Claymore Chapter 100

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

I can't tell if you agree or disagree with me Revan . You say you disagree with me, but you're points basically do the opposite . (...)

Not really. You wrote:

Originally Posted by Shiek927

......Nah, that's too much of a cop-out.

I sort of semi-ranted about it just now; being able to access all your powers without fear of losing your humanity?

Maybe if it wasn't the bulk of their powers, it wouldn't be so bad(hence, "half"), but I don't really like that idea. I don't want their to be an "easy way out" when it comes to Awakening.

You were the one that didn't read carefully. I didn't write that "Clare could access all her powers without fear of awakening" but that she might have access to all her powers while still remaining human. I didn't write that Clare could awaken without consequences (only that she could access 100% of her powers and fight in such state) and I didn't write that she wouldn't have to fear of awakening. She would be at the point where she wouldn't awaken but a while earlier the risk of awakening could be high. As Revan wrote it still wouldn't be an easy way out because to reach this point claymore would have to endure a lot and it still wouldn't guarantee him success. What's more Clare is special (she's 1/4th youma) so maybe the same rules don't apply to her as to the rest of claymores and achieving such a feat would be easier to her. But because she was 1/4th youma she had a harsh start and was handicapped at first which again proves that it wouldn't be an easy way.

So to put it simply you wrote that Clare having access to all her powers would be too convenient and without consequences and Revan was stating otherwise and I didn't write what DragoZERO wrote.

[Shiek927]

Well, at least this is getting cleared up

I think my confusion and misinterpretation came from this part:

Originally Posted by Gooral

You were the one that didn't read carefully. I didn't write that "Clare could access all her powers without fear of awakening" but that she might have access to all her powers while still remaining human. I didn't write that Clare could awaken without consequences (only that she could access 100% of her powers and fight in such state) and I didn't write that she wouldn't have to fear of awakening.

Isn't that basically the same thing? being able use all her powers while still remaining human? Unless it's along the lines of what Revan was saying, how she would only have access to what she is now capable of, because she lost her chance at her full power by becoming a half-awakened.

(It's kind of funny how we're talking about her awakening so much, when it looks like she can't )

[DragoZERO]

Well, I am really just curious what Clare, and the others, would look like fully awakened.



I do agree with Shiek that it would be way to convienent. One of the charms in this manga is that the heroes are not super powered.

[Joe_fh]

Wait I don't get the point of revan5's post.
I mean it's obvious half awakening gives you some power and fully awakening gives you a lot more power and a lot more advantages. No one argued that their lives haven't been though or anything like that. But actually what does that have to do with the thing Shiek said? When he implied "no danger" he was talking about a copletely different thing or so I believe. It was a misunderstanidng as it turned out be he still has a point. Not that I don't agree with what you said but I sort of missed the point^^

And about your previous post as to why not use partly awakened claymores to fight on the mainland? Well the answer is easy - first because they probably don't know about them( but that's obvious so need to mention it) and also because partly awakened Claymores can and will fully awaken once they go past their limit. That's why this chapter is so wiered and everyone is talking about why Clare didn't awaken. So half awakened Claymores that awaken is almost the same as normal Claymores that completely awaken - the only difference is that the HA ones would fight a bit longer to reach their limit. In the long run that doesn't make a difference. HA would make great subjects for further development of Claymores and going past thier limits and still be unfer control but only as test subjects and not as warriors, or so I believe.
Also atacking a far stronger enemy with numbers would be completely usless provided the enemy is far stronger than it's attackers - a good example would be the rods and Prissy in that village.

Either way if one could fully awaken use their full power and go back to normal without any problems that would be just lame due to the fact the the whole idea of awakening in the manga means lossing your humanity. And if you're able to avoid that the whole danger is almost gone or at least the greatest one. That will be just like the awakened AB forms with all the pros and no cons - which I believe will be a bad thing.

And agian let's look at AOs - how are they different than a Claymore? Well they eat human guts. Anything else? We haven't seen anything else that could distinguish them from a person, sorry Claymore. So in fact the thing that makes them "lose their humanity" is the feeding part. As we saw with Riful and even Alicia and Beth even in AB form they still have their feelings like being scared, caring for someone etc. So yes going back and forth between Claymore and full A form while avoiding the issue of becoming an awakened being is a big cop-out.

