AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-03-16, 01:30   Link #12841
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 29
That would be pretty stupid, because Zen explicitly said "it's time for me to change" and it's clear this is character development.

Anyway, as I've said frequently, there are no constants with regards to this series. Every aspect of Medaka (her box, her motivation, her being the strongest or being unable to understand other humans) has been deconstructed enough, now it is finally time to deconstruct Zenkichi's devotion to her. Let's put an end to the sickeningly cliche shounen romance between them. The infantile interdependency of Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship has been since the start one of the very worst aspects of their characters.

(You guys should realize this is only a start, right? Zen was long ago put on this path when Ajimu helped him self-realize and get over his obsession with "protecting" Medaka, this chapter does not actually represent a major development for him. However, a major aspect of Medaka's character which she has never addressed or been pushed to develop away from is her emotional dependency on Zen. This is one of the major flaws of her character -- her inability to stand up to the loneliness of the universe, the challenge of communicating with other humans, by herself. This chapter and this development is a trigger for that. What I'm saying is that what we will be getting is an arc about Medaka getting over Zen. (Though it might not be an entire arc, Nishio could probably address all the development in a single chapter if he wanted to.))

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-16 at 03:24.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 03:12   Link #12842
Iby
minority spirit(?)
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hyakka Ryoran
Age: 28
Send a message via ICQ to Iby
Does this one work?
Spoiler for pic:

Anyways if you'll ask me I haven't seen any signs of Zen stopping to love Medaka. Yes, he wants to change but entirely for her sake/to be with her as an equal.

Last edited by Iby; 2013-03-16 at 08:28.
Iby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 06:49   Link #12843
Insert_Gel
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Don't worry about what Sol Falling said. He's being delusional again Since he badly wants ZenxMedaka relationship to end so that his Kumagawa will have a shot to Medaka.
Insert_Gel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 12:59   Link #12844
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iby View Post
Yes, he wants to change but entirely for her sake/to be with her as an equal.
No.

Just - no.

Sorry, that's not what happened in the manga.

Him rejecting her right now has nothing to do with bettering himself for her, much less for her sake. He explicitly states that he's no longer a guy who loves Medaka to the point that just being besides her will satisfy him, hence why he's changing, to living his own life - which he's having fun in, by the way - from simply being besides her.

Just being with her dosen't make the cut for him anymore. Plain and simple. So he's not going to abandon his life for that, which resulted in that rejection.

Is it a sign that their love isn't as important to him as it used to be? Yeah. Dosen't mean he stopped loving her, just that his love for her dosen't take precedence over his own life anymore. Sign of, you know, development. Maturity.

Please, let's not get that wrong.
__________________
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:12   Link #12845
Iby
minority spirit(?)
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hyakka Ryoran
Age: 28
Send a message via ICQ to Iby
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Him rejecting her right now has nothing to do with bettering himself for her, much less for her sake.
Spoiler for pic:
Iby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:24   Link #12846
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Thank you for proving my point.

Where, pray tell, does it say that he's changing himself for her sake, or to be with her in this chapter?

That's right. It dosen't. Because he's changing himself so he can be a person who isn't so dependant on his love, like Hanten. Why? Because he's having fun living his current life.

In-fact, it explicitly says he's changing himself, from someone like Hanten, who would've accepted the request because all that he wanted was to be with her, to someone who dosen't - someone who isn't satisfied anymore by just being with Medaka, and wants to live his own life instead of sacrificing what he wants to do.

Like it or not, his character just grew out of his ridiculous and overblown dependency on Medaka's love.

This lack of nuance is seriously ridiculous. It's as if people think everything Zenkichi does is for love, when that's a disservice to his character in this chapter. Sorry for being so blunt, but that's just the way it is, it's an extremely myopic view.

Since when Sol and I agree on something, that's gotta be right.
__________________
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:37   Link #12847
KleenexGhost
Riding the Ange Express
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sunriseland
I really dig the fact that Zen is trying to become his own man and walk down his own path. Medaka has changed now it's his turn to change and better himself. Him rejecting Medaka did hurt, just look at his face to see that. He still loves her but he needs to do his own thing. For now at least.

Now the question is how long will it stick?

I really wanna see what Nisio does with Nienami. Especially since he's teasing that she's Ajimu or has some connection to her.
__________________
"You know what these are, Mom? They're gazebos! They're BULLSH*T!" - Eddie Kaspbrak
KleenexGhost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:41   Link #12848
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Hopefully he can just fully outgrow his love for her and start loving someone decent. Like Nienami Shiranui or Emukae.

What? People can dream.
__________________
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:45   Link #12849
zigantz22
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
That would be pretty stupid, because Zen explicitly said "it's time for me to change" and it's clear this is character development.

