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View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 117 Rating
Perfect 10 13 19.40%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 19 28.36%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 17.91%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 16.42%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 10.45%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 4.48%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 1.49%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.49%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-08-01, 12:43   Link #201
Weird D
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Too lazy to read through 10 pages of comments

Still, impossible as it seems, SOMEONE HAS OUT-CRAZIED OPHELIA!! I swear, all Roxanne needs is a pair of red eyes with three commas inside and she's set as Claymore's copycat

It looks like Yagi went out of his way to make us dislike her, still she is definitely the most dangerous : unlike most Claymores who have only one or two good techniques, Roxanne has several more and can probably switch at any time between them - only the 'hate' she feels prevents her from doing so.

Also, maybe Cassandra will be the one who kills her this time : while she knows other warriors' techniques, she probably doesn't know their weaknesses. If Roxanne uses the 'dust-eater' (which eerily reminded me of Ophelia's rippling sword ability at first), Cassandra might be able to counter it.
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Old 2011-08-01, 12:56   Link #202
MalakTawus
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@Weird D

You mean someone has out-eviled (lol,this word is funny ) Ophelia.

Afterall if we talk about "crazy" i'd say that Prissy takes the cake,no?
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Old 2011-08-01, 13:04   Link #203
Weird D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
@Weird D

You mean someone has out-eviled (lol,this word is funny ) Ophelia.

Afterall if we talk about "crazy" i'd say that Prissy takes the cake,no?
Sorry, that was a reference to the Claymore page on tvtropes which had 'nobody out-crazies Ophelia' as a meme And no, I never considered Ophy evil, just plain nuts.

Still not sure about Prissy, as a warrior she seemed fairly sane until she broke down. And as far as we saw, most ABs are slightly unhinged. Roxanne takes the cake for being like that as a warrior.
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Old 2011-08-01, 13:16   Link #204
klare
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so during that era, 2 super talented warrior exist at the same time and did not end well, similar to Teressa era

a nice flashback to introduce these former #1
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Old 2011-08-01, 13:18   Link #205
haegar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzhk View Post
Naturally, everything changed after Roxanne's involvement. Yagi must have had reasons to cut off the flashback to hide Cassandra's reaction to Roxanne's proposition of the Dust Eater nickname. I'm pretty sure Roxanne put the purge in motion soon after that confrontation, especially since there was nothing more to learn.
ya, she sure will make that poor sweet shy girly loose it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird D View Post
It looks like Yagi went out of his way to make us dislike her,
huh? I totally adore her
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Old 2011-08-01, 13:45   Link #206
Gooral
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@Malak

You're jumping to conclusions. Firstly we know she confronted Cassandra and they fought. We can't tell from pictures alone but she could be trying to provoke her and make her use her special technique but once it failed she stood down since killing her then could end up with her not learning it. Or she was just sparring and was trying to be still friendly then. Anyway, we don't know she didn't dare to face Cassy 1 vs. 1. We know however she wasn't impressed by her technique or Cassandra herself which would be odd if she knew Cassandra was superior. As for hours taking to defeat her, zzhk has answered that very well. Even in manga it's been explicitly stated so you're really reaching here. Also, for all we know Cassandra might have been the only one left standing and in such occurrence she could have told MiB anything. For all we know it might have been Roxanne they were fighting and Roxanne might have used this opportunity to steal as many techniques as she could while getting rid of witnesses at the same time. I don't see why Cassandra would suddenly try and fight her purgers if she really was going over her limit. She doesn't look the type. It's a small chance of happening but it's not out of the question. And even if Cassandra preferred to have back up while fighting her it would mean she was smart, we wouldn't be able to tell she was weaker from that information. Someone who brings a knife to a gunfight might be stronger but he certainly isn't smart. Why risk or exhaust yourself when you can do it the smart way?

