2010-05-03, 00:52 | Link #7021 | |
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Oh holy crap. It's actually ending? f*** me a running. Here I thought we'd be doing it until we completely ran out of the manpower or resources. I really, seriously hope no jackasses mess this up. This is almost too good to be true. |
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2010-05-03, 02:26 | Link #7023 | |
I like guavas.
Join Date: May 2009
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2010-05-03, 02:51 | Link #7024 | |
Disabled By Request
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Anyways, it is really great news that there's finally some hopw for an end to this struggle between Israel and Palestine. Although as much as I hate to say this, if peace is achieved between these two, there's still going to be bad blood between them for a long, long time. |
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2010-05-03, 03:15 | Link #7025 | ||
I like guavas.
Join Date: May 2009
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But yeah, like you guys, I do hope for it. |
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2010-05-03, 04:45 | Link #7026 | ||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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The older generation of dogs who bathed in pork lard are dying and most are already dead : the younger generation should be more open minded to the concepts of peace in religion rather than religious rights of domination. Quote:
If you look at the history of Israel, it is like the psychology of bullying. If you give a victim a reason to fight back with violence, the victim will use the same reason to counter future enroachment on their personal rights : by branding those actions as bullying and giving them a reason to counter violence with violence. The simplest solution is still a second Holocaust : kill everyone in Israel and Palestine. Otherwise it would be an extremely difficult solution of negotiation after negotiation. Which one will you choose?
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2010-05-03, 05:03 | Link #7027 | ||
I like guavas.
Join Date: May 2009
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I saw a documentary once on PBS, a long time ago, I forget the name, but it was rather ambitious. The producers of the show got a group of young Palestinian kids and a group of young Israeli kids together, all about grade school age. they sent these kids to a spend a few months together, for the summer. They had a blast, and became great friends. They knew they were supposed to not like each other, but they didn't know why. So they got along great over the summer. When it was time to part, the kids cried and said that they would be friends forever, and that they could never hate each other. It was really sad to see them say goodbye. Then, the show met up with the kids several years later separately, when they were teenagers, to follow up. The Israeli kids hated the Palestinian kids and vice versa. They had in a one word, become indoctrinated. They talked about killing each other, and about how unjust it was that their enemies have their land, etc. It was heartbreaking to see the change, and the venom that spewed from the mouths of these teens. They were so convicted in their beliefs because they believed what they had been taught from all the adults in their lives, not to mention the media in their respective countries. It's propaganda like no other. And when you think about it, people are very much the product in which they are raised. Though I think your analogy has the right idea in terms of the Cold War, I do not think that it is an apt comparison. The Cold War didn't involve religion. When you throw in religion, the feeling of entitlement of the holy land, the suppression both groups feel and have felt throughout history, all on top of a strip of land with so much crude oil, it's a completely different ballgame. More than anything, religion just drives people nuts. Quote:
Last edited by MikaMiaka; 2010-05-03 at 05:15. |
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2010-05-03, 05:13 | Link #7028 | ||
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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The thing is that the issue isn't about religion, it is about parenting. I don't see my Muslim friends going all raged-up when a Jewish student from US came over for an exchange. Given the fact that those aggressors lived in land-locked deserts with little or no source of fish for subsistence, their lack of intelligence could be attributed to the unavailability of Omega-3 in their daily meals. *sarcastic* Quote:
Since both sides claimed they have won the war against each other, let me quote something from Einstein : You may have won the war, but you have not won the peace. or Invader Zim You may have won the war, but you have not won the thing bigger than war!
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2010-05-03 at 05:24. |
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2010-05-03, 05:23 | Link #7029 |
I like guavas.
Join Date: May 2009
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Well, I can't say you're wrong because you're not about parenting. But both root causes -- parenting and religion, is not mutually exclusive. In fact, in this case, they overlap. One causes the other and vice versa.