Anyway, as I've said frequently, there are no constants with regards to this series. Every aspect of Medaka (her box, her motivation, her being the strongest or being unable to understand other humans) has been deconstructed enough, now it is finally time to deconstruct Zenkichi's devotion to her. Let's put an end to the sickeningly cliche shounen romance between them. The infantile interdependency of Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship has been since the start one of the very worst aspects of their characters.

(You guys should realize this is only a start, right? Zen was long ago put on this path when Ajimu helped him self-realize and get over his obsession with "protecting" Medaka, this chapter does not actually represent a major development for him. However, a major aspect of Medaka's character which she has never addressed or been pushed to develop away from is her emotional dependency on Zen. This is one of the major flaws of her character -- her inability to stand up to the loneliness of the universe, the challenge of communicating with other humans, by herself. This chapter and this development is a trigger for that. What I'm saying is that what we will be getting is an arc about Medaka getting over Zen. (Though it might not be an entire arc, Nishio could probably address all the development in a single chapter if he wanted to.))
The one thing I'm sure of in regards to Medaka x Zen's relationship, is that Medaka will never stop loving Zenkichi. It's just not a possibility for her. Of course, it's also not a possibility for Zenkichi, but that's been well-stated. But, by all means, continue to think that this is going to happen, merely so that, if it did, you would be able to once again start up with the whole "Kumagawa x Medaka are obviously going to become a couple", but, as most everyone knows, none of that is going to happen. Also, if you actually read Medaka's words in this chapter as she was saying goodbye to Zenkichi, you would understand that her love for Zen is deeper than you are willing to admit. No one gets over someone they have loved since the age of two in one small arc. If it didn't happen in the first 186 chapters, it's definitely not going to happen as the manga is nearing its end.They're simply going to become better and more individualistic people, primarily Zenkichi, at which point, upon reuniting with one another, they will inevitably come closer to the marriage that has been one of the most defined foreshadowings in the entire story up to this point.

Her love for Zenkichi, though very sporadically noticeable, is one of the only elements of her characterization that actually relates her to the humanistic nature of the world. If she were to unrealistically shed that particular inclinnation, she'd only be more ridiculously alienated from actual depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Thank you for proving my point.

Where, pray tell, does it say that he's changing himself for her sake, or to be with her in this chapter?

That's right. It dosen't. Because he's changing himself so he can be a person who isn't so dependant on his love, like Hanten. Why? Because he's having fun living his current life.

In-fact, it explicitly says he's changing himself, from someone like Hanten, who would've accepted the request because all that he wanted was to be with her, to someone who dosen't - someone who isn't satisfied anymore by just being with Medaka, and wants to live his own life instead of sacrificing what he wants to do.

Like it or not, his character just grew out of his ridiculous and overblown dependency on Medaka's love.

This lack of nuance is seriously ridiculous. It's as if people think everything Zenkichi does is for love, when that's a disservice to his character in this chapter. Sorry for being so blunt, but that's just the way it is, it's an extremely myopic view.

Since when Sol and I agree on something, that's gotta be right.
I completely agree about his disdain for ever being similar to Hanten, but that doesn't indicate that his love for Medaka has diminished at all, only that it's thankfully changed into something far more mature. He realizes that he'll only be able to grow and become someone who's life isn't solely determined by his love for Medaka with this decision to temporarily be separated from her side, but he's also obviously aware that it's not permanent, or else their conversation would have likely been considerably more dramatic.
zigantz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:48   Link #12850
KleenexGhost
Riding the Ange Express
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sunriseland
I like each of those girls more than Medaka. Throw Naze in there for a little fun.
__________________
"You know what these are, Mom? They're gazebos! They're BULLSH*T!" - Eddie Kaspbrak
KleenexGhost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:48   Link #12851
Insert_Gel
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
What? People can dream.
Of course. It's not bad to dream to please yourself
Insert_Gel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:49   Link #12852
Iby
minority spirit(?)
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hyakka Ryoran
Age: 28
Send a message via ICQ to Iby
Well I wasn't proving your opinion. You said that he didn't decide it because of Medaka but what I'm pointing out that he decided to do this because Medaka did that first, so he's just following her example. That's how I'm seeing it at least.
Iby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:49   Link #12853
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
I completely agree about his disdain for ever being similar to Hanten, but that doesn't indicate that his love for Medaka has diminished at all, only that it's thankfully changed into something far more mature. He realizes that he'll only be able to grow and become someone who's life isn't solely determined by his love for Medaka with this decision to temporarily be separated from her side, but he's also obviously aware that it's not permanent, or else their conversation would have likely been considerably more dramatic.
Cool. I'm glad that you realize that Zenkichi's not doing this for love, or to better himself for her, but simply because he wants to live his own life for a while, have some time for himself, grow from his dependancy.

That's what I think is important that we - all of us - get straight.

