[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

>Even then the blog-author already talked of the Taiwan-theory being one among many, so it was already heavily discussed.

Well, it is a comment under the blog. You need to know the solution to even find that comment amount the others (searching for the Lord U).
There is no word "Taiwan" on the whole page. Anyway, there is no mention of Taiwan before game 7, is there? Therefore how does the reader even get the key for solving it? Chech the map of the whole world for sweetfish rivers?

There was a flashback in Episode 5 where Natsuhi and Krauss were visiting Taiwan and talked about how it was where Kinzo spent a large portion of his life.

>Ryukishi can even say in red that the culprit is Sayo but this can't force people to believe it.

Well, that will just mean, that the whole game is broken and it isn't solvable.

Not really. Like we said before, many people (Me included) came to believe in Sayotrice long before the manga came out. In fact, it was Episode 5 that made me decide that I definitely thought that Shannon was the culprit. It is solvable, what about that makes it unsolvable? The fact that people don't want it to have that solution and make up their own? Umineko follows all of it's own rules, and a lot of people solved it using those rules. (Another thing, Umineko's tagline was literally "No Knox, No Dine, No Fair," so even if it broke Knox and Dine, it wouldn't at all be surprising.)

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

There was a flashback in Episode 5 where Natsuhi and Krauss were visiting Taiwan and talked about how it was where Kinzo spent a large portion of his life.

In the manga?
I've searched the sourse files for 1-4 and 5-6 games. No Taiwan in there.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

In the manga?
I've searched the sourse files for 1-4 and 5-6 games. No Taiwan in there.

No, it was in the Visual Novel. They were literally vacationing there, and chewing the, uh.. Beans. I forget what they were called, but Krauss wanted to share one with Natsuhi and she didn't want to- Until she found out the romantic meaning behind the actions. In fact, I remember this so vividly because I loved the scene in the VN and was disappointed when it wasn't in the manga.

[jTiKey]

Not really. Like we said before, many people (Me included) came to believe in Sayotrice long before the manga came out. In fact, it was Episode 5 that made me decide that I definitely thought that Shannon was the culprit. It is solvable, what about that makes it unsolvable? The fact that people don't want it to have that solution and make up their own? Umineko follows all of it's own rules, and a lot of people solved it using those rules. (Another thing, Umineko's tagline was literally "No Knox, No Dine, No Fair," so even if it broke Knox and Dine, it wouldn't at all be surprising.)

That is the problem. You are fine with Sayotrice, cuz you don't care about the gameboard. Sayo ignores all red on the board. People that watched\read umineko for the puzzle, are dissapointed, that the solution DOESN"T care about the red rules that were the main plot line for 7 episodes.

Imma search for that scene with Natsuhi and Krauss then. Thx for the info.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

That is the problem. You are fine with Sayotrice, cuz you don't care about the gameboard. Sayo ignores all red on the board. People that watched\read umineko for the puzzle, are dissapointed, that the solution DOESN"T care about the red rules that were the main plot line for 7 episodes.

Really? I don't? Interesting, the reason that I decided that I definitely believed in Shannon as the culprit was because I went back, and started applying Shannon/Kanon to the murders in the original games- And they fit like a glove. In fact, if it weren't for the fact that Kanon as the culprit made Eva and Hideyoshi's death work to absolute perfection, I probably would have continued to believe in Rosatrice. (Rosatrice's explanation for a lot of the murders are really far-stretched, you must admit.) Either way, Episode 7 wouldn't have been anywhere near as beautiful with Rosa as the culprit, so I'm glad I changed my mind.

As someone who has watched the KNM videos and actually believed in his theory for a brief while (Like I said, before I changed my mind in EP5), I don't actually think Sayotrice contradicts any Red at all.

[AuraTwilight]

>EP1 makes it clear that Sayo is Shannon's real name
It is you, Sayotrice believers, who say that the death of Shannon =\= death of Sayo. Therefore, Shannon =\= Sayo. Read some logic books or smth. But it is useless. You have your own logic. nothing to debate about here.

Literally nobody has said that, ever. "The death of Shannon =/= death of Sayo" is distinctly different from "The death of Shannon =/= death of Yasu or Kanon."

Even then it doesn't fucking matter, because "Battler and Ange both died in Red" but it only referred to identity death.

>And why do you need Sayo to be mentioned for it to count as her development?
Cuz Vine Dine says those kind of characters are forbidden to be the culprit. Nicknames don't commit murder. If a person is paranoic and makes imaginary characters - you cant blame them for commiting a crime.

Van Dine doesn't apply to Umineko, as it already breaks several of it's rules, such as the inclusion of a love story.

Hell, Will's retirement as an executioner is pretty strongly symbolic of the Dine rules' irrelevance to the gameboard, isn't it?

