Why are so many anime series fascinated with incest?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The “BroxSis love”-trend is usually reserved for the following genre: fantasy-action-harem (eg. SAO, To-Love-Ru, etc), SoL-harem (eg. OreImo, etc) and probably some genuine romance too (eg. Koi Kaze, etc). So, if you’re not following the genre, you might missed the trend.

Actually I forgot to mention Wixoss and Utena, which do not fall in any of those categories, and in both of them the incest theme is pretty central.

Like I said incest is far from being "incredibly popular" or widespread in anime, but it's also not so rare to be easily avoidable, especially when it's present on very popular shows of various kinds that are often recommended.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Actually I forgot to mention Wixoss and Utena, which do not fall in any of those categories, and in both of them the incest theme is pretty central.

Well, in my post that you quoted, I did say "usually", "probably" and "might", so I'm not saying my point is 100% true to all anime out there. There's always exception to the rules.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Fizix

@relentlessflame
Aren't these male characters "blank slates" because the intention is for the audience to self insert? Of course I may be wrong, but I was always under the impression that blank protagonists are for self insertion?

I think that's part of it -- particularly in eroge-based stories, the protagonist has to be somewhat malleable so that they can have chemistry with any of the heroines -- but the other part is because it lets the heroines and their defining traits define/drive the story.

I personally don't really believe that much in "self-insert", and I think the most successful protagonists of the last decade -- even in these sorts of stories -- have been those with a more defined personality.

Originally Posted by JagdPanther

SAO is exactly why I made this post.

I just got through Season 1 and the movie. Maybe for the first time in 20 years of watching anime I went all, "SERIOUSLY? W. T. F." when that particular element of the story crept in. Somehow, it really put a damper on the story for me because of how good the main character relationship is. I wonder how it is portrayed in Season 2, which I should start soon.

In any event, it's just finally gotten to a point with me where I really question why this "family" (no pun intended) of tropes is so incredibly popular (at least, as someone pointed out above, with the sort of stuff I tend to watch). I just don't get it. No, I just don't get it...

Spoiler for Minor SAO Plot Points:

In that particular story, anyway, I think it touched on a whole lot of themes the author wanted to deal with to tie the first arc back with the real world. Her relationship with him gets put on hold because he's in a coma, meanwhile he gets into a whole new relationship while to her time is frozen, and through all this she finds out that they're not actually siblings, so the whole thing is a recipe for genuine confusion. And, of course, drama, since it's really about romantic feelings that never would have otherwise developed, and then died before they ever had a chance due to a situation completely out of her control. It's a bit heavy-handed, but the author is trying to evoke your sympathy for her undeserved plight and doomed first love.

I sort of feel that particular example got maligned because of this particular trope when it was actually exploring some interesting ideas through the whole thing. Perhaps they were just hard to convey in the midst of what was going on.

Anyway, you should be able to proceed with Season 2 with no problem, as this particular element becomes part of the regular tapestry and not the focus as it was during that particular arc.

At the end of the day, I'm not sure it's that "incredibly popular", just that it may stick out to you more because you don't get the appeal. I suspect part of it in general may be a bit of an extension of the more prevalent "tsundere" craze, because it gives a plausible reason why the heroine has to be "cold" to their "love interest" (because their feelings are improper). (The other common reason is due to social class discrepancy.) In the end, I think it's possible to appreciate it for the dramatic potential, as long as you can see it as a fictional construct with its own set of internal rules.

And, well, like all these sorts of stories, it helps a lot if you find the heroine endearing, which is basically the point of all these sorts of tropes/clichés. Of course different people like different sorts of heroines, which is why most of these stories have a bunch to "choose from".

[aohige]

It also doesn't help that many seem to mix up just "severe case of sis/bro complex" with "incest".

[janipani]

Simple reason is that that many families have only one child. When it's a boy and who never had a girl friend they can fantasize about having a hot sister. They simply don't realize what it is like to have a sister. And Tada! We have a market for it.

I have three sisters, so those series don't work me at all. It's so damn retarded. But I also hate harems.

[Mahou]

I have an elder sister and still enjoy my dose of (w)incest in Visual Novels. People can feel sick due to it and I certainly won't laugh at them as long as they refrain from calling others out, for all I care. It all depends on how sensitive you are to certain sub-genres/if you can see it as a mere (sub)genre or not. I simply view the possible sister heroine as, well, another heroine. If that sister turns out for some reason unlikable, I'd never bother to read her route for example. And I'm pretty sure that I'd still enjoy the show or VN if the sister-type would be just another broncon without a route option. On the other hand, I also experienced few incest stories in VNs that felt more creepy than other samples in a similar-ish serious setting.

