[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

This is like the third time I've gotten that mixed up. Jessica doesn't use Boku though. She uses "Ore" and sometimes a messed up "Watashi". Even though I'm bad at remembering I'm certain of that. So she can only be the first caller then. But that means Genji is mistaken about it being from an outside line if it's either Kanon or Jessica that's the first caller.

Jessica uses "ore"? I only remember her using "watashi"

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

*snip*

I'm relatively certain Jessica doesn't use 'ore'. No woman, ever, uses 'ore'.

And it can't be Rudolf. The caller is identified as sounding young.

Originally Posted by Verg Avesta

Actually, there's something strange here too. Is Hideyoshi actually dead? I know Eva is acting all hysterical, but is it actually possible for Hideyoshi to have died?

Eva only explodes into hysterics for real after Hideyoshi is found. The family only seems to be blaming Natsuhi for anything (instead of just bullying her about Kinzo) after Hideyoshi is found. His death is never actually confirmed, but... perhaps he was supposed to fake his death, but was killed instead?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Jessica uses "ore"? I only remember her using "watashi"

She uses the corrupted 'watashi' when forced to sound polite and 'boku' at all other times, I believe.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Both. In some phrases she uses a corrupted "watashi", in others, she uses "boku".

I just found the quote I was thinking of.

Nobody should listen to me about this Japanese "I" stuff I never get it right.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

And it can't be Rudolf. The caller is identified as sounding young.

Still why can't George whose 23 "sound young"? And why can't Rudolf just fake sounding young for the first call? That's just a trivial description isn't it? It doesn't rule all of them out by itself.

[Jan-Poo]

Think what you want but I'm totally betting that

Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice, man from 19 years before

are all the same person.

[Digdri]

back @ Raiza Sunozaki

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Don't forget. Higurashi and Umineko are supposed to be separate stories. There isn't actually any proof that Bern is in someway related to Rika. There's only fanservice, toyed at on the whim of Ryuukishi.
And if there's one thing we've learned from this, it's that some how, the gold must factor into the motive for killing. Unless Ryuukishi decides to plop a massive plothole in his story and make every character in the story a perfect saint, some one is killing because of the gold. It may not be a direct motive, but it must factor in somehow.

I know a went overboard with the Higurashi comparisons here but Ryu07 at time also likes pointing back to Higurashi a bit to much IMO to just always assume this story never was meant to be compared to it ...obviously much more often for irony and contrasts then similarities so I don't thing its so unlikely that he would construct an non-final-episode by subverting something major from Higurashi.... but actually that was more of a funny additional thought and nothing more. After all its just my opinion that with this idea about "Higurashi's Bernkastel outside of the kakeras" he just created to many similarities to Bern to just call it some fanservice for the lulz. But this actually leading nowhere so back to the other stuff.

I actually don't see why you mentioned the gold as the motive here. After all that WAS part of my constructed scenario as well.

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

There is already proof that the Ushiromiya family is not a group of wonderful people. [...]
Battler knows his family are not the nicest people on the face of the planet. He accepts this in Episode 3, when he starts formulating theories placing the blame of murders on them. What he wants is to see the best in the people he loves, a natural human trait. He wants to trust his opinions of them that they are kind and loving family members, if harsh and strict at times. Episode 2 was the shattering of that image. Episode 3 was his turning point, Episode 4 his maturity stage, Episode 5 the finale of his evolution. If Bern pulls something like that, he'll fight to acknowledge reasons that he can accept for motives for murdering, but will no longer dodge the concept.

I also had no intentions of denying that stuff turn ugly anyways and some people here already did the math and suggested that a complete happy ending for everybody is almost impossible due to major conflicting interests. That IS some big shrewed up family Battler has there. No questions about it. But the question is if the story will hit some middle ground. If Berns influence on EP5 that turned some ambiguous situation with multiple options for the culprit into a over-the-top evil witch hunt again Natsuhi really is any indication this new story won't be about being saints or not but how much everything gets dragged though the mud. And thats not really a question if Battler still would deny the responsibility of some family members.
My point simply was: If the story turns cruel and unfair (and those first infos of EP7 at least hint towards cruel) Battler will step up and get angry about this.... its just his character and we have EP5s conflict all over again.