>Japanese mystery novels...
Well, Ryuu did mention Knox and Dine to be effective in his novel. That what i check. I don't compare it with other works.

He did no such thing. He confirmed Knox's effectiveness, only.

>Even then the blog-author already talked of the Taiwan-theory being one among many, so it was already heavily discussed.

Well, it is a comment under the blog. You need to know the solution to even find that comment amount the others (searching for the Lord U).
There is no word "Taiwan" on the whole page. Anyway, there is no mention of Taiwan before game 7, is there? Therefore how does the reader even get the key for solving it? Chech the map of the whole world for sweetfish rivers?

Not the whole world, just Japan. And the sweetfish river thing was a Japanese word pun. If you spoke the language and checked an atlas, it being a certain railroad is actually pretty obvious since it's the only significant 'river-like' landmark that invokes the Quadrillion motif.

The fact that 'Taiwan Theory' existed since EPisode 3's release only proves it's solvability.

jjblue1, the interviews before were even more worse for Rosatrice. But even then, the same author said:

You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

Well, technically, you can't. That doesn't mean that they're not true, though. A large theme of the novel is trusting people without proof, so at some point you're going to need to trust what the white text tells you in order to get the truth.

You also have to take into the account that the "Can't trust anything" red was said by a cynical, heartless and loveless character, while in interviews Ryukishi has expressed disappointment in people who only listen to what the Red says.

That is the problem. You are fine with Sayotrice, cuz you don't care about the gameboard. Sayo ignores all red on the board. People that watched\read umineko for the puzzle, are dissapointed, that the solution DOESN"T care about the red rules that were the main plot line for 7 episodes.

It fits the Red rules fine.

The hilarious thing is, nowhere in Umineko is there a Red statement that says "This game follows Knox rules." All that is technically said in red is the rules themselves...which...yea. That is Knox's first rule, or whatever. You can truthfully say that in red. That doesn't mean it canonically applies to the gameboard.

Of course, as I said earlier, I still believe Knox rules apply to it, but it's kind of interesting how you're willing to accept some things as a matter of course, but not others. Sayotrice doesn't break a single Knox rule; serious Mystery lovers will tell you that. You might think it's a stupid theory, but it doesn't violate anything, and a lot of people have guessed it since atleast as early as episode 2's release.

Name a single red Sayotrice ignores. Name one. Identity death stuff doesn't count because it's been used for other characters.

[jTiKey]

hey look! Lion and Sayo share the same birthday:

[jjblue1]

Should we also mention that Umineko tweaked slightly with Knox so that the so called Knox rules used in Umineko aren't exactly the original decalogue?
The overall meaning is more or less preserved but what get stated in red is not the original Knox.

Also, why all this worshipping of Knox and Van Dine? Agatha Christie happily stepped over Van Dine more than once. Are we going to argue she's not a mystery writer?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

hey look! Lion and Sayo share the same birthday:

This is meaningful, really. Because we weren't told in Ep 7 that Genji purposely changed Sayo's birthday so that Natsuhi wouldn't connect her and Lion, do we?
We also weren't told in Ep 7 that Lion is nothing else but Clair's dream, a dream she could have started making only after she solved the epitaph, which coincidentally was solved on that date...

Originally Posted by jTiKey

>>Ryukishi can even say in red that the culprit is Sayo but this can't force people to believe it.

Well, that will just mean, that the whole game is broken and it isn't solvable.

Then all the mysteries are broken and unsolvable because you can't force anyone to believe the official solutions.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

jjblue1, the interviews before were even more worse for Rosatrice. But even then, the same author said:

You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

Also, people ignore Ryuu's first interviews, where he stated, he won't give any direct solution to his game.

Care to explain me why you're shooting down an interview by using another interview? What makes one more believable than the other, apart that you likes one and not the other?

[jTiKey]

>why all this worshipping of Knox and Van Dine?
Ryuu did imply them with red truth, not us >_>

>Because we weren't told in Ep 7 that Genji purposely changed Sayo's birthday so that Natsuhi wouldn't connect her and Lion, do we?

Because Natsuhi knew his birthday lol That was the most important informtion she had to remember.
It is written, he changed the year, not the date.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

hey look! Lion and Sayo share the same birthday:

I have only one thing to add to jjblue's post,
07151129

Battler himself mentioned that it is not the birthday of anybody from the island he'd know of in EP3

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Any link of somebody solving the epitaph before the 6-7the games?

Regarding a link that proves that the epitaph was solved before episode 6 you just need to make a search for the word "qilian" in this very forum.

In this page: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...an#post2820148

Is where I remember discussing the theory the first time, Qilian Quadrillion and Lord U are mentioned and the way to obtain them.

The animesuki forum doesn't lie, the date is 2009 before EP6 was released. It is impossible to edit a post without causing a notice to appear that tells exactly the date of the last edit.

