[Manga] Chapter 444 Discussion

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Even Gold Roger died of illness, but you can't really say he failed...in the same way, Itachi did everything he could to help his little brother. If he failed at anything, it was being unable to keep Madara from Sasuke.

Either i've read the worst spoiler i could possibly read as a One Piece anime only person and i am also blind or... you mixed up some names cuz Gold Roger was clearly "killed" and stabbed through the chest when he got executed but... that's just from what i know...the anime only *one piece* person.

[Kafriel]

Well,sorry about that, I tagged it...but it's not really that bad and my point still stands:P

[vic]

Spoiler pics.

Spoiler:

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Well,sorry about that, I tagged it...but it's not really that bad and my point still stands:P

Darn i was hoping you'd say... oh yeah you are correct... i meant Zabuza (as example) even though i would know you would be lying ...

Anyway... so judging from the spoiler... Nagato just activated his rinnegan after his parents were killed? And was never able to turn it off?

Though i guess it's always hate, sadness that triggers these things...such as Mangekyou Sharingan, Super Saiyain.. ahem!..sorry dbz crossed my mind.. Rinnegan and the Kyuubi tails/chakra i was hoping in this case it would be something different or atleast more original...

Also Naruto's eyes are almost similair to the star eyes of Sasuke's MS...or... the chick from Gurren Lagann.

[Justin Kim]

Eh, I was expecting a more better reason as to why he wanted to create all this Pain towards others. The spoilers just seem a little off to me, although some have confirmed it. Meh, I guess the high expectations I had for Pain's reason and cause was downtrodden by those spoilers.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Darn i was hoping you'd say... oh yeah you are correct... i meant Zabuza (as example) even though i would know you would be lying ...

Anyway... so judging from the spoiler... Nagato just activated his rinnegan after his parents were killed? And was never able to turn it off?

Though i guess it's always hate, sadness that triggers these things...such as Mangekyou Sharingan, Super Saiyain.. ahem!..sorry dbz crossed my mind.. Rinnegan and the Kyuubi tails/chakra i was hoping in this case it would be something different or atleast more original...

Also Naruto's eyes are almost similair to the star eyes of Sasuke's MS...or... the chick from Gurren Lagann.

Actually it is not sadness but events that cause either emotional distress (rage, misery, fear) or puts the user's life in danger. Nagato just activated it now because he was scared from dying but he did turn it off it only activated it permanately after his encounter with the rock-nin

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

That last part is a big reason for why it is considered as a failure. Itachi tried to protect Konoha, and Sasuke is going to destroy it. On the opposite he even gave more power to the enemy he created, by also handing him to maybe the biggest enemy of Konoha in golden tray.

And he gave then something to Naruto if this situation was to occur which considering this kind of story will most probably work this time.
On the other hand you're right about the fact that he left things unfinished, like Jiraiya or Minato Itachi is one out of the many powerful ninja who couldn't deal with the root of the problem and died trusting Naruto would find a way.

Originally Posted by Justin Kim

Eh, I was expecting a more better reason as to why he wanted to create all this Pain towards others. The spoilers just seem a little off to me, although some have confirmed it. Meh, I guess the high expectations I had for Pain's reason and cause was downtrodden by those spoilers.

Well this is only the first part, his second great pain will be explained next week, though we already know that it will be about Yahiko's death.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Sounds to me like Madara is the Emperor and Nagato is Darth Pain. I wouldn't be surprised if much of the hatred in the ninja world was a direct result of Madara's own machinations.

Hatred is systematic to their way of living, Madara didn't invent ninja killing each others nor does he control their every actions so he cannot be directly the responsible for everything though I have no doubt we will find out he pulled many strings over the years to make things worse.
That said he is pretty much the living incarnation of the problem.

In fact now that I think about it many Akatsuki seems to be living incarnations of "ninja sins".
Hidan represented kill for the sake of killing, Kakuzu was the kill for money, Deidara loved the fleeting moments of destruction, Sasori was about killing his emotions and human side, Orochimaru is the will to live forever, Itachi was killing for duty, Nagato is the will to inflict pain upon others and Sasuke is well on his way to be revenge and hatred.
Madara represents the ninja system itself, a never ending strife pushing people to their worst.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by vic

Spoiler pics.

Spoiler:

-Wow, Fingernail Lady didn't provide us with these this week. It's all good though. I am somewhat dissapointed at the Naruto Kyuubi Sage hybrid though. It just looks somewhat odd/unappealing from an artistic perspective. Kishimoto could have just kept the Sage mode "eye outlines" and used the vertical line to indicate the Kyuubi influence (coupled with the thicker wiskers) to showcase this. Hopefully this is just pre-liminary stage before he refines the look.

-Based on the summary, not much to complain about. I had a feeling since last week that Nagato was in no mood to talk...yet. Though I question his decision to leave Konan out of the fight. If his goal is to capture the jinchuuriki why is he taking more risks than needed. Granted, it is questionable as to what Konan can do in this situation (it might be the enclosed space making her wide range jutsu less effective).

[Fran~]

ZOMG!!! Kishi did a homage to Diebuster... those are the very same Nono's eyes!!!

Spoiler:

[james0246]

^That is exactly what I thought when I sa them (I also thought of Nia Teppelin's eyes as well, but I realized that her pupils were much thicker). That being said, the eyes are a nice rejoinder to Sasuke's loopy design...

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Hunter

And he gave then something to Naruto if this situation was to occur which considering this kind of story will most probably work this time.
On the other hand you're right about the fact that he left things unfinished, like Jiraiya or Minato Itachi is one out of the many powerful ninja who couldn't deal with the root of the problem and died trusting Naruto would find a way.

