Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Haak]

I wish I didn't go around and read posts in this forum so much. If I hadn't the big reveals of Homura being from the future and Magical Girls turning into witches might have actually been more of a surprise. Still, brilliant episode.

[kankyo]

Wow. That's one messed up ecosystem they have going there. Caterpillars are killing the butterflies, which releases the eggs, which our red-eyed little friend in-Kyubey-tes.

So either they don't have enough witches where Kyubey comes from or he re-introduces the eggs back into the ecosystem when caterpillars aren't looking?

Now, let's see if we can still play devil's advocate for Kyubey.

What if (and I admit that it's a big if), those people witches drive to suicide are "damaged" somehow to begin with and carry within them some sort of "darkness"/"negative energy"/"grief" that witches feed on/collect in their system and through the cycle of getting killed -> turning into a grief seed -> collecting some more "darkess" from the MGs -> hatching -> eating some more "damaged" people they remove the "darkness" from the environment? What if the whole thing is just a big "grief" distillery that scrubs the "damage" and leaves behind happy well-adjusted people?

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Even if Madoka were to become a Puella Magi, I don't think she could get through Sayaka's head.

Sayaka contradicts herself when she tells Madoka to become a Puella Magi to understand her position, because she also says that she wants to a different from the other Puella Magi. The main problem is that Sayaka thinks her problems are unique and exclusive to her. Because to her, she is the only one suffering to that extent, no one can understand her.

No, it's because she's suffering that she's finding a way out. It's like saying crying doesn't help so I'll cut myself so it won't hurt as much. Sayaka only brought up the idea of being someone different after all the pain she went through, not before.

Also don't forget that she regrets saying those harsh words to Madoka, bringing parallel to what Touma did to her a few eps back. Sometimes people just say things they didn't meant to.

[Proto]

No, absolutely not. It already has been determined, QB is evil, without a trace of doubt. Why is this nonsense still being debated? Where is this absurd impulse coming from to be apologetic for his crimes?

People can still argue he's of a lawful neutral alignment with an evil tendence instead of just lawful evil or neutral evil. For example:

- Is there a single instance in the series where he has lied outright?
- Hasn't he always asked once or twice and making sure that the girls are convinced that they want to be Mahou Shoujo before accepting the contract?
- Didn't he try to tell Homura and Kyoko that Sayaka was reaching her limit already?

To some people this could sound like Kyubei is bound by very specific rules he has to follow at all costs, which, given the current events, could lead one as classifying him more as a lawful neutral with evil tendences than an pure neutral evil person.

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by Mentar

No, absolutely not. It already has been determined, QB is evil, without a trace of doubt. Why is this nonsense still being debated? Where is this absurd impulse coming from to be apologetic for his crimes?

QB is trying to snare unsuspecting little girls with glittering stories of being Magical Girls fighting evil. Hell, they can even voice a wish for ANYTHING, and a miracle will happen. Yes, it's dangerous, but isn't all this worth it? Besides, this way you can protect those dear to you from these evil witches.

However, the truth looks entirely different. By contracting, you're bound to eventually BECOME one of those witches QB claims you're supposed to fight. Your life will be full of misery, you will lose your humanity, and in the end you're going to die at best. QB infects unsuspecting girls with a deadly disease, for his own gain, in a gigantic and malicious bait and switch scam.

What he is doing is evil, plain and simple. And I don't give a crap about the question whether or not he feels remorse for his deeds, or if he adheres to human standards of morality or whatnot. It's completely irrelevant, even though the very last scene with QB chuckling about the kanji joke that it's fitting to call the girls Mahou Shoujos, since you can't write Witch without Mahou Shoujo - which is quite pernicious on its own. His DEEDS make him evil. And whoever still feels the need to debate that seriously should have his head examined. Sorry.

Isn't QB's good/evil a matter of perspective ?

As an analogy, a shepard protecting a flock of sheep from wolves. From the wolves perspective the shepard is evil since it's trying to keep them from living. From the flock's point of view the shepard is good since he's protecting them, From the shepards point of view, good an evil don't really enter into the equation, he's just doing whatever is necessary to attain his goals.

Considering QB's situation, if he doesn't recruit any new girls the current witches would cause all kinds of problems. Wouldn't it be evil to allow that to happen ? Sure he's contributing to a vicious cycle but we don't really know his motivations yet (aside from Homura stating he has some kind of as of yet undefined plan).