And quite a few "blank-slated MCs" are at least troubled with the "but we are siblings!" hurdle, unless their romantic love let them muster the resolve for the next step(s) (or the setting is more light-hearted in general). Other than that? I agree that the MC is - despite his other traits - made to have some sort of good rapport with the heroines.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Mahou

I have an elder sister and still enjoy my dose of (w)incest in Visual Novels. People can feel sick due to it and I certainly won't laugh at them as long as they refrain from calling others out, for all I care. It all depends on how sensitive you are to certain sub-genres/if you can see it as a mere (sub)genre or not. I simply view the possible sister heroine as, well, another heroine. If that sister turns out for some reason unlikable, I'd never bother to read her route for example. And I'm pretty sure that I'd still enjoy the show or VN if the sister-type would be just another broncon without a route option. On the other hand, I also experienced few incest stories in VNs that felt more creepy than other samples in a similar-ish serious setting.

And quite a few "blank-slated MCs" are at least troubled with the "but we are siblings!" hurdle, unless their romantic love let them muster the resolve for the next step(s) (or the setting is more light-hearted in general). Other than that? I agree that the MC is - despite his other traits - made to have some sort of good rapport with the heroines.

Same i like manga/anime with incest theme. Especially the one filled with drama, and have that theme heavily undertoned....


... and I have a cute little sister. Who lived apart from me since she was small. And have only started to live (alone) with me in last 5 years or so. And no, to me she's as sexually attractive as a lamp


The trick is to not assimilate fantasy and reality. Wonder why it's so hard for people to do that?

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

The trick is to not assimilate fantasy and reality. Wonder why it's so hard for people to do that?

They probably watch/read fiction stories for a connection to real life so they can feel like they've "changed" or "learned great knowledge" after finishing it. I put that in quotes of course because stories can't really do that as much as people want it to.

Of course this is only what i observe so far.

[Vexx]

It's a forbidden love theme fad (like many other fads anime series go through). This one seems to have lingered due to the currently poor economy of the anime industry. They aren't growing new fans in Japan but hysterically trying to keep the existing fans as they age. The fad used to be "first cousin" or "childhood friend" - common tropes in rural towns where those are often the only options for romance.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Vexx

This one seems to have lingered due to the currently poor economy of the anime industry. They aren't growing new fans in Japan but hysterically trying to keep the existing fans as they age. The fad used to be "first cousin" or "childhood friend" - common tropes in rural towns where those are often the only options for romance.

While I agree that popular tropes change, I'm not too sure that I see evidence that this is tied to the "poor economy of the anime industry" or trying to keep existing fans in particular. I don't really see anything to suggest that the popularity is tied to any given age group in particular, as recent major franchises that featured it prominently seemed to have a wide spread of popularity. And I'm also not sure that they "aren't growing new fans in Japan" either, at least beyond overall society population trends. And besides that, I'd say this has a fairly broad popularity with a pretty wide group of foreign anime fans of all ages as well -- at least those who dig fairly deeply into the hobby.

So... not too sure about the connection being made to broader trends, although I do think it went through a bit of a fad that hasn't totally died out, but isn't quite as prominent these days. I do think, though, this trend had as much to do with what "the kids these days" were into as anything to do with older fans.

[itisjustme]

^He said it harshly but he's got a point I think.

If you discount long running kid/family anime like Shin-chan, Doremon, Sazae-san, anime is losing steam in mainstream audience. I think even something like One Piece is a third less popular as it used to going by audience ratings. There hasn't been anything new in a decade that pushes the 10% rating in Japan (might be wrong though, just from memory).

There's been string of reports noting the decline of anime, from loss of workforce due to abyssal wages to Miyazaki criticizing the industry for being made of otakus disconnected with real life experience, to loss of foreign exports.

I don't know if it's the cause or the consequence but I saw an article where even a report from the Japanese Gov. noted that the industry has been increasingly pandering to otakus and losing steam with non-otakus. I think it's that increased "nicheification" together with over reliance on late night slots that causes the multiplication of fetishes like harems, lolicon/female babyfication (what passes as moe nowadays), and yes incest (or one sided sister love for the bro).

Personally I have felt that effect very much. Even on animesuki I'm feeling increasingly disconnected from the majority of posters and the majority of shows/works discussed compared to a decade ago, although that could be an age thing. :P

[aohige]

Meh.

I've heard the same "anime is dying" babble since the 80s.
The more things change the more things stays the same.

[itisjustme]

No one said it was dying. There was an anime bubble started in the 90s with DBZ (among other things), and now that bubble is gone and it's in a down trend is all.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

No one said it was dying. There was an anime bubble started in the 90s with DBZ (among other things), and now that bubble is gone and it's in a down trend is all.

But that's wrong. if there's ever been an anime bubble, that's in 2006.

