pre-emptive response to common retorts: 1. "Stop complaining, do it yourself if you think you can do it better." Yes, I sub. I do korean subs. I'm NOT ASKING WHEN THE NEXT EPISODE WILL BE RELEASED. I'm just saying that competition is ruining "real" dedication. 2. "It's free, shut up." Yes, it's free. Free, and wasted, when their efforts could be put to better use on something else (like Hanada or HxH). This is exactly why I admire groups like Live-eviL. Too bad ego is such a powerful thing. |
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2004-06-22, 16:15
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Link #3 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Antwerp area, Belgium, Europa
Age: 48
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this rant is old ...
let the fansubs groups do as they please, fansubbers pick series they want to work on, if you ask them to do shows they don't like because no one else does them, quality isn't likely to increase ... |
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2004-06-22, 16:20
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Link #4 | |
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Fighting Stupidity
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Quote:
It's almost as if everything gets tossed aside when that new Aishiteruze raw comes up on BT because it has to be out FIRST before everything else. If they don't WANT to work on those other shows anymore, DROP THEM. Groups get slow because a) staff leaves b) staff gets slow c) show gets boring and they don't want to do it anymore d) they don't care anymore because they're the only ones subbing it. Looking at all that they picked up for the summer, I'd say Lunar's staff is doing fine. Seeing as how they speed out Aishiteruze, I'd say b's not valid either. That means it's either C or D. Guess which one it is. |
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2004-06-22, 16:30
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Link #5 |
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Daydreamer
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brooklyn
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You do realize that by questioning the benevolent gods that are fansubbers that you will only be told to shut up, stop complaining and a slew of other things because fansubbers are doing it for free and you have no right to have any opinion of what and how they do anything.
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2004-06-22, 16:55
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Link #6 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Let's face it Aishiteraze Baby is way cuter than Hanada Shounen Shi and Hunter X Hunter. So of course it's going to come out sooner, it's got nothing to do with competition or whatever. Two groups doing the same title is hardly 'competition', when popular titles have 5 or more groups doing them. That's 'competition'. When it comes down to it, between a super-cute thing and a not-at-all-cute thing, the super-cute thing takes priority. Live-eviL is evil, they're not on the same scale as a.f.k. or lunar or similar groups. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Evil people are willing to go a lot farther than goody-goody-two-shoes people to get what they want done. Believe me http://forum.live-evil.org/YaBB.cgi?...num=1075180199 http://forum.live-evil.org/YaBB.cgi?...num=1086781583 You tell me. How many other groups will go that far to sub a series. |
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2004-06-22, 17:23
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Link #7 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Aoeuidhtns.
I actually agree with SpikeS095 ... his logic isn't flawed and makes perfect sense. Stop giving him the unoriginal replies that have no thought to them.
But if there's more than one group doing a show, then it's competition. Enough said, really. |
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2004-06-22, 20:05
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Link #9 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Maybe when you get on a commuter jet you think 'we don't really need 2 engines, that's a waste of precious resources and meteriels, burns extra fuel, bad for the environment, and creates extra noise. Why do we need 2 engines when the plane flies great with just one.' But most people don't think that way, can you name even one passenger / commuter jet with a single engine? They don't exist. |
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2004-06-22, 20:26
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Link #10 | |
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 40
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Quote:
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2004-06-22, 21:33
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Link #11 |
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What? I am washed up!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, England
Age: 39
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Heh, I'll expand and say:
Who works on these shows? A fansub group is compromised of more than one person after all. The people that work on Show Y maybe be completely different than the people that work on Show X, and Show X's staff may just happen to be very slow. While I do see some merrit in your argument - and the issue annoys me with A-E, pumping some series out quickly, but letting other uber l33t series (Tenshi Na Konomaiki!!!) stall - but we just can't generalise. As we see with Outlaw, there was an internal staff problem. A fansub group is not one whole - it is broke down into many people. And the gears may be well oiled for one project, and not for another. Sad as this is, this is how it is. It is simply not a case of saying "the translator should work on the show that is stalled". Well, for starters: does he WANT to work on the stalled show? Perhaps he is not a fan of it, perhaps he's already low enough on time doing a show he really wants to translate. Sure, I'm sure in many groups, the translator could be ORDERED to work on it, but well, that's never a good thing in our context -_- Although, I as I said. I do see some merit in your argument, but as I also said: we simply cannot generalise without futher information from specific groups. Maybe in certain groups this argument is in full merit. Perhaps as I've explain in other it is not. From reading Lunar's forum, aparently Daphne stalled because it was VERY hard to translate at points. And we just have to consider what the translator wants to do with his time. Slug through a hard to translate episode, or breeze through another easily translateable episode of over subbed show Y? Anyway, this doesn't apply to some groups. A certain AB timer would be just as lazy if WeSuck was on UPSep16 or UPSep783 :P Well, anyway. I wish Outlaw luck with his Hunter X Hunter project anyway. I know how much hard work working with other people can be sometimes, heh... Anyway, there's my 2 cents. Throw it, or consume it. Edit: I noticed I haven't flamed anyone in this post. I shall retify this now: PLZ DIE!!!!!! Thank you very much. |
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2004-06-22, 21:57
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Link #13 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-06-22, 22:05
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Link #14 |
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Crazi Male Neko!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Where you want me to
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Hmm..... intresting...