And might I also say -- if it isn't religion, it would just be something else. If this world didn't have religion, then another reason would take its place for why people do what they do. This is of course, the human condition. But the thing of it is, this world DOES have religion. And it IS religion because religion is what they cite as why they do what they do. Why did we carve out a country in the middle of an already existing country? Is it not for religious reasons? So, either you can take these people at their word when they say it is religion, or you can choose to second guess their motives. I believe them. This isn't a conflict that's recent. They've been fighting over that piece of land for forever. |
2010-05-03, 05:27 | Link #7030 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Parenting is what you teach your kids, and religion is what it teaches its believers. You can't teach your kids to believe in a religion, you can only influence them to. And if you influence them using the selfish interpretations of fakers instead of the wisdom fakirs, you get a terrorist-to-be.
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2010-05-03, 05:41 | Link #7031 |
I like guavas.
Join Date: May 2009
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They are not mutually exclusive, and I have no idea how you can separate them based on your own experiences, in this one instance. I'm Buddhist too, and by default because my parents are. But Buddhism contains no hardcore beliefs like Muslim extremists and on the whole, we are chill as f*ck because the whole premise is to just live your life how you want to, but in the course of doing do, do not hurt anyone in the process. That's simple to understand (but a lot harder in practice, though, hah).
Influence IS parenting. And parenting is influenced by one's own parenting AND religion. And you only have your open mind because you lived in an environment that encourages that. I think here, you're mixing up how you are growing up with how these kids grow up. And I know your heart is in the right place, but I think you're giving too much credit to a person's ability to go against the grain of their society. Not everyone has had the experiences we've had in terms of living in an open society. And more to that, since their parents taught them a certain way, they might not become indoctrinated completely, but when they step out into the world and face others who treat them badly because of who they are and where they come from (and the people who treated them badly are of course also influenced by their own parents and their parents' religion) they believe that they have evidence of what they have been taught. It's like Locke said, our minds start out completely Tabula Rasa, but we are molded by our environment. And when that environment contains religion, religion molds us too. I think it is a hard thing to deny. It's not like parenting is free of influence -- it draws its influence from a number of things, including religion. I don't see how you can deny this -- it makes no sense to me why or how you could or should. At best, it's just semantics and free of substance, that argument. I don't know how else to put it. |
2010-05-03, 05:48 | Link #7032 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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And I pointed out that influencing them to believe rather than teaching them to believe. Teaching and influencing are two different things despite coming hand in hand : the former addresses the technical instruction of doing something, while the latter addresses the reason of doing it. What the parents didn't teach is the acceptable way of being loyal to their religion : but rather they influenced the kids about their entitlement of that piece of desert using religion as an excuse. Don't blame the religion unless it explicitly states that violence against innocent non-believers is the way to go. Blame the believers, including prophets like Prophet Muhammed and Moses - they are important people in the religion, but they are still believers because they carry out the actions as examples with accordance to their beliefs.
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Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2010-05-03 at 06:01. |
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2010-05-03, 08:17 | Link #7033 | |
Rawrrr!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CH aka Chocaholic Heaven
Age: 40
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-attachment to the land: a common psychological characteristic in most agricultural and post agricultural societies, especially vivid here as lands are scarce and have been densely populated by your forebears since the dawn of History. -Zionism: an ethnocentric, or nationalistic ideology, which proclaims exclusive rights for it's community. The big problem is that it concerns the aforementioned lands... So on one hand you have a core cultural and psychological value, and on the other hand the very ideology which gave birth to the State of Israel. Nationalism is here the key factor, as it was in defining the politicies in this part of the world for the first three fourth of the XXth century, before the Iranian Revolution cast a new veil on it. Religious issues sure don't help, but they are only one of the many sparkles that set on fire the pre-existing dynamite stack laid by those aforementioned factors. For the moment, I think there won't be any major changes, as long as the Israelis have the Right of the Strongest with them chances are high the dialogue will remain as one sided as it had ever been. But ultimately, they will lose at the demographic race, as they already have underwent the demographic transition, and they no longer can "rapatriate" more communities, since the Diaspora is either extinguished, or has found more peaceful Promised Lands. Still, whether they will fade peacefully or bloodily is up to them.