And anyways how did the 7 ghosts get so strong really? I never thought of that. Did they go past their limits and and riksed their humanity for more power? I highly doubt that since the only reason they went past their limits at any given point was in order to survive so doing it on purpose without facing any danger and instead endangering their friends and themselves wouldn't really make sense. They could still do it but would they really risk so much for power? I understand why Clare powered up after Pieta but everyone else?
If anyone has a good thoery please do share before I start coming up with wiered ones

[revan5]

Originally Posted by Gooral

As Revan wrote it still wouldn't be an easy way out because to reach this point claymore would have to endure a lot and it still wouldn't guarantee him success. What's more Clare is special (she's 1/4th youma) so maybe the same rules don't apply to her as to the rest of claymores and achieving such a feat would be easier to her. But because she was 1/4th youma she had a harsh start and was handicapped at first which again proves that it wouldn't be an easy way.

Actually, if you think about it genetically, Claire's body is now more than 1/4th Yoma. The reason being is that she picked up Irene's arm, which is half Yoma. Claire's body is, due to Teresa's flesh and blood being used, quite literally Teresa's genetic daughter. A full quarter of Claire's DNA now comes straight from Teresa's human side, another quarter comes from Teresa's Yoma side.

So either you can consider Teresa's DNA both her Yoma and human sides, or you consider ONLY her human side this way. In the case of counting both sides of Teresa as her DNA, Claire is quite literally Teresa's daughter genetically. The only difference is that Teresa didn't give birth to Claire to accomplish it. If you consider Teresa's human DNA only, then Claire is more like Teresa's hybrid granddaughter.

With the addition of Irene's arm (and the blood within it) the question needs to be asked, did it affect Claire's DNA? I would say it did at least partially. After all, if Teresa's flesh and blood being put into Claire affected her, why not Irene's? I would suggest that Irene is now genetically related as well to Claire, on a lesser level. So today Claire is probably around 3/10th to 3/8th Yoma genetically after gaining Irene's half-Yoma arm and the blood within it.

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Well, at least this is getting cleared up I think my confusion and misinterpretation came from this part:
.
Isn't that basically the same thing? being able use all her powers while still remaining human? Unless it's along the lines of what Revan was saying, how she would only have access to what she is now capable of, because she lost her chance at her full power by becoming a half-awakened.

(It's kind of funny how we're talking about her awakening so much, when it looks like she can't )

I'm guessing the rule of thumb is going to be that pushing over your limits once and returning effectively ends your chances at fully awakening, or makes it much more difficult. Deneve by this measure is closest to Claire, with Helen and Miria the furthest away.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

And anyways how did the 7 ghosts get so strong really? I never thought of that. Did they go past their limits and and riksed their humanity for more power? I highly doubt that since the only reason they went past their limits at any given point was in order to survive so doing it on purpose without facing any danger and instead endangering their friends and themselves wouldn't really make sense. They could still do it but would they really risk so much for power? I understand why Clare powered up after Pieta but everyone else?
If anyone has a good thoery please do share before I start coming up with wiered ones

They trained? Maybe they ran into stray ABs and fought them? I say they all trained. Helen can use Jean's attack, and Clare can use Flora's. Training is the only way they would learn how to use them.

I do have to say, I love how they use the techniques and styles of their fallen comrades.

[revan5]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

And about your previous post as to why not use partly awakened claymores to fight on the mainland? Well the answer is easy - first because they probably don't know about them( but that's obvious so need to mention it) and also because partly awakened Claymores can and will fully awaken once they go past their limit.

I never said anything about partly awakened warriors being used in the mainland war, I mentioned regular female silver-eyed warriors only. The alliance of nations backing the Organization obviously wouldn't know about partial awakenings...at least, not yet.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

So half awakened Claymores that awaken is almost the same as normal Claymores that completely awaken - the only difference is that the HA ones would fight a bit longer to reach their limit. In the long run that doesn't make a difference.

It makes an immense difference if they cannot awaken their limbs like an Awakened Being can. I thought I made this obvious in my previous posts.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

...be completely usless provided the enemy is far stronger than it's attackers - a good example would be the rods and Prissy in that village.