 "Stop racing, start caring. Screw competition" It is true that this is done free, and if you dont like it... sucks for you... But also it is as you say a waste of resources. Imagine this: Some odd reason all the subbers getogether and form some kind of Union where they all work together to sub some series. Then comes the question of, do we give a rats @$$ about anything because there is NO competition out there that can best us. if anyone try to compete, we have the resources and the people to out perform them at any time. Once the competitior is crushed, they can go back to having the efficency of one fansubber. If you screw competition, you basically have one huge ass monopoly... <-- and you wouldnt like that. --> But this idea could work in theory... but the probablity of finding people who can handle a large scale fan subbing operation like this *without any legal concerns from companyies* while earning little to no cash is going to be hard. It would be a great idea if there was some kind of like "fan-organizer" that hands out the assignements to different fan subbers, then send them to other fan subbers for translations checks and stuff. ... This is just a thought ... i doubt a lot of people out there would like it ^^ IF... fan subbing on this level generated the money they need to live off of, then the ego competition would be lowered while they strive to introduce other series or at least cut down the ridiclous amounts of fan subbers working on one series. I dont think someone who is doing this for free would tell his/her boy/girlfriend that he can't go out because hes busy fan subbing something *not paided*. If he/she does then you are really truely honest and *hug* i luv you  BTW: IF Airplanes only had 1 engine... would you REALLY want to ride it?  lol i wouldnt even ride it if someone paid me 1 million dollars.  SirCanealot: You like flames eh? *Pours crude oil on it* turn it up >=)This is an intresting post... sorry if meh ideas don't connect that well... I'm thinking any typing while half awake xD While I'm posting. my position on the fan subbers is: -I dont care about the speed, I do download the first one available out there on the torrents. but if it really sucks in quality or translation i would delete it and save a better translation done by another group. -About the quality of translation, this is a hard one... Since I don't under stand japanese i wouldn't be able to tell if translations of some shows are good or bad. So far all group translations I can understand well and connect with whats going on in the show. I do favor Lunar's translation of KGnE tho But if there was some Chinese shows translated into English... Then i could check out how well their translation goes... So far the few chinese to english shows i seen are decent ^^;;...Well this is my 2 cents... i have a feeling lots of people going to flame/stupidfy me 
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2004-06-23, 07:15
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Link #17 |
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Lunar Translator
Join Date: Mar 2003
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(I wasn't planning on posting anything here... but I was asked by a few people to say something in lunar's defence... so I'll post this message I orignally sent to Spike, with a small addition/edit)
--------- As lunar's founder (and head translator) , I'll give you a fair reply... Though I really don't like people attacking my group, and would prefer if they didn't, I'll say what I think about your question(s)... You said, if I remember, that you had worked on fansubbing, so you must know how the process works... I'm sure you also can understand why certain things can happen resulting in delays... such as a disappearing member... So, You mentioned Hanada... A project that has sorta died. You do look and realize that we did it as a joint with another group, SnF (Seikai no Fansubs)... Well, sadly, SnF died about 4-5 months ago... and left us hanging. We at lunar did not want to DROP the hanada project, though the group providing the raws AND the translations suddendly disappeared. (They lost their translators and the founder disbanded the group)... I feel very hurt when you blame us at Lunar, who were left hanging, for the delays. For the past months we've been working hard on trying to find decent raws to the old series, as well as try to find replacements for the positions that SnF were doing... While I can say in a positive light that in the last 2 weeks we've had some developments, and the project seems to be starting to move again, it's still going slow, and our staff our VERY busy. (We all have real lives, real jobs, and real commitments...) You also mentioned Daphne... (which is licensed I might add, so we woudln't have finished it anyway, so it's somewhat of a moot point)... Anyway, Daphne was *my* pet project, my own translations, and run by me. (as is aishiteru ze baby)... Due to complications in school, and huge projects, plus the fact that it was very difficult for me to translate, I got many weeks behind. I certainly WANTED to finish, and planned to once summer started... but life knocked me one and took away one of my series when ADV announced their licence early this month... Why did I pick up Aishiteru ze baby? Because I really enjoy the series, just as much as I enjoyed Daphne... not to mention I can translate an ep in about an hour, sometimes two. It took very little time commitment on my busy school life and seemed like a good choice. As to why we don't joint with AFK... that's a *VERY* good question. Why we didn't joint, to start, was I had no clue THEY were doing the project... and I'm guessing they were unaware that WE were