As for Cassy not being a violent girl, she did cut more limbs off in her fight than Roxanne you know. While she doesn't appear to be psychotic or aggressive she also isn't someone who allows to be spit on. Once she was cut she started to get serious. So someone who killed her and maybe back-stabbed her and basically ruined her in every possible way shouldn't feel safe unless he was confident he could handle Cassandra anyway. And Roxanne doesn't appear to be someone stupid or overconfident if you ask me, rather someone shrewd and coldly scheming.
_____

@Malak and Fenrir

I've listed several possibilities yesterday why Cassandra Roxanne might have started so low even though she had lots of youki from the start (here and here). I'll add to this that since she seems so psychotic it's possible that as in Miata's case (and possibly Ophelia's) she had been given a lower rank than she deserved because of her mental state and being such problematic Claymore. But that's not the main reason why I'm replying. I was saying from the start that I don't believe youki quantity can change (so the thing that Galatea can measure), only youki quality (the thing Miata can measure) and if anything improves is that Claymore have more access to their hidden power (i.e. are getting more and more compatible with youma material). And there still isn't any proof that I'm wrong. The reasons why I think as I think are as follows:

  1. None of the ghosts has commented that their youki has increased which would become obvious once they would release it. The only thing Deneve said was (chapter 95, p.15, gernot's translation):
    "My first youriki release in seven years. Seems to be increasing my youki almost to the limit even during normal times".
    So it's not that she has suddenly increased her youki, she just has more access to it even at 0% mode.
  2. Rafaela was the longest living warrior we know and cloaked one at that and yet we haven't seen Rubel saying she surpassed her sister. If Yuma's, Miria's, Roxanne's power increases would mean youki increases I would think that Rafaella would surpass Abyssals (if she had the same growth ratio or similar, she would have harder time doing it because of much bigger power gap but it would still be significant and she already was as strong as Luciella from the start) and we know it wasn't the case. Otherwise she wouldn't have to wait so long and use such unique chance where her sister was so exhausted. And certainly she wouldn't lose to Clare (although it was a virtual fight so we don't know how well she was reconstructed).
  3. Yuma didn't improve that much compared to other Claymores whose previous numbers we know. Miria from being #17 rose to #8 before she even became half-awakened but not because she suddenly increased her youki but because Miria learned to use her youma powers more efficiently. Hilda knew from the start that Miria would surpass her (i.e. she had more youki) but because Miria couldn't control her phantom then (she could only do it once or much less times than when she fought AB in Slasher's arc) and even though her average speed was lower her max speed was from the start higher than Hilda's. The same thing probably happened to Yuma. And let's not forget that power increase is not linear. Different Claymore have different factor by which their power increases and there are often gaps between next and previous numbers. There is a gap between #11 and #9, sometimes there is a gap between #6 and #5 and there always is a gap between #1 and #3. So a jump from #17 to #8 is humongous and possibly more than #40 to #14 (and even if not who's to say that Yuma was just a slow learner but had lots of potential). And let's not forget that Yuma is defensive so for her abilities to start to show she would need more time than offensive warriors whose abilities are designed for fights.
    What's more, Yuma was training for 7 years with Claymores stronger than her and was protected. Under such ideal conditions any Claymore would power up. Training for 7 years with stronger (that's crucial) opponents with various techniques allowed Yuma to improve so much. She could gradually fight more powerful opponents without a risk of being killed (or even injured) and learn techniques of more experienced colleagues. I would like to see her doing that while in actual combat. If she tried to learn during the fight instead of surviving the attack and ending the fight as quickly as possible she would be dead in no time. On the other hand if she fought an opponent much weaker than her she wouldn't learn much.
  4. Strong warriors (Teresa, Priscilla, Miata) were assigned high numbers from the start so it would be absurd if #35 would either reach their level or top them all in organization's eyes (since she was considered one of the strongest #1s). Something like that just didn't happen, hence MiB were shocked how much Miria has improved.

BTW, we've had similar discussion here.


P.S.
Malak, let me start your reply to my post for you:

"You're completely wrong. It's a fact that youki increases and the ultimate proof for that is..."

