[Manga] Chapter 444 Discussion

[Hanzoman]

^I agree. Fighting Nagato gave naruto the theory(his "answer"), Sasuke will give naruto the chance to put it to practice.

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Yeah. When Jiraiya found Nagato and the others, Nagato was all "i have to protect my friends, but i don't like to fight", he didn't show even a trace of his future self. So, it's probably the next one that will show he got his mind fucked up.

Not quite, there is reason why there are two stories. These two stories about his past life, are his reasons as to why he wishes to destroy Konoha and establish his radicalistic form of peace.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Supermutant

I wonder if there is meant to be comparison by Kishi anyway. Did Pain's goals evolve over time perhaps? Maybe he originally wanted to create peace in the Rain village and this act later led him to develop his philosophy and larger goals. Perhaps if unchecked, Sasuke's hate could grow less specific if/when even revenge fails to quell the pain within.

What would Saskue reasons be for taking his venegnce out on the World though?
Pain had reason to attack the entire world, I don't see Saskue's hatred growing no more than Konoha and the people connected with it.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Exactly. How in the world can any of you compare the Scale of Nagato's goal [The world] to Saskue's goal [Konoha]?

I am seeing them as actually referring to the indirect consequence of Sasuke's actions. For instance, creating a chain reaction to eventually engulf the whole world. In that aspect, the end result may be similar, but currently that is not the case.

Saskue -> Sasuke

[Phenomenal]

The end result will be Naruto punking Saskue.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

The end result will be Naruto punking Saskue.

Amen to that. Here's hoping that Sasuke becomes even more powerful just so that when falls, he falls hard...

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

I don't know what you're talking about... Please explain yourself? Is there something in my paragraph about the double standard thats false?


edit: lol oh ok, I read it again, and I see what you think you're talking about. Please notice that I stated "if someone wanted to make those arguments ....", so I wasn't referencing anyone in specific, let alone a hater of sasuke haters. My point was that Naruto can be called overpowered now as he is yet I see none of those "crusaders" protesting or complaining about this case... In fact I clearly stated that I haven't read any posts about it at all, I specifically made a joke saying all we hear are "crickets". (again, Im not complaining about his powers ) So, "in short", understand what you're responding to before you actually respond to it. (or at least ask for clarification like I did)

I know, but I am.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by james0246

Amen to that. Here's hoping that Sasuke becomes even more powerful just so that when falls, he falls hard...

What is Sasuke going to do? Gain EMS, master every element and master the forbidden jutsus just so Naruto by some means send him flying into a spiky rock head first killing Sasuke?

[Blank-Mage]

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

^I agree. Fighting Nagato gave naruto the theory(his "answer"), Sasuke will give naruto the chance to put it to practice.

I agree, although I'm of the opinion that this question was a no-brainer, particularly for a shonen character. He might be an idiot, but he was never hesitant about his philosophy before. Besides, I fail to see how killing Pein continues the chain of hatred. I mean, he doesn't exactly have many friends who'd want to avenge him, Konan aside. I'm all for love and peace, but killing a mass murderer hardly makes you one yourself.

But hey, nothing's better than the old anime philosophy fight. First one to go wide eyed, loses!

[Hanzoman]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

I know, but I am.

....Why? Like I said, pretty much no one has been even complaining about it... Let alone the group you're talking about... Why declare that people are guilty of a double standard for doing something... when pretty much none of them are even doing it?

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

....Why? Like I said, pretty much no one has been even complaining about it... Let alone the group you're talking about... Why declare that people are guilty of a double standard for doing something... when pretty much none of them are even doing it?

They are hypocrites, for they complain about "Sasuke's this and Sasuke's that," but when Naruto does it, its like your joke, nothing but the sound of crickets. Sorry for the confusion.

[Hanzoman]

^ lol, when you stated "I hate sasuke hater camp" I read it as a group of people who hate "Sasuke haters", not a group of people who hate Sasuke lol. That is what you meant right? If so, I'm sorry for the confusion also...