doing the project. Why we don't joint NOW? I don't know. I openly said in many forums, including this one, that I think they do a great job, and thus leaving the joint option WIDE open for them.... and yet they have never come to ask me about it... (and I can say, with honesty, that if offered a joint with them on the project, with fair terms of course, I'd be more than willing to accept... but It'd feel rude of me to go ask them, without knowing their feeling on it, especially after 11 eps) The final thing you mentioned, the I think warrents explaning is HxH... I did *not* approve of this project, and it was picked up and started by our encoder at the time... It seemed useless to sub a series that two groups had already done, and I made my view clear... but said encoder felt that he wanted to do it again, in high quality, and so it was started... Well, turns out, after about 8 eps, he insults and greatly hurts the translator working on the series (FOR HIM!), and said translator then refused to work with him anymore. (I would do the same... no one deserves that type of verbal abuse)... as such, we had no one to translate it, and the project died... Since, said encoder has QUIT the group, and taken his raws with him... so even if we wanted to continue, it's not an option at this point... In closing, you say we shouldn't race... and I agree whole heartedly! I once made the stronge statement to a newspaper reporter, about fansubbing, when asked the question "What do you think is most important? Speed or quality?" I said something along the lines of "Quality is, and always will be most important. To put quality ANYthing but 1st, would be an insult to the anime itself, as well as its creators!" I hope you understand this... (Reason why we're sometimes fast... because we have a great fun-filled hard working team, and also because I do my best to organize the projects so they moves as fast/fluidly a possible... if you've ever tried to organize a project, much less a whole group, you know how difficult it is... and it's something I take pride in, and do my best at) We sub for love of the anime... not for fans, not for ourselves, not for competition... we think the ANIME deserves the quality work, and we always do our best, reguardless of speed or competition. |
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2004-06-23, 10:36
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Link #18 |
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キズランダム
Join Date: Apr 2003
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SirCanealot: From what I've been told, it's chronic staff shortages that have caused most of the delays for A-E. TnK had no translator for a long time, then got one who did like 1 translation every 4-6 weeks, then he quit and it was a long time again ... I THINK they have another translator now again though. Bakutenshi was kinda ill-fated and never should have had an episode released bc it had low support from both A-E and Keep and then the translator and another went AWOL afaik. Konomini was delayed bc the translator had to move and now she doesnt have access to a computer is what I have heard. Gash Bell got licensed and Planetes I don't know what the hold up is.
A-E doesn't force people to work on series, so if people are busy there isn't usually someone with time to fill in for them. Or it often happens to be the translator whom you can't really fill in for
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2004-06-23, 12:21
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Link #19 |
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What? I am washed up!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, England
Age: 39
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I know AE have had trouble with translators for TnK.
It is a shame in a way that series like Naruto have all the luck, when truely clasic series like TnK are left hanging. There seems to be chronic staff shortages in LOTS of groups. The two groups I'm in are either uber short on staff, or not really over flowing with staff in certain areas. People seem to have more will to sign up and make their own group (and be begging for translators for the next 6 months, haha) than sign onto an already existing group. Imo, it's a bit of a sad state really, where some of the truely good and quality groups are left hanging while dozens of others spring up around them (not saying new the new groups aren't good; it's just that I've seen enough trash before and it's really ruined my viewing experience, so I'm very wary). This shortage of translators is getting even more nutty. I feel more tempted every day to take a course in Japanese, so I can at least help out the groups I'm in a little -_- |
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2004-06-23, 12:43
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Link #20 | |
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Onii-sama daisuki!
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Quote:
I remembered when I was working on Tenshi no Shippo Chu, Influx had problems finding translators that would consistently translate the series. We ended up scraping under the table (as often said by Ayanami) to get translators. Here are some of the reactions I got when I ask people to do translation.... "If the rest of the series is going to be like that, I don't want to do this." "I'm sick of hearing all of those high voices." "AAAAUGHHHH!" So, yeah.... we ended up scraping for translators. It's weird, but I would say that translators sometimes are a capricious lot. The moment you force them to do something they hate, you can say good-bye to them.  - Perdita |
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Fansubber