I am still not sure about the Naruto part. Sure it will help Naruto, but in what way, to prevent his brother or Madara controlling him and Kyuubi using Sharingan. If that is the only reason, then it may be more like an initially unmotivated action (if Naruto wouldn't be searching for Sasuke, that wouldn't have happened). So, even though the results may happen to be better than what he initially planned, they will still be based on more coincidence than planning ahead.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

looks like Naruto now has his own EMS.
The EMS fusion of the Kyuubi Sharingan and the Sennin Sharingan. LoL

This eye would look probably better on the eye of a Byakugan... which has pretty much no real pupil

[Kafriel]

Next thing you know Naruto's gonna be a gravity child
Well I'd like him to keep at least one weakness and have at least someone to support him, right now Naruto's so strong that the others get in his way, that kinda separates him from his teammates...

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Next thing you know Naruto's gonna be a gravity child

He is, didn't you know Ikki's uncle experimented on Naruto.

I think the eyes are meant to represent silent rage as in he is calm(sage eyes) and angry (kyuubi eyes) at the same time

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

He is, didn't you know Ikki's uncle experimented on Naruto.

I think the eyes are meant to represent silent rage as in he is calm(sage eyes) and angry (kyuubi eyes) at the same time

That doesnt seem possible. It's like being good while doing evil..
Calm goes with harmony of the mind...peace...quiet...silence...
Anger goes with destruction, chaos..hatred...troubled mind..war

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

That doesnt seem possible. It's like being good while doing evil..
Calm goes with harmony of the mind...peace...quiet...silence...
Anger goes with destruction, chaos..hatred...troubled mind..war

Actually it is more of doing bad with good intentions, basically Naruto's heart is full of rage but his mind is calm and can think straight. He has all the advantages of if he was in a full blown out rage but without the lack of control and inability to think things out straight.

An example is Goku and Gohan mastering basic Super Saiyan which when usually activated they are in a state of sadistic, angry, cocky warriors but after mastering it they could retain their original personality

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james0246

Without transplanting the eyes, the MS only leads to blindness, so I doubt Itachi wanted Sasuke to gain the MS. Itachi wanting Sasuke to actually kill him is also debatable considering that Itachi staged the fight so that he would succumb to exhaustion and not Sasuke 'blade'. Rather, Itachi wished for Sasuke to simply live on his life thinking that he had defeated the "big bad" that had destroyed his family, without knowing of Itachi's sacrifice or the family's secret shame.

Amaterasu is something that Itachi have planned (based on Madara's reaction). And considering that this is an MS technique, you cannot give the eye something that it cannot support. So, Sasuke getting MS can be considered one of his plans. For the rest, I think Itachi should be really naive to think along those lines. He didn't do anything to guarantee a follow up to the situation. If this was a fight he planned all along, the result made it look like he hadn't prepared enough. You can say that he didn't have enough time to wrap up everything before the fight, but that brings us to the original concern that it was an prematurely ended fight, with no actual success for Itachi.

Now that the we mention Itachi planning ahead, I started to wonder whether he let Oro live for this purpose too.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

That said he is pretty much the living incarnation of the problem.

In fact now that I think about it many Akatsuki seems to be living incarnations of "ninja sins".
Hidan represented kill for the sake of killing, Kakuzu was the kill for money, Deidara loved the fleeting moments of destruction, Sasori was about killing his emotions and human side, Orochimaru is the will to live forever, Itachi was killing for duty, Nagato is the will to inflict pain upon others and Sasuke is well on his way to be revenge and hatred.
Madara represents the ninja system itself, a never ending strife pushing people to their worst.

Best summary about Madara and akatsuki.

For a shonen manga it would be too complicated and theoretical to write simply about the problem, there must be something or even better somebody who impersonates such complicated things. So i guess this is the best way to tell such a story in a shonen manga. One more reason i think Naruto is a way better shonen manga than any other currently.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Amaterasu is something that Itachi have planned (based on Madara's reaction). And considering that this is an MS technique, you cannot give the eye something that it cannot support. So, Sasuke getting MS can be considered one of his plans. For the rest, I think Itachi should be really naive to think along those lines. He didn't do anything to guarantee a follow up to the situation. If this was a fight he planned all along, the result made it look like he hadn't prepared enough. You can say that he didn't have enough time to wrap up everything before the fight, but that brings us to the original concern that it was an prematurely ended fight, with no actual success for Itachi.

Now that the we mention Itachi planning ahead, I started to wonder whether he let Oro live for this purpose too.

The implanted Amaterasu was only meant to harm Madara, it was not an ability or technique that would give or otherwise force Sasuke's sharingan to evolve. It was simply a fail-safe system that was supposed to catch Madara unaware in hopes of destroying him. But, Itachi did not know that Madara could somehow defeat the flame.

That being said, Itachi never meant to stain Sasuke's hands with blood, and to do this, Itachi, more or less, killed himself in the fight. So, there was no way for Sasuke to have gained the MS just by killing Itachi. Added to that, it was only by learning of the sacrifices that Itachi made for Sasuke that he was able to awaken his own MS, but Itachi never wanted Sasuke to know of the sacrifices. By disallowing Sasuke to have pleasant feelings towards his brother, Itachi was ultimately sealing off the ability to gain the MS using his death.

In the end, Itachi's plans were thrown out of whack by Madara, but even then, Itachi planned ahead for such an event by gifting Naruto with something that will help in a fight against Sasuke.

[Tettsuo]

I can't help but wonder why exactly did Itachi make Sasuke's attack on Madara occur only if he attempts to remove the mask. I'm betting Madara's face isn't even his own anymore. It's probably some heartfelt reflect of the person he's showing his face to. Like a person they care about or trusts is shown to the them when he removes the mask. Which is why he only shows it in private.

Of course I'm guessing at this.