Images

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Here in the top left graph you can see the total animated minutes in TV series per year. 2006 has almost twice as much as 2000. The nineties can't even compare to that, they had like 30-40 series per year compared to the 100+ that we have now. 2014 had 170.

[TJR]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

No one said it was dying. There was an anime bubble started in the 90s with DBZ (among other things), and now that bubble is gone and it's in a down trend is all.

The early to mid-90s possibly comprise the lowest point for the anime industry (collapse of the economic bubble which killed OVAs, declining birth rates, etc.), so we actually saw rebound during the following years. One "savior" revealed itself to be a white elephant, the other is arguably maxing out.

"Anime in decline" is actually a long-term trend that has been on-going for the past twenty years, if not longer. It has more to do with societal shifts and demographic projections (fewer children means that it's hard to finance productions, hence the focus on an adult consumer base) than current commercial circumstances.

There's been string of reports noting the decline of anime, from loss of workforce due to abyssal wages to Miyazaki criticizing the industry for being made of otakus disconnected with real life experience

These are on-going issues that have always existed. Bear in mind that leadership is still dominated by people who are now in their 40s and 50s - essentially, they're the same people who were influential during the so-called golden age. Not all are moe otaku, but they're otaku nonetheless.

Wages have always been low (and reports from a decade ago raised the same concerns, such as this JETRO publication). Granted, the situation has yet to improve, but these are old problems that have been discussed repeatedly over the years.

[itisjustme]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Here in the top left graph you can see the total animated minutes in TV series per year. 2006 has almost twice as much as 2000. The nineties can't even compare to that, they had like 30-40 series per year compared to the 100+ that we have now. 2014 had 170.

Erm, a bubble is a periodof inflated growth, not a maximum peak, so yeah by your graph actually confirms what I was saying. :P Besides numbers taken individually mean little, just in another thread there was some avg rating on mal stat showing post 2008 was the golden peak.

Originally Posted by TJR

The early to mid-90s possibly comprise the lowest point for the anime industry (collapse of the economic bubble which killed OVAs, declining birth rates, etc.), so we actually saw rebound during the following years.

Bubble, rebound. :P One notable factor I think in the 90s was the massive expansion in the global market, esp in the west. That's died since (anime-wise, I think manga still does ok) partly due to the lack of massive hits and partly due to the west making its own cartoons for older teens now I think, like Airbender. To be back on topic it's probable that the influx of new fans from the 90s/early 00s have increased the anime otaku market financially and the reason why the industry's shifted its focus from mainstream titles to otaku geared, since that's safe business.

[TJR]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

Bubble, rebound. :P One notable factor I think in the 90s was the massive expansion in the global market, esp in the west. That's died since (anime-wise, I think manga still does ok) partly due to the lack of massive hits and partly due to the west making its own cartoons for older teens now I think, like Airbender. To be back on topic it's probable that the influx of new fans from the 90s/early 00s have increased the anime otaku market financially and the reason why the industry's shifted its focus from mainstream titles to otaku geared, since that's safe business.

Yeah, western expansion was the false savior.

I think the problem is that there has never been any middle road in terms of audience. The industry either targets children/younger teenagers or otaku, and with demand for the former shrinking, they've zeroed in on the latter.

Within Japan, mainstream adult demand has never really existed. Unless producers create that market, they can only hope for another baby boom () or for the next savior (whether it's a new delivery model that flies off or a surprise market someplace else). In the meantime, they're relatively safe riding it out as it is, even if the far future is uncertain.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by itisjustme

Erm, a bubble is a periodof inflated growth, not a maximum peak, so yeah by your graph actually confirms what I was saying. :P Besides numbers taken individually mean little, just in another thread there was some avg rating on mal stat showing post 2008 was the golden peak.

A very unfair comparison. Ratings in general mean very little, they are subjective, even moreso if they are ratings from a single western site that was created in relatively recent times.

Regarding the definition of "bubble", it is not so if after the explosion doesn't go back to the same level or lower than it was at the start. Else it's not a bubble it's just growth, which it isn't a negative thing by any possible mean. And arguably it can't possibly be associated to "decline", it's basically the antithesis.

I hear people talking about the decline of anime, but where exactly does that come from? Is there any objectivity in it at all, or just people wearing nostalgia goggles?
Is there anything beside "I think anime nowadays suck, therefore anime are in decline"?

[itisjustme]

^Meh. It's not really the place for an economic debate or anything, but no. Even the great depression didn't crash past pre 1922 levels.

[Irenicus]

Aiming to make anime mainstream is a pointless endeavor anyway. The global growth trend is towards entertainment niches, on all fronts -- music, television (Netflix), video games (indie). Once Japan catches up, the same thing is going to happen there, if it's not already underway.

But as interesting as that topic is, can we talk more about Our Lord and Savior, wincest? (´･ω･`)