Precisely how many Dragonkin have we seen in action to come to this judgment of their strength versus hybrid warriors? Here's the deal, more warriors means a greater chance of producing a Teresa or Rafaela. Thus if you can produce a lot, eventually you'll have a core force of immensely powerful warriors. As Renee notes, the lower ranks are replaced all the time. The only near constant is the slow rate of change at the top. If you can produce a massive number of warriors, say like a thousand in a year, then chances are good some of them will survive and become ever more effective against Dragonkin.

If Teresa can kill an ex-No.1 that has awakened, I'd put long odds on her being able to do the same against a Dragonkin of average strength. The other reason for using massive teams of warriors is that Dragonkin fight as part of a tribe, and the evidence suggests they are intelligent, lethal, political and social creatures. If you want to match Dragonkin in the war, hitting them with massed groups of warriors is key.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Either way if one could fully awaken use their full power and go back to normal without any problems that would be just lame due to the fact the the whole idea of awakening in the manga means lossing your humanity. And if you're able to avoid that the whole danger is almost gone or at least the greatest one. That will be just like the awakened AB forms with all the pros and no cons - which I believe will be a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing for the Ghosts, and anyways you're talking about a life-long tension. Claymore must be resolved in some way, and Yagi coming up with a way for the warriors to remain in human forms (even if they aren't really human anymore) is not something we should be fearing. If anything, Yagi's resolving this issue so that we can get to other issues like Dragonkin and the mainland war.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

So yes going back and forth between Claymore and full A form while avoiding the issue of becoming an awakened being is a big cop-out.

Cop-out yeah right. If they can't use Awakened abilities like limb shape modification, awakened projectiles or massively more robust bodies, then it's nothing to brag about. Half-awakened warriors are far easier to kill than their Awakened being alter-egos who have the same Yoki. As I said, imagine an Abyss Eater biting a chunk out of Helen's head. I'm pretty certain if it happened she would die, unlike Awakened Beings like Riful.

[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by revan5

Actually, if you think about it genetically, Claire's body is now more than 1/4th Yoma. The reason being is that she picked up Irene's arm, which is half Yoma. Claire's body is, due to Teresa's flesh and blood being used, quite literally Teresa's genetic daughter. A full quarter of Claire's DNA now comes straight from Teresa's human side, another quarter comes from Teresa's Yoma side.

So either you can consider Teresa's DNA both her Yoma and human sides, or you consider ONLY her human side this way. In the case of counting both sides of Teresa as her DNA, Claire is quite literally Teresa's daughter genetically. The only difference is that Teresa didn't give birth to Claire to accomplish it. If you consider Teresa's human DNA only, then Claire is more like Teresa's hybrid granddaughter.

With the addition of Irene's arm (and the blood within it) the question needs to be asked, did it affect Claire's DNA? I would say it did at least partially. After all, if Teresa's flesh and blood being put into Claire affected her, why not Irene's? I would suggest that Irene is now genetically related as well to Claire, on a lesser level. So today Claire is probably around 3/10th to 3/8th Yoma genetically after gaining Irene's half-Yoma arm and the blood within it.

That's an interesting point^^
However, I don't think irene's arm chnaged Clare's DNA. Techically blood wouldn't change the DNA structure whereas Teresa's flesh merged with Clare's body (we still have no idea how) but since it's merged together and all the powers comes from it it's natural to think that it chaged the DNA somehow. I mean just the eye color is enough to see that there have been changes to the DNA. Anyways an arm is just an arm. There isn't any yoma flesh to be fused with the boy and it's attached the same way Claymores reattach their limbs once cut. Than again we have no idea how that actually works so it's still possible.

Originally Posted by revan5

I'm guessing the rule of thumb is going to be that pushing over your limits once and returning effectively ends your chances at fully awakening, or makes it much more difficult. Deneve by this measure is closest to Claire, with Helen and Miria the furthest away.

But that wasn't the rule of thumb in Pieta where Clare lost control of her body and was moments away from completely awakening and she would have if it weren't for Jean. Again that's why this chapter was so wiered

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

They trained? Maybe they ran into stray ABs and fought them? I say they all trained. Helen can use Jean's attack, and Clare can use Flora's. Training is the only way they would learn how to use them.

I do have to say, I love how they use the techniques and styles of their fallen comrades.