I consider it more mature because he's no longer just satisified simply being with Medaka, and in all ways, he is starting to value his own life, what he wants to do, more than her love. One could consider that a diminish of the importance of her love for him, being that before it was the opposite, and that's what I meant.

It's a good thing, it's maturity and development.

Of course, it dosen't mean he dosen't love her, more than likely still does. They'll probably still end up toguether, as much as I, personally, dislike the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iby
You said that he didn't decide it because of Medaka but what I'm pointing at is that he decided to do this because Medaka did that first, so he's just following her example. That's how I'm seeing it at least.
That's not what you were arguing.

You said that his motivation for changing is because he wants to be better for Medaka's sake/to be by her side.

That's what was erroneous about you said. Because that's not his motivation, as me and Zigs have just discussed. His motivation for changing is to live his own life and follow his own path, currently.
It's got nothing to do with love or even both of them as a couple. It's about Zenkichi stopping being depedant and move on with his life.

Medaka changed from someone who would self-sacrifice what she wanted to do for what she thought she had to.

Likewise, Zenkichi thinks it's time he changed from an aspect similar to that.

Which means growing out of his need for Medaka's love, like he said. Dosen't mean he's eliminated it - It's just no longer what satisfies his soul and being beyond everyone and everything else in his life combined.
__________________

Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2013-03-16 at 14:23.
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:52   Link #12854
Gundamx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
It sux to be Medaka >>> dump twice ( from her point of view ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
I don't know why but Zenkichi's face when he says I'm no longer satisfied by just being by her side reminds me of the Soul eater Excalibur face. It's basically like he just saw his future and went nope fuck that.
Excalibur say hi:
Spoiler for Excalibur:
Gundamx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 13:54   Link #12855
KleenexGhost
Riding the Ange Express
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sunriseland
I personally just wanna see Zenkichi become his own man and develop himself.
__________________
"You know what these are, Mom? They're gazebos! They're BULLSH*T!" - Eddie Kaspbrak
KleenexGhost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 14:01   Link #12856
Iby
minority spirit(?)
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Hyakka Ryoran
Age: 28
Send a message via ICQ to Iby
Though after rereading the last pages I believe that talking about how "Medaka-chan is running forward" and that "I need to do something too" was just an example. Still I can't see him stopping to love her. It's just about a time he has left working at a student council. Once it's over they'll marry of course. That Black-something arc wasn't there for nothing.
So yeah, I guess people can continue dreaming about other pairings and such
Iby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 14:03   Link #12857
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
I was never saying that he's stopped loving her, or that he will(even though I want him to).

I'm just pointing out that his life, what he wants to do at the moment, now takes precedence over his need for her love, when it used to be the other way around. That's his change.

And that's a huge development for him. He's matured deeply ever since "The day the moon dissapeared", since now, he's sure that Medaka has recovered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gel
Of course. It's not bad to dream to please yourself
Hey, that's what fanfiction exists for!
__________________

Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2013-03-16 at 14:33.
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 14:54   Link #12858
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigantz22 View Post
The one thing I'm sure of in regards to Medaka x Zen's relationship, is that Medaka will never stop loving Zenkichi. It's just not a possibility for her. Of course, it's also not a possibility for Zenkichi, but that's been well-stated. But, by all means, continue to think that this is going to happen, merely so that, if it did, you would be able to once again start up with the whole "Kumagawa x Medaka are obviously going to become a couple", but, as most everyone knows, none of that is going to happen. Also, if you actually read Medaka's words in this chapter as she was saying goodbye to Zenkichi, you would understand that her love for Zen is deeper than you are willing to admit. No one gets over someone they have loved since the age of two in one small arc. If it didn't happen in the first 186 chapters, it's definitely not going to happen as the manga is nearing its end.They're simply going to become better and more individualistic people, primarily Zenkichi, at which point, upon reuniting with one another, they will inevitably come closer to the marriage that has been one of the most defined foreshadowings in the entire story up to this point.
The one thing you are sure of is a troll, lol. What makes you so sure there's anything you can always believe in or count on? At the start of the manga, we might have thought "there's no way Medaka will ever stop believing she's meant to help people", right? Or "there's no way Medaka will ever lose to her enemies". Etc. etc. There are so many basic fundamental premises in this series which have been overturned, what makes you think Medaka's 'love'/dependence on Zen is an exception?

Quote:
Her love for Zenkichi, though very sporadically noticeable, is one of the only elements of her characterization that actually relates her to the humanistic nature of the world. If she were to unrealistically shed that particular inclinnation, she'd only be more ridiculously alienated from actual depth.
'Realistic' != depth. Medaka's strength and intelligence is unrealistic in the first place. For such an unrealistic existence, it is actually more realistic for them to become similarly emotionally independent. The 'human depth' that Medaka should have as a character should be the human depth of actual human 'geniuses', not 'humanity' in the sense that panders to the understanding of your average neanderthalic shounen reader.

