Is Anime being abused?

[Archon_Wing]

I don't think it's fair to compare classic works to random anime of today.

We should always be aware of the nostalgia bias. For every great show we treasure, there are probably a few dozen pieces of crap. But with anime being readily available on the internet today, every crappy obscure series gets found and picked apart.

While I am not a big fan of "moe/tsundere trash" mass productions, I understand that not everyone wants to watch what I watch, and just because I don't like something doesn't mean it should go away. I do however make fun of them though. I also hate pretentious wannabe philosopher series just as much.

And sometimes, you can't always judge a book by its cover. In fact, I hated all my favorite shows at one point or another before I gave them another chance because I had dismissed them as being in that large pile of crap.

[alamarco]

Originally Posted by Theowne

Fanservice doesn't mean "sexual situations or a sex scene". It means sexual content which doesn't have any direct relevance what's going on in the anime and doesn't contribute anything to the story.

Hollywood sex scenes are relevant? You have action movies and in middle somewhere is a sex scene which has no relevance at all.

It just seems like you only hear people complaining about anime, and not Hollywood.

Originally Posted by Eater of All

You know, it's possible to not watch it and still hate it. Throwing the "don't watch it" line only attacks the person and not the topic itself.

I don't necessarily agree with that. It's a simple solution to the problem at hand. There are a ton of people out there who like this sort of anime. It's not going to go away anytime soon, so instead of focusing on something you hate, focus on the things you like. Isn't that what makes people happy? Do the stuff you enjoy because worrying about something you hate will only cause more grief.

[FireChick]

......sorry. Can someone close the topic please? I'm sorry for JUST expressing my opinion. >_< *sigh* Why is it that EVERY SINGLE time I express my opinion on something, even if it's something SO TINY and not worth ranting about, I always end up making people start up a big political controversy, getting mistaken for something bad, or simply get yelled at? Even when I don't mean to cause an uproar? I wish I was mute...

[0utf0xZer0]

I do agree with the OP on one point: there's many anime where I end up thinking "man, couldn't this studio have done something good?". That includes stuff like Kanokon. However, it also includes stuff like Kurogane no Linebarrel. In neither case did I dislike the shows for their fanservice. I disliked the shows because they were just plain awful.

However, I think it's clear through reading some of firechick's post history that her problem with these shows isn't so much that the shows themselves suck, it's that they use sexual material as a major selling point. While she's entitled to her opinion... I like some sexual charged material in my anime, thank you very much, be it subtle - such as what you find certain romance anime like Clannad or EF - or something more explicit like Goshoushuu-sama Ninomiya-kun. I guess I just fail to see why we should single the ecchi genre out as something absolutely horrible.

I also have a major problem with the idea that 70% of anime is ecchi-oriented material. Yeah, there's a lot of low brow comedy that's quite servicy, but there's no way that it's 70% of the stuff out there. Even the aforementioned bishoujo and seinen genres offer plenty of choices that don't blatantly use sex as a marketting technique.

Originally Posted by Sackett

What bothers me is when all this fan-service junk spills over into a show with a decent plot.

I'm curious as to which anime you're thinking of here. While there have been exceptions, most of the shows I've seen that I would consider to have really good plots are pretty subtle with their fanservice.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by FireChick

......sorry. Can someone close the topic please? I'm sorry for JUST expressing my opinion. >_<

Yeah, it's this kind of stuff that starts up flame wars and such. I understand you just wanted to express your opinion, but whenever you voice an opinion, there will always be others to counter it.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by FireChick

......sorry. Can someone close the topic please? I'm sorry for JUST expressing my opinion. >_< *sigh* Why is it that EVERY SINGLE time I express my opinion on something, even if it's something SO TINY and not worth ranting about, I always end up making people start up a big political controversy, getting mistaken for something bad, or simply get yelled at? Even when I don't mean to cause an uproar? I wish I was mute...

I don't want to sound harsh, but a couple points:
a) Moe/fanservice is one of the biggest controversies in the anime fanbase, and Animesuki tends to attract people who are into current anime rather than the kind of people who think modern anime is crap. You might want to take a lesson from that about knowing your audience.
b) From what I've seen, the person who got most worked up about this topic is you.