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Last edited by JMvS; 2010-05-03 at 08:37. |
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2010-05-03, 11:13 | Link #7034 | |||||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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2010-05-03, 11:24 | Link #7035 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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Merkel in green! LOL! And Greece's ready for the apocalypse!
So where is the slaughtering of a water buffalo? China's Yuan Gains in Clout on World Markets Quote:
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2010-05-03, 11:38 | Link #7036 | |||||
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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2010-05-03, 15:06 | Link #7037 |
I like guavas.
Join Date: May 2009
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I don't know why it's not coming across so you folks can understand. I am not saying religion in and of itself is the root cause. I am saying religion is the catalyst and the go-to reason for why these people do what they do. That's all.
Edit: And I think that's a pretty general statement that contains enough truism to support itself. You can blame it on love of the land, you can blame just the believers, but at the end of the day, religion is the common thread that supports how they feel. So yes, it's a mixture of everything, but the foundation is religious belief. I hope that makes my point clearer. Last edited by MikaMiaka; 2010-05-03 at 15:31. |
2010-05-04, 02:51 | Link #7038 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Its basically yet another reason why one really should never want any conflation of religious beliefs and state power. It oozes potential for misuse.
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2010-05-04, 05:53 | Link #7039 | ||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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the israelis are the ONLY side in the conflict that has made any steps towards peace (evacuating gaza, for example) and have already signed peace agreements with other countries, and demonstrated that they are willing to trade large amounts of land for peace and the only reason why there might BE peace is if israel remains the strong one in the region, to the point where trying to fight it seems like suicide if the arabs countries believe that they CAN get rid of israel, they would continue to try to do so, since peace with it is considered even now to be nothing more then an unfortunate necessity even to those who have peace with them peace in the middle east is not ever going to come in the way some people are dreaming about (with the jews and the arabs sitting around the fire singing songs) don't try to think of the middle east through European eyes peace would at best only remain a strategic and economic advantage, and nothing more but at least is preferable to all out war as for the demographic race, thats also bull the arab population in israel remains under 20%, and decreasing (arab israeli birth rates are down to standard western levels of 3 kids per family at most) the "diaspora" is still in full swing, with the tens of thousands of jews coming to israel every YEAR (over 16,000 this past year, and that was considered weak by most standards) ironiclly, the increase in anti-semitic behavior in Europe, as a result of muslim immigration to eurpoe, is actually encouraging more and more jews to leave europe and move to israel within the decade, you could well see the remaining European jewish population (1.5 million) leaving europe (considering where the wind is blowing) i honestly don't know where this idea came from that israel, as it is today, is temporary did no one bother learning history ? was israel's existence seem more likely in the fifties ? the claim of israel "fading away" has been around for over 60 years, and instead, its numbers, strength, and economy, have only increased with time, so don't count on Israel fading away any time soon Quote:
and the reason that the talks MUST be without preconditions, is because preconditions are only used as an excuse to DELAY the talks there have been negotiations for over a decade without any preconditions, so don't start setting them now
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Last edited by bladeofdarkness; 2010-05-04 at 06:35. |
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2010-05-04, 06:59 | Link #7040 |
Disabled By Request
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I think the root of the problem isn't religion itself, but the general idealism that comes from said religion. Religious texts can be interpreted in a million ways, but the idialism remains the same. The problem between Israel and Palestine has its roots in religion, but by the end of the day, the problem comes down to land-ownership. The Jewish in Israel believe their country is the promised land. Palestine, however, believe that land belongs to them and the Israelis have no right to stay there. That's why they're always struggling with each other, and they use their religious texts to justify their actions.
But considering the harsh conditions people are exposed to there, especially the young teens mentioned from the documentary, why they fight no longer matters. They fight because they have to in order to survive. Those kids most likely saw many of their own die at the hands of the opposing side and started developing vengeful feelings toward one another regardless of their past. Call it indoctrination, but their personal experience with death also plays a good part in it. |
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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