2011-12-16, 17:40 | Link #26421 |
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I'm not certain but I believe the 1.5 km crater is not a confirmed thing.
I'm not saying there wasn't an explosion, but rather that, by the nature of the actual explosion, there might be something about it that makes it more apparent it's an accidental explosion then a 900 ton bomb would (and more credible to the press). Now it's a terrain (explosions) that I really don't know well so I'm not in a very good situation to put suggestions. However one thing that always was apparent to me is that you need to climb a lot to reach the mansion and the guesthouse. A much smaller explosion sound like it could've caused a landslide that obliterated everything in the inhabitable region of Rokkenjima. It also at least seems to make the accidental explosion theory more credible. However I have no idea if such a thing is actually possible. |
2011-12-16, 18:00 | Link #26422 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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whether the crater is 1km wide as the tea party claim or just half of that it's still an incredibly huge crater. But you need at least that much to justify the total destruction of the Mansion, the guesthouse and the chapel.
At any rate I really doubt that the crater in Rokkenjima Prime isn't that big. Ange should be aware of what is the official version of what happened on Rokkenjima, and therefore Bern wouldn't be so stupid to present her a scenario that wouldn't fit with what was known to her. Even if that Tea party is completely messed up, at the very least the information that can be easily confirmed (or denied) from outside the catbox should be true.
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2011-12-17, 02:01 | Link #26423 |
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I was under the impression that there was a discrepency between the memories of Ange and ANGE, the later being obviously the one seeing the arc 7 tea party.
Ange should normally know what she saw in Kuwabata's storehouse. ANGE couldn't remember it in arc 6. My impression is that ANGE doesn't have information that didn't appear in the stories, so I don't think she has any more idea then us about whatever occurred in prime. Edit: I want to bring up a ridiculous version of ShKanon that I'm not seriously considering, but I can already see some people saying it wouldn't make less sense then the real thing anyway. It's simple enough too: Everyone (beside Battler) actually knows/figured out long ago that Shannon = Kanon but they find it way too awkward to bring it up, as thus Yasu herself doesn't know that everyone else does know. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-12-17 at 02:25. |
2011-12-17, 02:31 | Link #26424 | ||
The True Culprit
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2011-12-17, 02:59 | Link #26426 | |
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If they have known that Shannon= Kanon then there's no point for them to give that person two paychecks . Wait did they even gave Yasu a paycheck ? |
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2011-12-17, 03:10 | Link #26427 | ||
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Way to be an asshole and insult me for making a legitimate criticism by the way. Quote:
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2011-12-17, 04:15 | Link #26428 | |
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Random theory. I think Eva's diary was a fake and someone just create a lie regarding the diary. It's possible that someone deduced something like If Maria have a diary then Eva must have one too. In reality Eva never really have one. But that person didn't drop the idea though. So after Eva's death that certain person created a Diary that he/she claimed to be Eva's diary. That person even told them that the truth of Rokkenjima incident was written on it. But what's really written is just a fan-fiction. |
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2011-12-17, 04:22 | Link #26429 | ||
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Besides, aside from being young, Krauss and Natsuhi believe she is a normal servant. Why WOULDN'T she get a paycheck, and why wouldn't Yasu complain or atleast bring it up in passing or get bullied about it or something? Quote:
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2011-12-17, 08:25 | Link #26430 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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That's a very difficult question to answer for me. Featherinne used the red truth about Eva's diary, but what world was she referring to? And what kind of trickery Ruukishi could have imagined this time to render it meaningless?
In the end we also have a red truth that states that Ange would never meet Battler ever again. Another personality trick I guess because technically Battler is still alive from a few other phylosophical approaches on the issue (and who says that the personality one is the TRUTH? Who decided that?) Featherinne might have just been talking about the metaphysical diary that Ange gets from the chapel (which by the way it was supposed to be a story Battler wrote for Beatrice in EP6, and the personofication of Beatrice herself in EP7, how the hell it became Eva's diary in EP8?) Even then we can find another loophole. If it's a meta-diary and not a real diary existing on Rokkenjima the truth of which world is it containing? I know that all these questions show a basic lack of trust on Ryuukishi. But can we really trust him at this point? Can we really trust his red truths? I wish we could, but I don't think that we can do that with confidence after all the things he did with it.
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2011-12-17, 10:25 | Link #26431 | |
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That said, what I wrote was obvious not very serious, I was really just bringing up the point that facing ShKanon about the truth would be exremly akward. |
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2011-12-17, 13:21 | Link #26432 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I know that I'm far from the first person to suggest something like this, and I'm not certain about a lot of details; but now there is no doubt in my mind that an innocent murder game/prank is at the center of these mysteries.