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

What is Sasuke going to do? Gain EMS, master every element and master the forbidden jutsus just so Naruto by some means send him flying into a spiky rock head first killing Sasuke?

No, if Naruto is going to defeat Sasuke (or for the people that want Sasuke to defeat Naruto), it is the most meaningful only when the opponent being fought is at their strongest. To put it another way, the only way to end the constant Naruto v Sasuke (though it has cooled down recently) debates is if we can finally see them fight at their absolute strength and potential. That way, the fans will finally have their answer (unless Kishimoto takes the S.cry.eD route...which I guess wouldn't be that bad, even if it were a little disappointing).

In other words, I want a satisfying fight in which both characters give their utmost.

[Hanzoman]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

He is supposed to be the leader of a military organization and he seems to be old enough too. So he had to see many deaths in the ninja wars, where ninja were used as "tools" of war (as explained by Kakashi).

Many deaths where (for all we know) he also may have shed a tear or two for a nin that may have been close to him. I don’t see what this has to do with him allegedly being an “idiot” for crying over a loved one.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

So ninjas who reach such high positions are mostly people who can hide their emotions quite well, they are ruled by logic and never show their emotions to others since it's a sign of weakness.

Are ninja’s not allowed to have weak points? I don’t see how someone can be an “idiot” for having weak points.

Sai, a ninja conditioned so rigorously, he has practically no emotions. Sasuke was still able to get him to expose a bit of it using genjitsu. Sai showed a bit of weakness; but I don’t see how he can be called an “idiot”. Itachi, a genius among geniuses, cried after killing his family – showing emotion. He can be a ruthless killer when necessary, but he obviously has a soft spot for his family, and he showed his emotion and cried. I don’t see how he can be called an “idiot”. Shikamaru, probably the most intelligent ninja in Konoha showed his emotion and cried over a loved one, his sensei. I don’t see why he should be called an idiot.

I can understand how someone showing their emotions and crying might look “weak” to another person. I can understand that ninja are trained to hide their emotions under intense situations. I can even understand if someone was to call him a little bitch, or crybaby (not that I think he is, but I can see the reasoning). But I’m still waiting for you to explain why you think he is an “Idiot” for crying over a loved one? That, is what I do not understand.

[Gamma_Sennin]

Lets compare our 2 overpowered main characters

Naruto

- Sage Mode > Strengthens NinJutsu, Inceased durability, Healing, Speed, Strength, Greater range for his taijutsu with frog katas, heightened chakra sensing ability.. (Only weakness is the time limit, and the innablity to activate during battle which has somewhat already been solved)
- FRS > Pretty much one hitter (Weakness uses too much chakra)
- Kyuubi > limitless supply of chakra, increased strength, speed, abilty to blast opponents with chakra and kyuubi death ball (Weakness is basically loosing his sanity not being able to tell friend from foe, also the damage to his body, which was absent recently)

Sasuke

Sharingan - Well its ability read attacks and copy ninjutsu..
MS - Tsykuomi (Supposedly unbreakable without sharigan,) Ametarasu (An Instant attack which consumes everything and is unable to be removed without either MS or Sealing) and possibly susanoo but that is yet to be seen (now that is one overpowered jutsu R.I.P Itachi) its obvious weakness is the blindness
Kirin - Pretty much similiar to FRS with the fact that it is a one hitter jutsu, however this can be used with little chakra which probably makes it better in many ways... major weakness is the prep time
EMS - Well little is known apart from the fact u loose the weakness of blindness and u attain a new ability

Personally apart from kyuubi and EMS which at this point are abilities they can potential harness but for there own reason's are not willing to use or cant use... they stand against eachother atm equally haxed... It's hard to be a fan of many of the side characters atm seeing as these two Are extremely overpowered in comparison... apart from shika who has oodles of coolness and doesnt need nething to strengthen his stature, lets sympathize with the likes of TenTen/Lee or neji.. hell even the once fabled Garaa is saying wtf happened here...

Ive never hated on sasuke, but always embraced his advancements.. as it is through his successes that drives naruto to overcome them.. In the end this battle is going to be close no matter what special abilities they have, but seeing them develop just makes the anticipation that much more mouth watering...