Overall this is similar to the dilemma faced in Claymore, where demons are a threat to humans, so humans become half demons to defeat the demons, and in turn become demons and a new threat to humans, which require new half demons to defeat them, which eventually turn into demons, etc, etc.

[Mentar]

Guys. Good and Evil are human concepts. It doesn't make sense to apply them to wolves and sheep. If you don't consider what he is DOING to be evil, after all we've seen and heard, I really can't help you.

[Proto]

Not really, I'm just having fun adding fuel to the fire. (and because unlike most people I don't really think ep 08 solved anything about Kyubei intentions).

[Jimmy C]

For kicks, I decided to framestep through witch-Sayaka's birth scene. I found something interesting, near the start of the sequence, interspaced between the scenes with the script, is an image of a small girl, who looks like a young Sayaka, wearing a handrawn version of Sayaka's symbol.

[hoarfrost]

Huh? There are still doubts as to Kyubey's motives? Didn't he say at the end of the episode that he contracts MGs knowing that they'll eventually become witches? Add that to the fact that he's an Incubator. Connect the dots and its pretty clear that what this episode is saying is that Kyubey is farming witches. I'd like to see someone come up with a benevolent explanation for why he'd do that.

He has lied by omission and even though he warned them that Sayaka was reaching her limit, he never warned them that crossing that limit meant becoming a witch. After all, she though that her gem running out meant she'd just die. He's done nothing but deal in half truths since the beginning, and unlike Homura, has an explicit benefit to gain by keeping people in the dark.

[DragoZERO]

Holy shit!!! That was crazy. We even had our Urobuchi face too. Awesome.

[broken270]

Spoiler:

Despair, grief, and sorrow all ride on her head as Sayaka continues to live on. Madoka is trying her best to talk to Sayaka about the actions that she has shown when confronting that witch. The problem is that it is not happening, as Sayaka is ignoring her comfort because she herself has not experienced what it was like to be a Magical girl. Sayaka is going through all of this, believing her pain is solely unto herself, and that no one would be able to understand this. She went as far as telling Madoka to become a witch herself and see just how bad her life is, a taboo for either of them to say. Sayaka leaves, leaving regret for both parties, for she believes that she officially lost the last bit of happiness that she has left unto her.

Back in Homura's estate, Homura tells Kyoko that the night will appear at the clock tower. Kyoko doubts her information on how she can be so sure of her prediction. Kyubei comes out of nowhere and is given a bad welcome from Kyoko. Here Kyubei gives information about the ending time for Sayaka. While Kyoko has no clue what he is talking about, Homura knows perfectly well what is going on. This information confirms that indeed Soul Gems do turn into Greif Seeds once there is enough darkness enveloped around her.

The next day, Sayaka watches as Hitomi makes her move on Kyosuke now that time is up on her. Again, Madoka tries to help her out, but fails because she was not at home. Sayaka pents out her anger by destroying familiars infested in a building. Here, Homura appears, giving her a Grief Seed to cleanse herself, but is automatically refused. Homura tells her a muh as she can about what she is currently going through, yet Sayaka is still in depression. Here, it is confirmed that Homura's true intention was so that Madoka does not get hurt when everything happens. Homura went so far as to killing Sayaka, but Kyoko comes in and stops her just in time. And those men in that train fueled the last fire needed for her to become completely insane due to distress.

Madoka is on the move and searching for Sayaka. Kyubei comes into the fray. Madoka is concerned by the conversation yesterday and asks if it is indeed true that she will become a great magical girl. Kyubei tells her the information she wanted to know. Madoka, desprate in finding/saving Sakaya was about to tell her that she wants to be a magical girl for her sake, but Kyubei was shot by Homura. Here, we see Homura's true feelings for Madoka. Homura openly admits that she does not want her to become a magical girl and think that she is a meaningless person without those powers. Makoda slightly awakens her past/future?, almost thinking that she has meet Homura before. Confused, Madoka sets her goal on finding Sayaka. Kyubei is not dead just yet, he has another body to replace himself with. To remove the evidence, he eats himself. So, Homura's power is actually time distortion rather than just teleportation. Here, we know that Homura is indeed from the future, and her goal is to prevent Madoka from becoming a Magical girl with the inclusion of non-suffering/grief. So, Kyubei's true name is Incubator, which makes sense after what he is doing.