[Sasano]

Originally Posted by FireChick

......sorry. Can someone close the topic please? I'm sorry for JUST expressing my opinion. >_< *sigh* Why is it that EVERY SINGLE time I express my opinion on something, even if it's something SO TINY and not worth ranting about, I always end up making people start up a big political controversy, getting mistaken for something bad, or simply get yelled at? Even when I don't mean to cause an uproar? I wish I was mute...

The problem I saw was that you were being to assertive, if you merely made a topic to "discuss this issue" and then planted you're personal opinion then perhaps you would have gotten the responses you were looking for.But when you express you're opinions as facts in such an assertive form you're bound to get a lot of counter-response.

Also this is a discussion forum, and you presented people with what seemed as poorly informed assertion instead of an opinion so of course people are gonna whant to say something.Personally I don't think anyone here is really flamming you a lot of us can understand were you're coming from BUT in my honest opinion if you're gonna bring out an argument you should be prepared to support it against an apposition, seems you gave up pretty easily as soon as you got overwhelmed.

Personally I don't think its a bad topic to have an argument about but the way you brought it in lacked any real merits

[FireChick]

b) From what I've seen, the person who got most worked up about this topic is you.

That and what caused me to be worked up about it is...well, THIS.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...nime-green-lit

I know I should've ignored it, but a girl wanting to start a club that favors undergarments?!? Not good! Can someone close the topic please? I'm pretty much angry at myself for...pretty much having an uncontrollable voice!

[Midonin]

Odd and bizarre clubs are almost the standard in the unique version of Japan that the anime spectrum embodies. If Nayu wants to start one for underwear, what's so wrong with that? Natsuki in Mai-HiME also collected panties, and as long as she's not airing her dirty laundry in public...it's just a manga/TV show. Just because it's on the air for one cour is not going to end the world.

[Duo Himura]

I would say that the problem is, as others have said, that you're loading down the word "anime." It's a medium, nothing more, and if the majority of what's being made is shameless, derivative crap... well, that's pretty much par for the course.

Look at American comics. There's a constant downpour of borderline soap opera garbage that creates continuities that even people who follow these things regularly probably don't understand anymore, and then you get something fantastic like a Sandman (Neil Gaiman's, of course--and that was in the 90s, when most comics were trying way too hard to be "dark" without realizing that what made Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns great was the improved storytelling), or anything by Alan Moore, or even the more recent (/more fun and not necessarily as "meaningful") Atomic Robo.

Is the fanservice in anime a bit disturbing to those of us who "expect more from the medium"? Sure. But not so much moreso than television networks trying to sell their shows by describing them as "sexy."

Perhaps a better way of looking at this topic--as much as this isn't a "recent" thing, does the fact that recent -mainstream- shows seem to be selling themselves on fanservice moreso than they have in the past hurt anime's image? Particularly in America, where concerned parents are some sort of God-entity for stomping down on free speech? Anime companies are certainly getting much more cautious about labeling these sorts of things... I haven't particularly heard of another case of something like Narutaru/Shadow Star, where they marketed one of the darkest series ever with keywords like "adventure" and "excitement," on the back cover.

Anyway, what do people think about that? Do we American anime fans have some 'splaining to do, or are we safe in our niche market status? Personally, I suppose if /b/ can continue to exist unchecked there's not much chance of the relatively tame stuff to come out of Japan getting over-scrutinized... though if anyone licenses Akikan I would bet good money that there WILL be a feminist uprising of some sort. That series sounded like the most chauvinistic thing in the world from just its synopsis...

[Theowne]

Originally Posted by alamarco

Hollywood sex scenes are relevant? You have action movies and in middle somewhere is a sex scene which has no relevance at all.

It just seems like you only hear people complaining about anime, and not Hollywood.

That's because this is an anime forum.

Go to a movie forum, and you will hear many people talking about the decline of Hollywood.