Remember also that we were discussing something that was already proposed on Japanese boards before, so the actual date is even earlier.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I have only one thing to add to jjblue's post,
07151129

Battler himself mentioned that it is not the birthday of anybody from the island he'd know of in EP3

Should we also add that one is Beatrice's birthday as well?
And that again it was implied Beatrice had birth when the epitaph was solved? Same as Lion?

[Levani]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Regarding a link that proves that the epitaph was solved before episode 6 you just need to make a search for the word "qilian" in this very forum.

In this page: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...an#post2820148

Is where I remember discussing the theory the first time, Qilian Quadrillion and Lord U are mentioned and the way to obtain them.

The animesuki forum doesn't lie, the date is 2009 before EP6 was released. It is impossible to edit a post without causing a notice to appear that tells exactly the date of the last edit.

Remember also that we were discussing something that was already proposed on Japanese boards before, so the actual date is even earlier.

So fun, I knew you were a veteran member and Renall too but still, 2009... you guys rock xD

Where's Aura? He should be posting in 2009 too right?

[jTiKey]

Friend shower few gold post from this forum. I love this. So much interesting information.

AuraTwilight is my fav poster. I might translate some for the russian community XD

[jjblue1]

By the way, has everyone realized that the manga is almost finished?
As of now we're missing only the following scenes:

1A) Ange making her choice and opening one door

1B) Eva, Battler and Erika saying their goodbye (which might be in the same chapter as Ange making her choice)

1C) Hachijo tells she won't reveal the truth (same as before, it could all be in one single chapter)

2) Trick ending (if they include it)

3) Battler & Beato leave the submarine base

4) Ange doesn't jump but leave for a travel

5) Lambda, Bern and Erika spend some quality time together

6A) Ange becomes a writer

6B) Ange and Tohya meet (which might be in the same chapter as the previous)

6C) Tohya goes to the orphanage (which might be in the same chapter as the previous)

This means if everything is kept and nothing is added we've still around 6/10 chapters before the manga will be finished.

Of course Ryukishi might consider adding new stuffs. I wouldn't mind them.

He also might consider removing the trick ending.

(BTW by re-reading the trick ending I found rather interesting how Erika seems nothing else but an alternate version of Ange... in a way the two are constructed to be pretty similar in some regards. If it wasn't because there was a Furudo Erika who drowned I might think at Erika as another Meta version of Ange, one that had grown twisted and bitter....)

[Mali]

After reading some post I would like to ask:
What if the original Sayo was a siamese twin. I mean... one body and two person. Are there any theories in the past?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

After reading some post I would like to ask:
What if the original Sayo was a siamese twin. I mean... one body and two person. Are there any theories in the past?

You mean one of those Siamese twins that ends up reabsorbing their own twin or something so popular in horror movie?
Well, I don't think that's the case (also fate hates her enough so I think this would be an overkill...)

[Mali]

No not that. I don't know of any horror movie you mentioned.

Well Umineko had hints about rare physical anomalies like polydactyly and Shanon and Kanon were described as "twins". I had a thought about Sayo and Kanon merged together around their genitial area. After birth they were separated. This can explain their inablility to love AND they were one human once (meaning Shanon and Kanon regard themself as incomplete).

(also fate hates her enough so I think this would be an overkill...)

Oh god what did I done?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

No not that. I don't know of any horror movie you mentioned.

In horror movies there's this nice guy who all of sudden discovers something strange is happening around him. People suspect him but he's sure he's innocent.
It turns out that he was actually 1 of a set of twins... only the other twin never parted from him but was somehow absorbed inside him (don't ask how it works) and now is taking control of his body to do his evil deeds...

According to the movie the evil twin will either take complete control but pretend he died, be killed as the nice guy will manage to estirpate him from his body, they'll die together as they can't be parted.

There was also one in which the twin divided enough so as to be visible but it was underdeveloped and it was only a head and a arm attached to the other twin's stomach... Needless to say it was evil. His twin killed him effectively killing himself.

Originally Posted by Mali

Well Umineko had hints about rare physical anomalies like polydactyly and Shanon and Kanon were described as "twins". I had a thought about Sayo and Kanon merged together around their genitial area. After birth they were separated. This can explain their inablility to love AND they were one human once (meaning Shanon and Kanon regard themself as incomplete)

Well, but already in Ep 1 they're stated as not biologically related and just considering each other siblings merely out of affection...

[Mali]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, but already in Ep 1 they're stated as not biologically related and just considering each other siblings merely out of affection...

I looked up the wiki page again. It says siamese twins are always identical twins. This means twins can be male-only or female-only.
Mmh, it's pointelss to discuss about their gender and sex if there are debates about it already.(?)