Kyoko was the first person to find Sayaka and the first person to see just how tainted her grief seed is. Sayaka openly admits the faults about becoming a magical girl and what presides from it based on her experience. She gave quite a decent explanation of how the life of a Magical girl is going to look like in the end of the road. It took a teardrop, the last remains of her grief, to shatter her Soul Gem and form quite a large Grief Seed above her. That is quite a nice play of words that Kyubei just made, which makes quite a decent amount of sense.

Speculation

Spoiler:

I am going to sound silly for saying this, but I say Homura has done this quite a number of times and is playing Higurashi where Homura=Rika. The reason people does not believe her may have been that in her last try in getting the future correct, in a similar situation, she does tell Madoka everything, but she does not believe her at first. This led to a bad end, and Homura is back in square one to rewrite the past. This time, she doe not say it, and, hopefully, a good end would occur form that. Kyubei said that she managed to kill him twice. I guess the first time was way back in episode one where we saw Homura with a badly beaten up Kyubei who may have died already, and the body we have been seeing was his second body. I think Homura has killed him more that twice, again back to my silly connection with Higurashi. Everyone but Homura knows what is going to happen in the future, well, at least the important parts of it, since the past can be relatively different yet still obtain the same bad end. I do not know if Kyubei is making a good Miyo or not.

[DragoZERO]

Read a little of the thread, but 22 pages is just...

Originally Posted by Haak

I wish I didn't go around and read posts in this forum so much. If I hadn't the big reveals of Homura being from the future and Magical Girls turning into witches might have actually been more of a surprise. Still, brilliant episode.

I didn't think she was from the future, that was a surprise from me. But some kind of link between the witches and magical girls was implied a lot. The kicker is who it happened to, and when it happened. Madoka's last conversation with her best friend was not a pleasant one, and nothing can change that. It's things like that which make more of an impression on me.

[Hooves]

This episode just gave me a strange theory that Homura wished for time to repeat itself, and then she would be able to stop the events from occurring that apparently happened in the future. That would explain her ability to stop time and apparently shoot Kyubey 16 times in less then 3 seconds. If Kyubey gets a hold of Madoka and she becomes a magical girl, then apparently her potential that people are going on about will eventually turn her into a witch and things will start falling apart (probably leading to that dream she had).

So Madoka apparently still remembers Homura, but not clearly since time was repeated (probably because of her potential) and the thing about Kyubey is pretty much close to being cleared to me. Kyubey is something that makes girls into magical girls, then he apparently knows the fact that all the sorrow that they achieve while they are magical girls will eventually corrupt them and turn them into witches. He also has many replicas of himself, so could that explain how he always appears whenever the girls need to wish the most?

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by Proto

- Is there a single instance in the series where he has lied outright?

You can lie without actually telling a lie:

Definition of LIE
intransitive verb
1
: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2
: to create a false or misleading impression

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...2&t=1298746113

Kyubey is very careful in choosing his words, making sure not to tell details that might impair his goal of contracting Magical Girls. He basically gives them a false impression of what it is to be a MG by only telling them certain details and not telling others. As evidenced with the definition above, that also counts as lying.

- Hasn't he always asked once or twice and making sure that the girls are convinced that they want to be Mahou Shoujo before accepting the contract?

And yet, he doesn't take 'no' for an answer, as he keeps coming back to them, even if they keep refusing. This is called manipulation and normally, that is considered to be a bad thing.

- Didn't he try to tell Homura and Kyoko that Sayaka was reaching her limit already?

As said by others, this is probably because he wanted to catch Madoka alone in order to contract her, as the other two would be too occupied with trying to save Sayaka. If Homura didn't know he was going to do that, he was going to get away with it, too.

Try to picture Kyubey as a rapist who has set his eyes on Madoka. Do you think he would stand a better chance of raping her with others watching her back, or if he caught Madoka alone and defenseless? My money is on the second.

Similar thing applies here. By now, Kyubey knows that contracting Madoka can only be achieved if he catches her off-guard and that it's fruitless if either Homura or Kyouko is making sure he doesn't get to her. Had he known that Homura was on to his scheme, he probably would've thought of something else that would've allowed him to reach his goal.

To some people this could sound like Kyubei is bound by very specific rules he has to follow at all costs, which, given the current events, could lead one as classifying him more as a lawful neutral with evil tendences than an pure neutral evil person.

No, it classifies as an evil being who apparently must heed to certain rules.

We've seen plenty of clues to Kyubey's true nature in the past 7 episodes, this episode pretty much nailed him in the 'evil' camp.