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

Also, we are given the metaphor of the chess over and over and over again in this series. To do something like showing meta-characters have no control over the pieces on the board would just destroy the faith we have in the concepts Ryuukishi has outlined for us. There's a difference between doing something unusual that changes the formula from something that brakes it.

Of you consider this braking the formula then it got broken long ago. There hasn't ever been a clear association of pieces to the players. Even the one assoziation for Piece-Battler to Meta-Battler has drifted apart more and more so they are 2 totally different characters by now. And then in EP5 Battler gets "remote controlled" by the witches and in EP6 he even kills of his piece. That doesn't resemble chess to me at all.
And if you look closely that chess analogy was never that clear cut at all. What are the "move" in the meta game? At one time they refer to the verbal fights and represent arguments and counter arguments. At another time they refer to what the pieces are doing on the board. But its okay this way as analogys simply brake if you take them too far / too literally. And chess is a good one for what it was meant to convey: a element of strategy and the relevance of logic, planing and analysis to the game.... and its stylish ^^
But IMO "moving the pieces on the board" hasn't been a major factor to this analogy in the later EP compared to the epic word battles and the human side never had much control over pieces anyway. It was always the witches placing their fantasy piece. A little one sided for a chess, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

As I've said before, he's allied with Beato now because once coming to the truth, he realized she was right in what she was doing. I can't say how, as I have not arrived at the truth myself, but it gives us some understanding of Beato's motives for doing all this. And now that he's come to the truth, he can finish his game with her once and for all. In my opinion, Episode 6 was about chasing Bern, Lambda and Erika away so he can finish their game in private. So now that he's suceeded in that, there's no motive for him to play.

I don't see how this argument makes sense. After all Bern is the new GM so he wasn't successful at all in chasing them away and had even more reason to fight again after the show she put up for EP5.

But see that was my main point for suggesting this scenario. After all we have a huuuuge cast for this game but actually from the meta level most of them are just pieces or support characters but we have a really small pool of characters who actually are on the player level. Introducing a new player level character to the mix this late makes little sense as the old conflicts aren't even resolved. And for the rest far to many seem to know far to much about this game already to make this an interesting game for the human side.
Just to sum this up:
- Battler most likely knows the solution.
- Lambda must know the solution.
- Featherinne should know the solution.
- I don't know about new Beatos knowledge without the having read the 2nd half of EP6 but she most likely will be a team up with Battler no matter what.
- Bern may be the only one with incomplete knowledge.

So whats the point in setting up Battler for the human side vs. Bern as GM if he may know more then her anyways?
And I don't what to see this episode getting sidetrack by some ominous stunts on the level of logic error, strange semantic tricks etc. again. After all that seems like the only way to gain the upper hand in discussions with inferior knowledge. And that's cheap.

An as I said I don't see how Battler will take a seat in the audience as he didn't get back to his private match idea at all and he also is the protagonist in the meta world after all.
So this only gives us Bern and him duking it out once again and the questions is who takes which side or Battler again battling against some proxy like Erika.

All in all every combination seem strange without some major change in the whole setup.

Originally Posted by Raiza Sunozaki

I'm sure Battler is right. It would be beyond ridiculous for Ryuukishi to try and troll us with something like that. Think of this as a mystery novel. Batter's realization marks the point where the detective is prepared to announce all the clues he's gathered and determine the culprit. Battler's just taking awhile to actually do that. If right at the end of the novel, just before he's about to do that, someone comes up and says that he's wrong, everyone reading would groan and quite possibly put down the book. A ridiculous plot twist like that belongs in a trashy novel, not a well-planned mystery novel.

Exactly what I said. Everybody would call this twist silly and cheap.
Actually Ryu07 said in some interview that this "And then I knew...." was only put into EP5 this way because EP4 was to subtile about the solvability so in conclusion "the reveal" in the sense of a classic mystery novel should even been possible after EP4 theoretically. It just would have been the most unintuitive and boring talking heads session ever as When They Cry is not meant to work that way

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Still why can't George whose 23 "sound young"? And why can't Rudolf just fake sounding young for the first call? That's just a trivial description isn't it? It doesn't rule all of them out by itself.

Natsuhi says that the caller sounds either like a woman or a young man. It's sort of difficult to imitate something like that as a grown man without falling into a falsetto (especially if you're Jack Bauer) but I'll admit that George might be able to do it.