[Midonin]

The general thought pattern seems to be that the past was always better, but since the past (which was at one point the present) is also always worse than whatever came before, it seems the new usually gains respect by being "old-school", but too much old leads to accusations of no new ideas, but trying new ideas usually leads to them being derided for being not as good as the old ideas, which leads to something that is ultimately tough to wrap one's head around and in fact leads to nobody going nowhere.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by FireChick

I don't mind simple fantasy ones or quiet slice-of-life titles or simple romance stories or murder mysteries or magical girl anime or supernatural stories about demons and spirits any of the stuff JUST as long as they ARE NOT infested with the stuff which I feel has made anime feel abused and made popular in the WRONG way.

The wrong way? Are you saying there's a right way to like anime? If so, what is it?

edit: Anime first and foremost is a commercial medium. It isn't some pure expression of artistic talent. The purpose of anime is making money. Artistic merit comes a distant second. Anime isn't being abused, it's doing what it's always done, trying to make money.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Moe/fanservice is one of the biggest controversies in the anime fanbase, and Animesuki tends to attract people who are into current anime rather than the kind of people who think modern anime is crap.

I'm both "into" current anime and think that most of it is crap. Most popular entertainment is crap since it has no pretensions of being artistic; it's just there to make money. I'm sure that was true when Shakespeare was writing as well; it's just that the crap hasn't survived the test of time.

On the subject at hand, I'm not alone among AS members in thinking that the industry has taken a turn for the worse over the past couple of years. The range of subject matter has narrowed greatly and seems largely designed to sell more hugpillows to 20-yo Japanese otaku. I'm down to just a couple of shows each season, and I don't expect to see things change much until the Japanese economy turns around. When money's scarce, only shows with a solid expected revenue stream will get the green light. In the anime world that means fanservice; in Hollywood it means explosions and violence.

Still that doesn't mean there aren't shows worth watching like Kemono no Souja Erin, Guin Saga, or Genji. And if there isn't anything you want to see in the current season, there sure are a lot older series that are worth your while. I'd suggest browsing the thread I linked to above to get some ideas.

[Zippicus]

My 2 cents...

I don't think right and wrong are terms that should be used when describing entertainment media. I don't even really like using terms like good and bad since everyone has a different opinion. You know the old saying, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Rather than making a fuss over things you don't like it's probably a healthier course of action to focus on things that you do like.

[Shadow Kira01]

Looking for some good animes to watch? I got some very good recommendations which even cover some of the topics you like to see:

Death Note: A twisted story of justice and tyranny in which the protagonist tries to create his own world where crimes do not exist as that he kills every one of them along with suspects, building a world in which many people would love to live in. However, at the same time.. There are many who do not agree with such a view as that it is obviously problematic, especially if you compare his justice with that of a handful of nations, it seems to match equally. Under the banner of justice, killing people that threatens the regime, in this case Yagami Light will result in bloodshed. Generally, you can compare Yagami Light with Iran, North Korea, China, and Russia as that their views are somewhat similar. However, the anime isn't really politically-themed.

Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children: The story takes place after the end of FFVII. And as many may have already realized that the story of FFVII like any other Final Fantasy story is politically-themed. The main characters of FFVII, Cloud and Tifa along with their comrades are members of AVALANCHE, a terrorist organization that seeks to abolish nukes by methods of terrorism, such as setting bombs to nuclear plants to cause mass destruction because they were forced to live in the slums (sort of like the people residing in Middle East) and thus, they wanted to change things. However, the CG anime doesn't feature of any this. Instead, there is some battles that feature characters from the game in streaming CG. Pretty impressive!!!

Growlanser IV: Wayfarer of the Time: This is no more than a promotional ova for the game. The story is generally about the female protagonist taking the task of maintaining peace and order by preventing an uprising by the nobles. The prince took the side of the nobles as that he was deceived along with other members of the nobles because the leader of the operation had only told them bits and pieces of information, as well as their grand plan. It also features quite a few cameos of protagonists from previous series. The term "Growlanser" means "the hero of light" and it is generally the one who brings peace to the world during chaotic times. However, like modern times.. Not everyone in the world prefers peace or likes the idea.