[Mr. Johnny 5]

He just something popped my mind...if you look at the previous Hokages and from what we know were the 1st and 2nd Hokage probably busy with reinforcing the village to counter the enemy's to counter ninja wars and conflicts.

The 3rd has made the village probably only strong enough to counter those (outside) attacks and possibly didnt interfere with other affaires of other nations..I know nothing of the 4th's period it was probably to short...The 5th is pretty much the same as Sandaime (3rd).

But Naruto....what he shouted at Ino's dad...if he becomes Hokage...i'll think the Konoha Shinobi will act somewhat like the Red Cross..or U.N. ...Naruto clearly would want every battle to stop. Even if he has to do it himself. While Danzou most definetly wants to show the world the power of Konoha by attacking others...

[-Sho-]

Well , naruto is the main character so obviously he will beat Sasuke . I think that the battle will be great , they'll fight with full power , but Naruto with his will , he'll beat him in the last attack instead of Sasuke when he first beat Naruto .

[SpyderSidiouss]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Sennin

Personally apart from kyuubi and EMS which at this point are abilities they can potential harness but for there own reason's are not willing to use or cant use... they stand against eachother atm equally haxed...

lol kk, Im not complaining, but they are not equally "haxed". Naruto has 2 sources of unlimited chakra on top of his own MASSIVE chakra pool. Both which also heal all his wounds instantly. Dude just got shot with a sword at point blank range, stood their pulled it out and just stared at Pein lol. Sasuke wouldn't be able to do that.

Naruto just went through an EPIC battle with Pein. An EPIC battle. Pein's got blood stains from blood pouring out of his mouth, and is exhausted. Naruto's standing in front of him crisp and clean, no bruises, no cuts... The guy looks like he has a freakin' manicure and a fresh hair cut. This is one of leaders of Akatsuki here. The people who collect bijuu like they're basketball cards... Sasuke nearly died trying to collect one; and still failed.

The only thing that has a harmful drawback for naruto now is shrouded kyuubi mode(after using it for a while), which he doesn't even really need anyway. The moves of Sasuke that don’t have harmful drawbacks take away a shitload of chakra from him, he doesn’t have 2 sources of unlimited chakra like naruto.

And right now, Naruto is basically as healthy and charged as when he started the fight! He can call the kyuubi's chakra or Sage mode at will, and hes still a crazy handful without them. Sasuke on the other hand, can actually run out of chakra, so he wouldn't be able to do that either. Lets be for real, Sasuke's got skills, but he doesn't have nearly enough stamina to go toe to toe with Pein like this. Its just not happening.

Naruto's so good right now even when he misses someone, he still hits them lmao! And lets not even talk about chapter 431. So no, they are not equally haxed. Hell no lol.



And, for the love of god ero sennin just say you made a mistake using the word "idiot" so the issue can be put to rest! lol

[DarkHollowIchigo]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Yes, swiftly killing a mere human, who was neither fast nor strong, just a mass of meat and blood.

It was a reaction from a ninja in war who was attacked by *in his eyes the enemy*, was this reaction a good one? We could argue about this forever lol.

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by james0246

No, if Naruto is going to defeat Sasuke (or for the people that want Sasuke to defeat Naruto), it is the most meaningful only when the opponent being fought is at their strongest. To put it another way, the only way to end the constant Naruto v Sasuke (though it has cooled down recently) debates is if we can finally see them fight at their absolute strength and potential. That way, the fans will finally have their answer (unless Kishimoto takes the S.cry.eD route...which I guess wouldn't be that bad, even if it were a little disappointing).

In other words, I want a satisfying fight in which both characters give their utmost.

Can't wait to see Sasuke plug his hand in naruto's bowels and twist it! I still think they're equal, Sasuke's not a weakling that would get 1HKO'd and Naruto is strong enough to endure a barrage of jutsus straight at his face.

Sharingan - Well its ability read attacks and copy ninjutsu..

I think it also has the ability to see through genjutsu, but I could be wrong since it was mentioned in the Zabuza fight.