Actually figuring out how to use an attack just because you saw it once doesn't seem likely (in Helen's case since Flora and Clare actualy fought and talked to each other so maybe Flora gave Clare a few hints). But that's ok, we've seen them learn new thing by just watching so no problem there. My point is how they got so strong. I mean 7 years of training and their ranks mean absolutely nothing and even Yuma (or Uma...) Cynthia and Tabitha also got way, more powerful. If such radical change could happen only by training than all Claymores could probably reach the rank 1-5 and the whole rank system will fall apart. And if that is indeed the case why isn't the organization training their Claymores for longer periods? It's not like they can't brainwash little girls into complete obidiance...like Alicia and Beth for example.

I always thought that ranks mean a certain power level in general(Raphaela was an excepton) and one couldn't move with 20+ in that scale just because they trained. Not everyone has passed their limit and is half awakened (the three girls I mentioned) thus getting a power boost. There has to be something else that just doesn't change things so much.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Isn't that basically the same thing? being able use all her powers while still remaining human? Unless it's along the lines of what Revan was saying, how she would only have access to what she is now capable of, because she lost her chance at her full power by becoming a half-awakened. (...)

No. DragoZERO was talking about Clare's awakening and going back, I was talking about Clare having access to 100% youki while still being human. Sth along the lines like Priscilla fighting at 80% but without actual awakening and without losing mind. She still wouldn't be able to fly or split her arm and do a plastic-man thing to such extent as she could if she awakened but would have the same strength and speed.

And although such ability would have disadvantages it would still be the best thing claymore could achieve. Besides, having much smaller body and have access to full power could be really useful. If Isley could do that he would probably defeat Abyssal Feeders since the main problem to him was that they could bite him all at once, if he was smaller and as fast and strong as he was in awakened form it would be much easier for him to defend and attack.
If Clare could manage such thing it would just mean she was strong enough to defeat monster inside her and that she achieved sth that was thought to be impossible. I wouldn't call it lame. Don't forget that sth like that was the goal of MiB all along, to have obedient, powerful warriors.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

(...) Either way if one could fully awaken use their full power and go back to normal without any problems that would be just lame due to the fact the the whole idea of awakening in the manga means lossing your humanity.

So is soul-link lame to you? Alicia was losing her humanity only temporarily, it wasn't permanent ergo it didn't have any consequences.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Gooral

No. DragoZERO was talking about Clare's awakening and going back, I was talking about Clare having access to 100% youki while still being human. Sth along the lines like Priscilla fighting at 80% but without actual awakening and without losing mind. She still wouldn't be able to fly or split her arm and do a plastic-man thing to such extent as she could if she awakened but would have the same strength and speed.

And although such ability would have disadvantages it would still be the best thing claymore could achieve. Besides, having much smaller body and have access to full power could be really useful. If Isley could do that he would probably defeat Abyssal Feeders since the main problem to him was that they could bite him all at once, if he was smaller and as fast and strong as he was in awakened form it would be much easier for him to defend and attack.
If Clare could manage such thing it would just mean she was strong enough to defeat monster inside her and that she achieved sth that was thought to be impossible. I wouldn't call it lame. Don't forget that sth like that was the goal of MiB all along, to have obedient, powerful warriors.

Ahhhh, I finally understand you Gooral

It's not quite as affective if she manipulate her body like the others can, but by having access to 100% percent of her youki...she would be a powerful foe.

[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by revan5

I never said anything about partly awakened warriors being used in the mainland war, I mentioned regular female silver-eyed warriors only. The alliance of nations backing the Organization obviously wouldn't know about partial awakenings...at least, not yet.

Yes you asked why not use them. I just gave a reason why they didn't.

Originally Posted by revan5

It makes an immense difference if they cannot awaken their limbs like an Awakened Being can. I thought I made this obvious in my previous posts.

Yes you did and that's obvious. Still I wasn't saying anything that would suggest otherwise. What I was saying (which I believe was pretty clear) is that as far as we know both partly awakened Claymore and regular Claymores can fully awaken and become ABs. The only diffrence is that a partly awakened Claymore would need to fuse more Yoki in order to awaken.

Originally Posted by revan5

Precisely how many Dragonkin have we seen in action to come to this judgment of their strength versus hybrid warriors? Here's the deal, more warriors means a greater chance of producing a Teresa or Rafaela. Thus if you can produce a lot, eventually you'll have a core force of immensely powerful warriors. As Renee notes, the lower ranks are replaced all the time. The only near constant is the slow rate of change at the top. If you can produce a massive number of warriors, say like a thousand in a year, then chances are good some of them will survive and become ever more effective against Dragonkin.