Gundam Wing: The story explores the ideals of pacifism in a way that bear resemblances with the Growlanser series. It starts off with the mysterious Gundam pilots committing acts of terrorism against multiple nations around the world that possess advance military technology as that they are threats to peace and prosperity. Generally, this is the template in which earlier episodes of Gundam 00 was based on. However, the story that took place afterwards are totally different. The anime has about 50 episodes and it explores different perspectives and reality of pacifist ideals. In the end, it is realized that true pacifism cannot succeed with doing it at gunpoint. Generally, the only way to protect people in the colonies from the elites and the only way to prevent war and terrorism is to kill everyone that opposes this very ideal of true pacifism and bloodstain their own hands. Of course, the task is difficult and thus, as long as a few people are willing to get their hands bloody red, true pacifism will succeed nonetheless.

Nabari no Ou: This is a tale of modern ninja living in Japan while having a real world occupation as a disguise to prevent other people of the world of Nabari to know who they are and kill them. This way, they can still carry on with their normal lives and at the same time, continue their missions and objectives of Nabari. In the world of Nabari, there are a few factions of different political ideals. One who values peace, one who values ambition, one who values a flourishing economy, as well as others who enjoys doing nothing but taking the lives of others. However, the story also features BL as that the protagonist and this other guy are always together, whether it means to join one faction and leave another.

ICE: This is a story about a time in the distant future where the male gender race has extincted and that the world is ruled and controlled by women, not mentioning that love and romance are also in the form of GL as that men no longer exist. Will the world turn out to be peaceful as that "since ancient times, women are known to be healers, while men are mostly the destroyers" (originally said by the Red Testament in Xenosaga Episode III). Unfortunately, this perspective is incorrect as depicted in the anime that when women are given power, they will be overwhelmed by ambition and influence to the point that the world become just as chaotic and polluted as any other era.

Rurouni Kenshin: Ishinshishi e no Requiem: A tale of samurai. Its generally a side-story of the main series. Kenshin, the hero of the main series gets bloodstained hands for killing other good people while serving the government to assassin enemies and remove threats.

Sengoku Basara: It is a tale of ambition, courage, and righteousness, as well as loyalty on multiple sides during the warring period of Sengoku. The perspective of the story opposes that of Koei's Sengoku Musou series as that Oda Nobunaga is portrayed as the evil villian, while the main characters are Date Masamune and Sanada Yukimura, as well as their fellow comrades.

****
I can also provide other suggestions if you need more.

Spoiler for response to opening post; long and meaningless:

I understand the perspective of the opening poster but I see it in a slightly different light.

Many animes are politically-themed or rather to say, it is a common practice to utilize anime to spread principles and ideals of politics over the world. However, if you do just that and after awhile, its gets boring and you lose some audiences as that the politics in many mecha series are so obvious nobody is going to talk about it. And thus, is the mecha designs and story which is merely controversial politics enough? Generally, the added content was to keep higher viewer ratings and after awhile, it becomes common practice in which even non-political themed animes feature the same stuff.

More over, you might not realize it but the majority of the non-mecha and non-political themed animes are adaptations of visual novels. It would be strange if they removed the ecchi content as that was what the visual novels were about in the first place. Or perhaps, if they do it like that, they will most likely get complaints and criticism from many anime fans, male and female, which will in turn lower viewer ratings which is most important to the production of an anime.

The topics you mentioned are quite good as essay topics for it doesn't pass as okay in the anime community. Most likely is that the topics you mentioned will draw controversy as that our views may not be the same. Certainly, the ones doing the anime will enhance the different views, exaggerating it to make it more interesting. If the anime is always tense, nobody is going to watch it.

Rather than that anime is being abused and used in the wrong way, it is that is the essence of what anime truly is in this modern era. Generally, you are seeing it the wrong way. However, I wouldn't blame you as that there are tons of animes every season to feature the content you do not like rather than the ones you do. I support the otaku community and that this is what they like generally implies I do not agree with you.

[Duo Himura]

@Shadow Kira01: I think you have a few of your facts... pretty much dead wrong, no offense.

Many animes are politically-themed or rather to say, it is a common practice to utilize anime to spread principles and ideals of politics over the world.