Last edited by Gooral; 2011-08-02 at 08:31. Reason: Cassandra -> Roxanne || Thanks yononaka for pointing it out
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Old 2011-08-01, 13:47   Link #207
Shiek927
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I like her too - she's like The Joker.......you can't hate a character as downright diabolical like that, because you can't wait to see what they do, and hope all the more that somebody takes them down.
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Old 2011-08-01, 13:51   Link #208
haegar
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just a thought on how Roxy might have set up Cassy for purge:
since Cassy's style leaves people divided in legs and rest of body, and if I got that right Roxy already "read" the technique when sneaking behind to observ Cassy solo an AB - what if Roxy slaughtered a couple of humans using Cassy's trademark technique? If, at the time, the MIBS did NOT YET know for sure about Roxy's copykill that might have done it to get a purge order on Cassy who apparently killed humans. pure specualtion without base od cause. other than roxy's level of DEbase
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Old 2011-08-01, 13:56   Link #209
Gooral
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Nice idea haegar. As for Roxanne I think most readers will love to hate her (hence she's an interesting character) . So her name is double-fitting.
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Old 2011-08-01, 14:40   Link #210
Arturro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
[...] she could become cloaked only to specific targets, e.g. youki sensor who evaluated her power. Such ability gives new possibilities, in a way it's better than being completely cloaked since no one knows about it. Or if MiB didn't use it maybe it was like I said and she didn't bother to kill youma in her final test but instead was trying to steal techniques of other Claymores fighting it and always concentrated more on that than on doing her mission.[...]
Anyway, I agree that it would be absurd if she would improve so much and increase her youki but if she was hiding it (one way or another) or never released it it could make sense. [...]
I seriously doubt she can change even quality of it, let alone quantity. And quality isn't something that can be measured conventional ways so unless MiB had Miata during Roxanne's time I don't see how they could tell she improved so much if not for her results. But I doubt it had anything to do with youki quality increase and certainly not with youki quantity.
[...] we have resurrection then anything is possible now. That's why I agree with Bikerider and this deus ex machina bothers me. Sure, at least it makes thing interesting but I would prefer if they've had some mind controlling device and stored them in their facility for decades just for a situation like this instead of a plot device that screws the world up.[...]
There is an easy explanation how Roxanne started as 35 and why MiB's failed to recognize her potential. As we know MiBs started to train warriors for certain spots (numbers) and roles (eg. the eye) since Luciella and Raphaela time. Before them MiBs knowledge about warriors, yoki etc. was incomplete (well, still is ). So in each generation MiBs are making less and less mistakes with training and recognizing recruits potential. If Roxanne was an "early" no.1 it's no surprising MiBs failed to recognize her, also her "speciality" is quite sophisticated. It's even possible her talent inspired MiBs to create soul link.
MiBs even before made a lots of mistakes with recognizing warriors true potential. Theresa is one example, Clare second. MiBs failed to spot three potential eyes among the later ghosts. MiBs are not gods, they're making mistakes, especially when examining warriors with sophisticated youki skills.
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Old 2011-08-01, 14:46   Link #211
fraktur
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I hope that we get to know to which generation the zombies belong. (before or after luciella?)
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Old 2011-08-01, 15:01   Link #212
hh707
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Quote:
I hope that we get to know to which generation the zombies belong. (before or after luciella?)
I think we know pretty well that they are all before Luciella's generation. One of them might have been after but not all three. There's not enough time for three generations to occur between Luciella's awakening and Rosemary being #1.
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Old 2011-08-01, 15:42   Link #213
fraktur
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I din't assume that all 3 could be after Luciella. But you're right, so that leaves only Hysteria. But thinking things through the organization was almost completely destroyed after Luciella awakened so it's unlikely that they had some other possible no 1.
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Old 2011-08-01, 15:58   Link #214
MalakTawus
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@Gooral
First of all, of course i was jumping to conclusions,have you missed the part where i said CLEARLY that i was simply speculating and that there is no concrete evidence for now to conclude who is really stronger???
I simply said that IMO Cassy is stronger and i gave my interpretation of the few infos that we know to arrive to that conclusion,btw it's not that your speculation has any proof either,we simply don't have enough infos atm.

But i don't agree on what you said about "defeat is different than death".
Of course technically what you and zzhk say is true,BUT someone should explain how is it possible that (for example) Cassy was defeated in a few minutes but than several warriors took HOURS to kill her.It simply doesn't make any sense imo.
....and also what you say about being Roxanna the one fighting can't be possible for a very simple reason:
we know for a fact that in that fight there were several warriors,so we also know for a fact that the mibs prepared that mission in an "official way".....so the only logical conclusion is that that hunt was REALLY to kill Cassy.
I think that it was Roxy to set everything up,but that hunt was surely aimed at Cassy......also considering what Rubel and Dae have said about it,it surely seems that there were more than one survivor from that fight (not just Roxy),so what you suggest is even more improbable......