Well yes probably that woudl make a difference. The fact they didn't make more and the fact that there are only 47 Claymores at any given moment would meant that there probably is a reason for that. Maybe Yoma's are made with Dragonkin's flesh in the first place and that limits how many the MiBs can produce in the first place. There are too many unknowns. Either way the fact they didn't would probably mean they can't and furthermore Prissy and Teresa were exceptions and the Org didn't even know how powerfull Teresa actually was. They probably didn't even know how powerful Prissy was until she killed Alicia and Beth. Nothing would usggest that a No1 Claymore is stronger than what the Dragonkin could trow at them. And either way most No1 ended up awakening thus they weren't under the control of the MiBs and mind you only one of them actually awakened due to a failed experiment. The rest did it on thier own which would suggest that No1s are hard to keep under control thus you can't make a lot of them and expect to be able to control them as you will.

Originally Posted by revan5

If Teresa can kill an ex-No.1 that has awakened, I'd put long odds on her being able to do the same against a Dragonkin of average strength. The other reason for using massive teams of warriors is that Dragonkin fight as part of a tribe, and the evidence suggests they are intelligent, lethal, political and social creatures. If you want to match Dragonkin in the war, hitting them with massed groups of warriors is key.

A massed gorup of warriors that is under your control, act as a unit and have the power to rival the enemy.
For all we know they have similar power to a strong AB since the organizatione mentioned using AB's to wipe everything even their own troops as it turned out. But we've seen that regular Claymores need to hunt in gorups to kill one AB. So imagine what a whole unit of expirienced Dragonkin's (since they fight a lot and as you suggested they seem like a tribe thus they probably have traditions in fighting and such) would do to Claymores even if they are in large numbers.

Originally Posted by revan5

It's not a bad thing for the Ghosts, and anyways you're talking about a life-long tension. Claymore must be resolved in some way, and Yagi coming up with a way for the warriors to remain in human forms (even if they aren't really human anymore) is not something we should be fearing. If anything, Yagi's resolving this issue so that we can get to other issues like Dragonkin and the mainland war.

True Claymore would have to be resolved in some way but that doesn't mean Clare and the rest would have to become super powerful heroes that can kill everything they see (except Prissy for now) since that would result either in our heroes being godlike or enemies getting stronger which would mean more power ups for our girls and overall this will result in something that moves furhter and furhter away from what the manga has been up until now.
As DragoZERO put it " One of the charms in this manga is that the heroes are not super powered".

Originally Posted by revan5

Cop-out yeah right. If they can't use Awakened abilities like limb shape modification, awakened projectiles or massively more robust bodies, then it's nothing to brag about. Half-awakened warriors are far easier to kill than their Awakened being alter-egos who have the same Yoki. As I said, imagine an Abyss Eater biting a chunk out of Helen's head. I'm pretty certain if it happened she would die, unlike Awakened Beings like Riful.

Why when they are fully awakened they won't be able to use awakened abilities? Full A(awakened) from wouldmean that they awaken at least that's what I think is natural. I'm saying tha goinng between the two forms like Riful for example but without the whole "losing one's humanity once they past their limit" would be a total cop-out no matter how you look at it. As I said you'll get all the benefits like "like limb shape modification, awakened projectiles or massively more robust bodies" and etc but there are no cons. At least that's the way I see things. From what you said I beieve you didn't quite understand me.

Originally Posted by Gooral

So is soul-link lame to you? Alicia was losing her humanity only temporarily, it wasn't permanent ergo it didn't have any consequences.

Soul link means someone is helping you keep you human side safe. It's actually really intersting as an idea. If one could go back and forth between their two forms the same way an AO or ABs can would mean that awakening would be nothing more that an elite form/ulitmate attack etc. If that happens half the meaning of the manga would be lost and if that happens I can't help but wonder how that won't actually appear lame.
The example with the Soul link is actually really good - a way to make that happen without actually disregarding the dangers of lossing one's self. It's a perfect way to stick to everything we've seen and still get a Claymore going back and forth between normal and AB form. So Soul link isn't at all lame but rather a great idea.

Oh and another thing - from what we've seen up till now there's no way to acces 100% of your yoki without awakening since using yoki even at 30% changes parts of your body. And we have no idea how much yoki Prissy is using and I can't see how she's even close to 80%. It would indeed be interesting as idea but I don't see how that could happen.