Well, a lot of anime have an ideology, but that's art in general. However anime are almost always specifically targeted at Japan, so it's pretty uncommon for the intent to be "spreading our political idealism all over the world." But politics and ideology are things that are very common to be picked up as themes, you're right. A lot of them are sort of strawman politics based on something Nietzsche came up with that modern society has long since decried, but hey...

More over, you might not realize it but the majority of the non-mecha and non-political themed animes are adaptations of visual novels.

Not at -all-. Well, recently this has been the case -moreso-, but there still are not nearly as many visual novel-based anime as original productions and anime based on manga, and the vast majority of those are not political or mecha series.

Also, seriously? Requiem for the Isshin Shishi? That's like, the second weakest offering from everything Kenshin (/"Samurai X" *shudder*). And I have a general complaint against Death Note lately, that Light is a poor man's Raskolnikov, though I suppose comparing a shounen manga to a classic of Russian literature isn't entirely fair. But it's sort of like how I can't imagine another creepy, masked terrorist-type who will remain polite and eloquent while killing you that could possibly compete with V of V for Vendetta (the original, not the movie).

Anyway, not to nitpick your suggestions. Though, was the op even asking for recommendations...? If so I could be all over that.

[orion]

Originally Posted by FireChick

That and what caused me to be worked up about it is...well, THIS.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...nime-green-lit

I know I should've ignored it, but a girl wanting to start a club that favors undergarments?!? Not good! Can someone close the topic please? I'm pretty much angry at myself for...pretty much having an uncontrollable voice!

But in a way, it's not too farfetched. Teens and older females do like to buy lingerie. It's a way of making them feel better about themselves. When they get sexually active, it's a way to stimulate their partners.

It was introduced as a slightly H anime. It's pretty obvious which fetish is being targeted here.

A lack of those vending machines must be a reason for interest in this title.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I'm both "into" current anime and think that most of it is crap. Most popular entertainment is crap since it has no pretensions of being artistic; it's just there to make money. I'm sure that was true when Shakespeare was writing as well; it's just that the crap hasn't survived the test of time.

On the subject at hand, I'm not alone among AS members in thinking that the industry has taken a turn for the worse over the past couple of years. The range of subject matter has narrowed greatly and seems largely designed to sell more hugpillows to 20-yo Japanese otaku. I'm down to just a couple of shows each season, and I don't expect to see things change much until the Japanese economy turns around. When money's scarce, only shows with a solid expected revenue stream will get the green light. In the anime world that means fanservice; in Hollywood it means explosions and violence.

Still that doesn't mean there aren't shows worth watching like Kemono no Souja Erin, Guin Saga, or Genji. And if there isn't anything you want to see in the current season, there sure are a lot older series that are worth your while. I'd suggest browsing the thread I linked to above to get some ideas.

First, I'm not denying that there are ASers that don't like moe, fanservice, etc. But my experience on AS is that the forum as a whole is fairly pro-moe - I'm not quite as sure on fanservice - especially when compared to places like ANN. It's only within the past few months I've really started to use my account here, but I was able to foresee the OP getting the response she did.

Second, I'm getting a bit tired of seeing moe scapegoated for the recent declines in show quality. I happen to watch both moe and non-moe anime - and I'd guess I'm watching maybe two-thirds as many shows so far in 2009 as I did in 2008. The quality and selection of both types of shows has dropped off significantly. Maybe a little less on the moe side, but it's still be an extremely noticeable drop.

(As for a decline in quality from 2007 to 2008, I didn't notice one in particular, although that may be due to the fact that we're very different types of fans despite a shared taste for Kure-nai.)

Designed to sell more hug pillows? Maybe, but there's a lot of moe shows I've seen where the moe aesthetics has been only part of the appeal.

@ShadowKira01:
Actually, my experience with visual novel adaptations is that they tend to be some of the more conservative entries in the fanservice genre. That's not surprising to me since I would actually say "plot with porn" is a better description of the kind of VN typically adapted into an anime than the other way around.

[yezhanquan]

No offense, but I always had the feel that anime was the poorer cousin to manga, in the sense that if you screw up one anime series, the anime studio takes a huge body blow, and thus people tend to be less innovative. In manga magazines, screw up and the editors drop you to get another upstart. The ability to experiment is very much greater in manga, IMO.