The question is why he would bother trying to sound fifteen when he's pretending to be nineteen. Most 19-year-olds sound something like, oh, Battler.

This is why I believe it has to be either Kanon or Jessica.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Think what you want but I'm totally betting that

Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice, man from 19 years before

are all the same person.

...Okay, but why bring this up now?

[Jan-Poo]

Because you are discussing about who is the man from 19 years before that make the phone calls?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Because you are discussing about who is the man from 19 years before that make the phone calls?

Right.

Well, yes, it's definitely either Kanon or Jessica. I'd prefer it to be Jessica, since if she actually IS Asumu's daughter that gives her a perfect motive for wanting to harass Natsuhi.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Right.

Well, yes, it's definitely either Kanon or Jessica. I'd prefer it to be Jessica, since if she actually IS Asumu's daughter that gives her a perfect motive for wanting to harass Natsuhi.

Except when the second call comes in, telling Natsuhi to go to the closet, Jessica has been confirmed dead by Virgilia. And if Erika is investigating the cousin's room while Natsuhi is getting the first call (I can't remember this for sure) then it can't be Jessica either, since she's in the bed playing dead.

[Jan-Poo]

Nice point.... I can confirm that the scene where Natsuhi receives the phone call happens after Virgilia confirms everyone's death.
So unless "dead" doesn't mean "dead" then it can't be Jessica.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Marion

Except when the second call comes in, telling Natsuhi to go to the closet, Jessica has been confirmed dead by Virgilia. And if Erika is investigating the cousin's room while Natsuhi is getting the first call (I can't remember this for sure) then it can't be Jessica either, since she's in the bed playing dead.

You mean this red?

So, anyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead

It says nothing about when they died or if anyone even saw them. We don't know if they are dead at this point in time.

EDIT: But this does make for an interesting sword against the Jessica culprit theory. If anyone looking at Jessica's corpse could confirm at a glance she is dead than it's also impossible for her to just be a person playing dead in the second game.

[Renall]

Isn't Virgilia's statement made in a place explicitly stated to be outside space and time?

[Jan-Poo]

Conflicting informations. Even if it was stated the place itself was beyond time and space. The Beatrice found there says that the first twilight had just happened.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

Isn't Virgilia's statement made in a place explicitly stated to be outside space and time?

Except this red is directed at Battler most likely. Besides, you can say the same about any red stated in the game.

[TsundereCake]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

No woman, ever, uses 'ore'.

Except for Ryougi Shiki

[ameskitty]

Yeah, my first hunch for the caller was Kanon, and since first hunches have an odd tendency to be right, I still have a feeling that he's the one doing it. (and if he's always speaking his usual bored monotone around her, then just a bit of "evil" inflection would be enough to put Natsuhi off-guard - on the other hand, it'd be difficult for a mother not to recognize her own daughter's voice)

Why he's doing it or how he knows about all of that is a bit harder to answer. Maybe it slipped during one of his random prank sessions with Kinzo.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Marion

Except this red is directed at Battler most likely. Besides, you can say the same about any red stated in the game.

I don't think Battler was present to hear it. And this is Natsuhi's imaginary Beato Virgilia is talking to. We don't even know what plane she exists on.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I don't think Battler was present to hear it. And this is Natsuhi's imaginary Beato Virgilia is talking to. We don't even know what plane she exists on.

Battler wasn't present to hear it, but if you re-read the scene you can see that Beatrice is confused as to why Virgilia even stated that red. It's implied that Virgilia said to so that Battler would be able to see the red truth, since he's observing the game. If Virgilia isn't directing this red to Battler then there is absolutely no reason for her to even state it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

It's implied that Virgilia said to so that Battler would be able to see the red truth, since he's observing the game.

Alternately, she's saying it for the sake of the player, who may or may not be Battler.

The identity of the person hugging his knees in the first two Hidden Tea Parties is still unknown, remember.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Alternately, she's saying it for the sake of the player, who may or may not be Battler.

The identity of the person hugging his knees in the first two Hidden Tea Parties is still unknown, remember.

the person hugging their knees is the new person in red

But seriously, I do think it was for Battler. That's just me. There is no point in her stating it unless it was directed for someone, so the whole 'timeless space' argument shouldn't really matter. Unless Virgilia is dumb enough to not realize that, but I highly doubt that as well.