Quote:
And even if Cassandra preferred to have back up while fighting her it would mean she was smart, we wouldn't be able to tell she was weaker from that information.
True,but since i was speculating (and not trying to prove anything) i don't see what's the problem,it's a speculation that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
As for Cassy not being a violent girl, she did cut more limbs off in her fight than Roxanne you know. While she doesn't appear to be psychotic or aggressive she also isn't someone who allows to be spit on.
The bIG difference is while is pretty much confirmed that Roxy is REALLY evil,what Cassy did is nothing surely evil: she didn't play or "insult" her opponents in any way,and even the injuries that she caused to the rebels are absolutely nothing serious (for now).....the twins were hurt A LOT more,Cassy just did simple and clean cuts,it should be a joke for those warriors to heal from those.
I'm not saying that Cassy is surely the "kind type",i'm just saying that for now she is the only one of the three monsters that could be not-evil since what she did for now is not really evil and since in the past she was probably wrongly accused.
I belive that she is not evil at all,the next chapters will say who was right (it's not that i can predict the future,lol).

Quote:
it's possible that as in Miata's case (and possibly Ophelia's) she had been given a lower rank than she deserved because of her mental state and being such problematic Claymore.
ehm,Miata was still rank 4......it's not that the org gave her a rank in the 30-40 (and i doubt that Roxy was as problematic as Miata,lol. It's pratically impossible)

Quote:
P.S.
Malak, let me start your reply to my post for you:

"You're completely wrong. It's a fact that youki increases and the ultimate proof for that is..."
Nice joke......anyway i remember very well our past discussion about this and i also remember very well that we ended to agree to disagree since it was impossible to arrive at any definitive conclusion since Yagi still hasn't bothered to explain very well how yoki really works.
I'll just say that IMO you are wrong and that it seems quite strange to me that someone at n.35 could became one of the strongest n.1s (not just a normal n.1,as if it wasn't already difficult) without improving her yoki power (yes,even quantity).
Another example that increase my doubt on this matter is because imo it's quite clear that Deneve now can heal a lot more than what she could do the first time that we have seen her....and imo that's indication that not only the quality but also the quantity of her yoki has changed.....
Anyway even if i agree that there is no definitive proof that your theory is wrong, the point that you listed there means nothing since could be explained very easily in other ways.
Since it would be too long to take all those points (especially since we'll repeat our last discussion too much) i'll just make a simple example:

Quote:
Rafaela was the longest living warrior we know and cloaked one at that and yet we haven't seen Rubel saying she surpassed her sister. If Yuma's, Miria's, Roxanne's power increases would mean youki increases I would think that Rafaella would surpass Abyssals (if she had the same growth ratio or similar, she would have harder time doing it because of much bigger power gap but it would still be significant and she already was as strong as Luciella from the start) and we know it wasn't the case. Otherwise she wouldn't have to wait so long and use such unique chance where her sister was so exhausted. And certainly she wouldn't lose to Clare (although it was a virtual fight so we don't know how well she was reconstructed).
First of all if we want to be precise Rubel also NEVER said that Raph hasn't surpassed her sister,so this could be used both ways.....but anyway:
this could be explained very easily and (above all) in a very intuitive way saying that:
-maybe Raph didn't really train too much in those years (afterall we NEVER saw her training,she was ALWAYS just looking for her sister),so it's not that she could become magically super strong without doing a specific training.......
-maybe she simply had already reached her maximum genetical potential,something that btw exists for ALL living things,even in the real world...... (that's what i belive personally)
-about not losing to Claire, i'll add that we don't know how strong Claire was at that time

From what you said, you make it sounds like the other theories presuppone an ability to increase the yoki indefinitely.....and that's simply not true (if not it would be way too easy for you to prove that the other theories are wrong,lol).

Anyway i don't want to repeat that endless discussion since Yagi has still not explained yoki very well so our positions wouldn't be very different from the past (not to mention that it would be a very tiresome discussion and atm i really don't have enough time and energy,lol).
Let's just agree to disagree again untill Yagi gives us something really concreate about this matter (even if probably this will never happen).