And let me ask you this, why doesn't he ever mention his FULL name (Incubator)? is it possible that he is trying to hide that he's something much more sinister than he appears to be? Also, why didn't he tell Sayaka why he 'eats' Grief Seeds? Why isn't he telling them so much stuff that they had the right to know about (and he should have been obliged to tell them) before they signed up?

This episode tells us that Magical Girls become witches if their Soul Gems dim. Why didn't he warn Sayaka that could happen when he saw she was on the verge of inanity? All he said was that she shouldn't overexert herself, he never said why she shouldn't do it. And even was she was in her deep depression, why didn't he tell her to find out whether or not Hitomi actually confessed to Kamijou, because she might have misunderstood the conversation she had been watching from afar? If he truly cared for her well-being, why did he not bother to tell her anything that could have prevented her from going insane?

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Hooves

This episode just gave me a strange theory that Homura wished for time to repeat itself, and then she would be able to stop the events from occurring that apparently happened in the future. That would explain her ability to stop time and apparently shoot Kyubey 16 times in less then 3 seconds.

Correct. It's not a strange theory though, let alone new. People suspected about the thing ever since people suggested after episode 1 that Madoka knew Homura before. I'm a sucker for time related abilities as well so I'm in the same boat. You just gotta love the overpoweredness of an ability with only few yet fatal downsides.

If Kyubey gets a hold of Madoka and she becomes a magical girl, then apparently her potential that people are going on about will eventually turn her into a witch and things will start falling apart (probably leading to that dream she had).

Not quite, as she wasn't an MG yet during the dream. The dream points more towards the nature of Walpurgis Night itself.
See:

Look at the upper left, the dark red thing with "Ein Narr" under it (German for "A Fool"). That's definitely the same thing that was seen during the dream. Possibly Sayaka (seeing how she called herself an idiot several times now) but that's just wild speculation.

So Madoka apparently still remembers Homura, but not clearly since time was repeated (probably because of her potential) and the thing about Kyubey is pretty much close to being cleared to me. Kyubey is something that makes girls into magical girls, then he apparently knows the fact that all the sorrow that they achieve while they are magical girls will eventually corrupt them and turn them into witches. He also has many replicas of himself, so could that explain how he always appears whenever the girls need to wish the most?

Negativity plays a big role but keep in mind that what taints the SG mainly is the fact that you overuse magic without recovering it through GS. Kyouko and Homura have managed this long to stay sane even after all the despair they went through, because they don't spam magic carelessly. And then you have to keep in mind that some girls are simply more talented. Mami didn't have enough GS because of the way she did things but her natural potential kept her SG fairly clean, compared to, say, Sayaka's.

We can't be sure yet whether there are several Incubators at the same time or whether there is only one of them which gets replaced automatically. Anyway, it should be certain that he has some kind of sixth sense that allows him to track down girls that are in need of something that they want to have changed by a wish, and girls who can see him. Example: Mami's car accident, Sayaka's determination to make a wish for Kamijou's sake.
Also, some observations on my side:

Originally Posted by Vanish

About Incubator: it is strongly implied that he travels by shadows.
1) He infiltrated Homura's room through a shadow, and left the same way
2) He appeared before Madoka through a shadow
3) The new Incubator, after one of the lights were deliberately turned off (his doing?), appeared close to the same spot in a pitchblack shadow
4) In episode 4, right before he appears before Sayaka, an unnatural sound is heard. Also, the sunset was present which fortunately is a good time for shadows
5) Unrelated but at the end of episode 8, it can be reminded that such a high place is not at all bright, it only seems so because you see the lights way down

[Kinematics]

Just because...

Sayaka's transformation, rune translations:

22:11 -- Red background with conductor outlines

T E M P E S T O S O

Tempestoso:
A directive to perform a certain passage of a composition in a tempestuous, stormy, or boisterous manner.


22:12 -- Young Sayaka

Ä F F E
>> T T U O S O

Affettuoso - affectionate, with tender warmth (musical directive)

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Vanish

Correct. It's not a strange theory though, let alone new. People suspected about the thing ever since people suggested after episode 1 that Madoka knew Homura before. I'm a sucker for time related abilities as well so I'm in the same boat. You just gotta love the overpoweredness of an ability with only few yet fatal downsides.