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

How can you watch Naruto filler episodes? I'd rather be waterboarded - honest.

I've been thinking about this whole thing about Clare not being able to awaken. It's posible she can't, but lately I'm leaning towards the possiblity it was really Priscilla's doing all along. Here are my reasons:
1) The AB in Pieta could manipulate youki to the extent of trying to make Clare, Deneve and Undine awaken. There is nothing to suggest that an AB's youki manipulation cannot work the other way too (Galatea-sama already proved it's possible). And since Prisiclla is far stronger than that AB was, it's not unimaginable that she can do this trick too - especially if Priscilla was being trained as an Eye.
2) Teasing Clare about not being able to awaken is in line with what we've seen of Priscilla's sense of humor so far. For example when Duff threatens her, she does to him exactly what her threatens her with. To tease Clare about not being able to awaken seems right in line with that.
3) So why would she do this? It's quite clear that she does not want to kill Clare yet - else she'd be dead. The Pieta state also seems to be an annoyance for Priscilla as she has taken some damage due to it. If we assume Priscilla wants to talk for a bit, then it's logical that she doesn't want her to awaken just yet - especially if she wants to ask about Raki or anything else. Besides, Priscilla hates youma more than anyone else, right? Maybe a bit of her old self is coming through.

I still believe in my original theory: Priscilla just stopped to talk on her way to kill Raciella in order to Raki. Thus Raki will be fine (damn it! Priscilla killing the Destroyer will put him right) but held prisoner in Org HQ. The perfect damsel in distress for Clare and the gang to save from the clutches of the firey dragon Org.

As for the power of the MiBs - they have not shown it yet, but we have to assume they are not defensless. Even Teresa did not seem to have any intention in taking on the Org, despite knowing most of it's secrets. In fact, one could assume from the extra chapter, that the Org has defenses roughly on par with that of an Abyssal: Teresa lied about fighting AB Rosemary because that would mean she was stronger than the Org's defenses which would make her a threat to them. The Org deals with threats by trying to eliminate them. By pretending she is not stronger than an AO, she was protecting herself from that, because the Org must have contingencies for Rebels like that.

Very good theory, only for one thing. Maybe you know better because you can read the Japanese version, but Priscilla said she intends to kill Clare.

Spoiler for Scan:

Judging by this scan, it looks to me as if Priscilla would rather kill her to see if that will help her regain her memories. I don't think actually talking to Clare is the first thing on Priscilla's mind, especially when she's not the type who wants to talk about anything. Normally, she just prefers to kill everything she sees as an enemy or food before thinking of anything else.

I do agree that Priscilla is toying with Clare. We've already seen it done many times before. Priscilla likes to play around with her prey before killing it. We've seen it done with Alicia and Beth. As you said, we've seen it done with Riful and Dauf, and now Clare. But I have my doubts that she was being trained as an eye. Priscilla's specialty was to completely hide her Youki and fight without using any demon energy in the heat of battle. That doesn't neccessarily mean Priscilla was skilled in sensing Youki. We never really saw that when she was a Claymore and after her awakening. At least, it never amounted to anything beyond what any other high level warrior could do.

[[thousandmaster]]

Is Priscilla using a minimal amount of her power when she was fighting Claire? If she transformed into her awakened horned form, will her power go up many levels?

It was impressive seeing her take out Riful, Alicia, Beth and the hellcats in just her human form.

[revan5]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Yes you asked why not use them. I just gave a reason why they didn't.

I said why not use female hybrid warriors. In no part did I mention that these warriors were going to be half-awakened. If you think about it, it would make a great deal of sense. In many ways the regular girls would provide a larger, more permanent and steady backup to the regular armies. When it comes to male Awakened Beings being currently used, the casualty rate is an astounding 100% (lost to use or dead). I would think even if the warriors take horrific casualties against the Dragonkin, their numbers could eventually be built up. Even with an 80% casualty rate you'd eventually be getting a few elite veterans.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Yes you did and that's obvious. Still I wasn't saying anything that would suggest otherwise. What I was saying (which I believe was pretty clear) is that as far as we know both partly awakened Claymore and regular Claymores can fully awaken and become ABs. The only diffrence is that a partly awakened Claymore would need to fuse more Yoki in order to awaken.