OFFTOPIC: can someone explain to me how much reputation must be spread before giving more reputation to someone???It's really frustrating that qite often i "have to spread rep"
I'm almost to the point where i'll start give away reputation semi-blindly just to resolve this "problem" (i'm not even sure if this can actually work ).

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2011-08-01 at 16:11.
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Old 2011-08-01, 18:29   Link #215
rafael1932
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The ultimate proof that claymores don’t grow up yoki power by training is the half awakening. Yagi brought that new concept just to explain why the ghosts become so strong that can fight single numbers etc etc.

Although I do agree that by training they can get stronger but only their human side – muscles and that which helps to explain Yuma fight against those claymores but this type of strength is very little if we compare with yoma energy like I said before

Last time I talk about Teresa and quick sword. she have done that in the anime, therefore I don’t need to prove it. it happened and I don’t care if people like or not after all I didn’t liked the miria acting retarded as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
OFFTOPIC: can someone explain to me how much reputation must be spread before giving more reputation to someone???It's really frustrating that qite often i "have to spread rep"
I'm almost to the point where i'll start give away reputation semi-blindly just to resolve this "problem" (i'm not even sure if this can actually work ).
It does work. Vote for another guy and then see if you can or not. Maybe you have to vote 3 or 4 times before you can actually vote in the person you want.


--//--
I remember 1 thing I wanted to tell about this new ability from Cassandra. Does not seems that Brazilian fight style – capoeira. Its seems like she can attack or defend anytime while the enemies does not know what to do because they don’t understand right the moves

Last edited by rafael1932; 2011-08-01 at 18:46.
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Old 2011-08-01, 18:51   Link #216
Fenrir_valindri
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Just because half-awakening increases their Yoki doesn't mean it isn't possible in any other way. There are simply too many unknowns about how Claymores mature for it to be absolutely stated one way or another, but the growth of all the Ghosts after 7 years is a pretty good sign. The mere capability for Warrior's to advance in ranks the way they do also supports that Yoki can increase through training/time.

-----

Also, your being really stubborn about that Quick Sword issue rafaela1932. It is absolutely 100% certain that Teresa didn't use the Quick Sword, ever. She was simply fast enough to match speed with the Quick Sword due to her absurd basic abilities.
Teresa never used Yoki to fight, the only two occasions she did was when she fought Rosemary and Priscilla. Since the Quick Sword by definition of the technique uses large amounts of Yoki it is undeniable that Teresa did not use it.
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Old 2011-08-01, 18:56   Link #217
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I'm sure that a steady, healthy diet of yoma can increase yoki significantly.
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Old 2011-08-01, 19:08   Link #218
Korinov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafael1932 View Post
Last time I talk about Teresa and quick sword. she have done that in the anime, therefore I donít need to prove it. it happened and I donít care if people like or not after all I didnít liked the miria acting retarded as well.
Omg I'm so smarttt and everyone else is soooooo dumb I think I rule lololololz

Judging by your entire discussion with Malak, you really seem to actually don't understand how the QS works. Starting at that, your entire argument is pretty much doomed.
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Old 2011-08-01, 19:45   Link #219
Jean Claymore
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ROFL... you all haven't stopped discussing about Teresa and the QS? C'mon it's only past one day since last chap's been out and you still want to go on with this crazy debates from last month?
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Old 2011-08-01, 19:48   Link #220
MalakTawus
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@rafael
Quote:
The ultimate proof that claymores donít grow up yoki power by training is the half awakening.
And you call this an ultimate proof???

Quote:
Last time I talk about Teresa and quick sword. she have done that in the anime, therefore I donít need to prove it. it happened and I donít care if people like or not after all I didnít liked the miria acting retarded as well.
Ok,if you are happy with that, keep beliving that Teresa was using the QS,it's not that the world will collapse for this anyway.

Quote:
It does work. Vote for another guy and then see if you can or not. Maybe you have to vote 3 or 4 times before you can actually vote in the person you want.
Good to know,thanx.
Often i forget to give reputation,so it happens than sometimes when i really want to give rep i can't....and it's quite annoying when it happens.

@Jean Claymore
Actually i have never seen a discussion about Teresa and QS like that,probably because no one before was convinced that Teresa was using QS against Irene.
So technically it's a "new" discussion.....even if it's an absurd one,at least for me.
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