There are no actual Medaka fans who like her solely for her rare moments of showing dependency on Zen. Not only would they be missing out on the majority of her meaningful characterization, but the idea of reducing a human to that in the very first place is utterly sickening.

Quote:
I completely agree about his disdain for ever being similar to Hanten, but that doesn't indicate that his love for Medaka has diminished at all, only that it's thankfully changed into something far more mature. He realizes that he'll only be able to grow and become someone who's life isn't solely determined by his love for Medaka with this decision to temporarily be separated from her side, but he's also obviously aware that it's not permanent, or else their conversation would have likely been considerably more dramatic.
The conversation was pretty damned dramatic. Zenkichi has previously defined his entire existence as "the one who will never leave Medaka's side". Medaka had also previously taken for granted "I will never be lonely (despite this being my greatest fear), because Zenkichi will always catch up to me". With Zenkichi refusing Medaka's expectation that he would go with her, he has changed the entire fundamental basis of their relationship. He has abandoned the sole fundamental reason why Medaka 'loved'/was emotionally dependent on him in the first place. Medaka and Zenkichi's "goodbye" could very certainly develop into a permanent one, because there is precisely nothing holding their relationship together anymore.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 15:29   Link #12859
ccie20012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
You are not correct (in my opinion) are interpreting the word Zen.
He spoke - "like Hanten-san".
Who is Hanten Shiranui? For Ajimu. Maybe it's her boyfriend? Maybe this is her fiance?
No, no, no.
I think after this arc Zen x Medaka relationship will become stronger.
In general, because Medaka - is the main character. She has a small "man's" character. And Zen now a little tsundere.
ccie20012 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-03-16, 15:33   Link #12860
zigantz22
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The one thing you are sure of is a troll, lol. What makes you so sure there's anything you can always believe in or count on? At the start of the manga, we might have thought "there's no way Medaka will ever stop believing she's meant to help people", right? Or "there's no way Medaka will ever lose to her enemies". Etc. etc. There are so many basic fundamental premises in this series which have been overturned, what makes you think Medaka's 'love'/dependence on Zen is an exception?
Love != dependency. Her dependency will likely disappear, but I can't imagine that her love for Zen ever will, since nothing has ever indicated that to be a permanent possibility for her. Though trolls have been a constant occurrence throughout the story, I find it extremely hard to believe that their relationship will undergo a similar fate, especially after it's been ingrained into the story and their characters so heavily before now. It can and likely will be altered, of course, but a permanent abandonment of their relationship easily remains one of the least likely developments for this story, IMO. I'll need far more substantial narrative evidence before I even begin to assume that the lasting nature of their relationship and eventual marriage is anything but an inevitability.

Quote:
'Realistic' != depth. Medaka's strength and intelligence is unrealistic in the first place. For such an unrealistic existence, it is actually more realistic for them to become similarly emotionally independent. The 'human depth' that Medaka should have as a character should be the human depth of actual human 'geniuses', not 'humanity' in the sense that panders to the understanding of your average neanderthalic shounen reader.

There are no actual Medaka fans who like her solely for her rare moments of showing dependency on Zen. Not only would they be missing out on the majority of her meaningful characterization, but the idea of reducing a human to that in the very first place is utterly sickening.
Put simply, her love for Zenkichi is one of the only qualities she possesses that is distinctly normal. Of course, her dependency on said love, similar to Zenkichi's dependency, was quite unhealthy for both and inevitably destined to be discarded, but, rather than "depth", which was a bit of a misstatement, it does add considerably to her characterization, since it's removed from the plethora of "super-human" traits she currently possesses.

Quote:
The conversation was pretty damned dramatic. Zenkichi has previously defined his entire existence as "the one who will never leave Medaka's side". Medaka had also previously taken for granted "I will never be lonely (despite this being my greatest fear), because Zenkichi will always catch up to me". With Zenkichi refusing Medaka's expectation that he would go with her, he has changed the entire fundamental basis of their relationship. He has abandoned the sole fundamental reason why Medaka 'loved'/was emotionally dependent on him in the first place.
The conversation was certainly dramatic on Medaka's side, but I was largely referring to Zenkichi's role in the conversation, as he was smiling throughout, and I highly doubt that would be the case if he's expecting her to be gone forever. Really though, can you honestly envision the manga ending without Medaka and Zenkichi together. I think the only possibility of that happening is if one of them dies or the manga is altogether cancelled prior to the conclusion.

Quote:
Medaka and Zenkichi's "goodbye" could very certainly develop into a permanent one, because there is precisely nothing holding their relationship together anymore.
So...the fact that they are engaged and still love each other, even beyond those minimal parameters, isn't enough to hold it together? I find that absurd. Their love, like themselves, can and likely will evolve and eventually mature.
zigantz22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.