I was showing the Umineko anime to my friend yesterday, and what really struck me was that once I was thinking about Maria's behavior in the context of the murders all being fake, her falsely sinister atmosphere felt exactly the same as the falsely sinister atmosphere around Rena in Onikakushi-hen. Maria is not insane. She acts like the murders are just a game not because she's delusional, but because they really are just a game and she knows it. I'm thinking all of Legend's murders were fake, from start to finish. Turn's probably as well. Not a single person really died even once in those stories. When XXX is dead was spoken, it was entirely within context of the game... which might seem like an erroneous idea but, if you think about it, it's very similar to Kanon is dead. They are all just murder game characters; it's not sometimes "personality death" and sometimes "real death", but across the board it's always "game death" whether it's Krauss playing possum or Kanon disappearing or whatever. It's similar to how Reds like "When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit" can only be 'game rules' that can have no authority in real life. Murder Game Theory covers motives pretty well, too. The questions are "Who was in on what, and when?" and "Did real killings occur and, if they did, when?" It also puts a new spin on Erika. Let's say she knows it's a murder game; she knows that no one actually died in End, but is merely trying to win the game by creating a human explanation for the "murders". This idea explains how she can be so intelligent but yet not be interested in corpses, because she'd rather win the game than expose it. Even in episode 6, her "killing" the 5 fakers never happened except in the context of the game. Maybe her "killing" them was just a hypothetical: "But what if I did this? You know I could have, so I say you're obligated have to come up with an explanation." Or it's something like she just walked up to the fakers and said "tag, you're decapitated" without actually killing them. In either case, it all of the sudden makes Erika not so evil at all (even Piece-Erika in EP6); she might be snobby, but she's just playing an innocent game. I'm thinking that what happened on R-Prime started with an innocent murder game. However, the game was so realistic that the victim(s) of the prank thought that the murders were real. Combined with the appearance of the mountain of gold and other factors, there was an atmosphere of intense paranoia. Someone snapped and actually killed someone else in what they thought was self-defense (maybe it was even Battler himself, which would explain the suppression of his memory, especially if he later found out that it was all just a game which he killed for... I mean, how fucked up would that be?) Things got out of control, and there finally ended up a situation where, between a combination of fake murders and real killings, someone misunderstood themselves to be the only person left on the island and flipped the switch to cover the evidence. This of course covers motive for everyone, and it explains Yasu's sense of responsibility for the incident. It can even explain how Maria and Gohda can be killed (someone thought they were dead already). However, it's still hard to see someone knowing about the bomb switch but not the murder game. It also makes Yasu's survival, which I have long believed, hard to explain. And there's also that Eva and Battler both seemed to avoid the blast independently. |
2011-12-17, 14:19 | Link #26433 |
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well welcome to the club Wanderer, that's what I've been thinking for a long while, except I'm not so sure Erika didn't actually killed the people in EP6 (even if she did, she still killed characters in a game, anyway).
I know in the past I've been saying that "dead" in the contest of umineko could just mean "dead" as a player. Like people playing a RPG and saying "nooo, I'm dead!" "yes, I killed you!" Still it's not clear if that's the case and you can say that in red. If it's so, then there must be some kind of rule that prevents "dead" player to affect the game board. In other words once they are "dead" they must act as dead for the whole duration of the game. Sort of like paintball, except you can't move at all (it must suck). This second possibility however would lead to a very mindboggling scenario: people can "fake" to be dead even if they are not "dead", and by "dead" I mean not really "dead" but "dead" like in a game. @_@ Well, that's more or less what Mion did in that zombie game in Higurashi.
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2011-12-17, 14:54 | Link #26434 | |
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But yeah, I don't think Shkanon ever existed in the real world because even if Krauss had a good humor about it, he's also flat broke, and two paychecks is a little much. Unless she was working two shifts. Then it's a clever way to avoid paying time and a half. Aha! I've cracked it! Yasu played at being Shannon and Kanon as a favor for Krauss and Natsuhi, since paying one servant for two shifts would require them to pay her overtime rates!
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2011-12-17, 15:06 | Link #26435 | |
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2011-12-17, 15:26 | Link #26436 | |
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2011-12-17, 15:32 | Link #26437 |
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Well this setup makes some sense but at the same time...
I mean what exactly is this, Yasu is writing stories about theorical games that the entire family would play, and then they really played it and it went badly and everyone died (and tho it's a game there really is a bomb?). Well it's not really making less sense then current scenario I guess, but I really wonder if this is the case is a Rokkenjima prime even necessary? Considering the red tho, I've theorized before that it applies to the narrative itself and not the true reality (as in, Beatrice is trying to tell a story through the whole of the narrative). But yeah it makes a lot of sense nonetheless when thinking about the "I saw Kanon but it wasn't Kanon" thing from arc 2. That just means that you see visually what you accept as such, which makes the ShKanon trick much easier too. |
2011-12-17, 16:49 | Link #26439 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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The motive of Yasu or whoever for the 4th,5th,6th Twilights in Turn is particularly difficult to explain with this. |
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2011-12-17, 17:14 | Link #26440 |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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I guess I'm the only one who's weird enough to think there were to people involved in the games but the characters we saw were merely characters of a tale or of a roleplay and not real people with real feelings or real freedom of action and, apart from having them to stay 'in character' Battler and Beato (or Bern or Lambda or Erika) could move them as they preferred... were 'move' means merely saying what they were doing and, according to how detailed they were or weren't they could or couldn't retroactively add details to their actions...
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