Hmmm, I had this theory for quite some time, I think it was about episode 3. But it was rephrased as to Madoka wishing for time to reset itself, but then this episode just gave me the idea since I finally got to see Homura's abilities in action while shooting down Kyubey. But you are right, an ability to control time is incredibly overpowered, but the downsides can be quite fatal.

[Kaijo]

No, he hasn't lied. In fact, he's been downright truthful when asked, having been right twice. First time when he told them about the soul gem, and his reasons for not doing so. The first time during Sayaka's fight with Kyoko, where he said only one MG could come between two others; he was right, because it took Homura. And the second time about the soul gem: If Sayaka were never told, she'd be fine now and she never would have become a witch.

Anyway, onto episode 8 of "Clueless Whiner Madoka Angstyka (and her dumb-as-a-doormat friends)"

Going lite on the review here, since I'll want to get into these points more in other threads. But suffice it to say, this plot seems to really be able to advance only due to conveniences and character stupidity.

Homura just happened to be right there to fill Kyube full of holes, so incredibly, just when Madoka was once more going to actually make a hard decision to do the right thing. That's rather convenient; Homura can't watch Madoka 24/7, and is obviously off doing other stuff, so it's just nice she's right there, eh? You know, if Homura could take out Kyube that easily, why did she have an issue in episode 1? She should have been able to take him out just as easily. Of course, that way was needed in order to attract Madoka and Sayaka into it. Sloppy writing or subtle plot?

Madoka finally gets around to asking whether a wish can return Sayaka to normal (so why hasn't she asked about bringing Mami back from the dead? Or will that remain a plot hole?) and we find out that if wishes can bring people back through time and return MG's to normal, then there isn't much they can't do.

That's right; we could have solved the entire problem in episode 2... but then we wouldn't have had a series. "Gosh, Mami, your work is so dangerous... but wouldn't it be easier to just wish all the witches away?"

However, the series relies on the girls not asking the obvious questions. And it continues to be predictable. If the majority of the audience can see where you're going from episode 2/3 onwards, then it's way too predictable. And if the audience can see it with the same information the characters can, and yet the characters don't see it... what does that say about them?

There is some interesting stuff in Madoka, and I suppose a lot of my feelings were in hoping there were some major plot twists. But so far, there hasn't been any. And there's still been too many things that just haven't been explained that need to be. Why only girls? Why do they actually have to fight and use magic at all? Why does Kyube attempt to protect the girls and yet somehow the show is trying to tell us he doesn't? What we're being told isn't matching up with what is being shown.

Anyway, all dramatic tension is now gone, since if a wish can't take care of things, then Madoka's god-like reality altering powers can take of it. But we'll have to sit through four more episodes before she realizes that.

Sayaka, continuing to act stupidly. I understand her self-destructiveness, because she wants to die on some level. But it really comes across as overacting.

Homura is almost yandere like in her stupidity: "I just need to destroy everything Madoka loves in order to protect her. Oh, and I won't tell her things that would help my obviously stated goal, because we need a plot." Perhaps I've had many close friends of both genders, but I don't see love there yet. Two people can be really close without romantic love being present.

However, given what we know about Madoka's powers, it's quite obvious now who created Kyube and the system: Madoka herself. If she can rewrite reality once, she can do it again. However, if she deliberately sacrificed herself to end the system, then I understand Homura's true goal. Who cares about ending the system, as long as Madoka remains alive and/or not an MG? Which would almost make Homura more villainous than Kyube, who just seems to want to see Madoka's power, even if that ends the system. If Kyube is just a part of the system and doesn't have enough free will or emotions to decide whether he wants it to stay or go, then he's hardly the villain here.

It's interesting that he doesn't know where Madoka's power comes from. If he understood anything about a girl's magical power, he should have some idea, so he couldn't have been behind the creation of the system. He's as much part of it as everyone else.

Ironically enough, it's our lovable sociopath Kyoko who seems the most sane. Ironic, given she went through watching her entire family killed, and yet didn't despair enough to turn into a witch.

However, I hold out some hope for some possible twists, that I will detail in another thread.

[Kazu-kun]

Kyubey lied this episode. When Madoka asked him if he could turn Sayaka back to normal, he outright told her this was beyond his power. This is the first time he admits there's something he can't do. Now go back to episode 2, and then he tells the girls he can grant any wish. So, one of this two statements is a lie, that is a fact.

[applejuice]

@kaijo: So many things I disagree (like how you say it is predictable so no good, tensions are gone etc.), but I stopped caring about discussing anyway.