Correction here, we only know that they can use their full Yoki. That however is not the same as "awakening", which entails enormous bodily changes and far greater offensive combat abilities. I think, as do many others, that 100 shows that partly awakened beings can use immense amounts of Yoki, but not the fully awakened abilities that usually come along with these features. Think of it like a limiter. Example: Even if Helen were to have as much Yoki as Isley, her combat abilities would be less due to being unable to push her body into awakening.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Well yes probably that woudl make a difference. The fact they didn't make more and the fact that there are only 47 Claymores at any given moment would meant that there probably is a reason for that. Maybe Yoma's are made with Dragonkin's flesh in the first place and that limits how many the MiBs can produce in the first place. There are too many unknowns. Either way the fact they didn't would probably mean they can't and furthermore Prissy and Teresa were exceptions and the Org didn't even know how powerfull Teresa actually was. They probably didn't even know how powerful Prissy was until she killed Alicia and Beth. Nothing would usggest that a No1 Claymore is stronger than what the Dragonkin could trow at them. And either way most No1 ended up awakening thus they weren't under the control of the MiBs and mind you only one of them actually awakened due to a failed experiment. The rest did it on thier own which would suggest that No1s are hard to keep under control thus you can't make a lot of them and expect to be able to control them as you will.

I suspect the reason why we don't see more claymores is the very fact that their personalities render them harder to control. What would make it easier to manage them is if you placed a female warrior in a command role. But that seems to go against everything the Organization stands for. They want obedience, not their creations rising the ranks. So in order to limit their risk, they limit the number of warriors they have. After all, during Claire's training they didn't seem to care how many warriors died. It suggests the Organization is almost as afraid of their warriors as their warriors are of them.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

A massed group of warriors that is under your control, act as a unit and have the power to rival the enemy.
For all we know they have similar power to a strong AB since the organizatione mentioned using AB's to wipe everything even their own troops as it turned out. But we've seen that regular Claymores need to hunt in gorups to kill one AB. So imagine what a whole unit of expirienced Dragonkin's (since they fight a lot and as you suggested they seem like a tribe thus they probably have traditions in fighting and such) would do to Claymores even if they are in large numbers.

Hey, nobody ever said it'd be pretty. I'm just saying even if the results weren't "pretty", I'd suspect huge numbers of warriors would level the fight through sheer numbers. Clearly if Awakened Beings are a threat to Dragonkin, and claymores in sufficient numbers can kill Awakened Beings, then if you use massive numbers of Claymores you're likely to see some results.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

True Claymore would have to be resolved in some way but that doesn't mean Clare and the rest would have to become super powerful heroes that can kill everything they see (except Prissy for now) since that would result either in our heroes being godlike or enemies getting stronger which would mean more power ups for our girls and overall this will result in something that moves furhter and furhter away from what the manga has been up until now.
As DragoZERO put it " One of the charms in this manga is that the heroes are not super powered".

Here, let me put it the way in a simple way. Think of it like this:

Level 1 (weaker on average) fighters: regular Claymores
Level 2 (average) fighters: Half-Awakened Claymores
Level 3 (above average) fighters: Awakened Beings

What Yagi's doing is not creating new "Wonder Women", but rather a half-way house of heroes. They clearly are at some disadvantage against equally strong Awakened Beings (in terms of Yoki) but more dangerous than regular warriors. So rather than becoming ridiculously overpowered, the half-awakened warriors are stuck somewhere in between the two levels. The best evidence is their fear of the Abyssal Ones.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Why when they are fully awakened they won't be able to use awakened abilities? Full A(awakened) from would mean that they awaken at least that's what I think is natural. I'm saying that going between the two forms like Riful for example but without the whole "losing one's humanity once they past their limit" would be a total cop-out no matter how you look at it. As I said you'll get all the benefits like "like limb shape modification, awakened projectiles or massively more robust bodies" and etc but there are no cons. At least that's the way I see things. From what you said I beieve you didn't quite understand me.

But they can't go between the "two forms like Riful"! They're stuck at the very best pushing their human forms to heal quickly, stretch or twist beyond human limits, and be stronger than normal. Half-awakeneds it appears might very well not be able to get the full benefits you're speaking of. Claire did a controlled awakening of her limbs, and Rigardo commented that this "unnatural awakening" by Claire would mean she'd have an "equally high price" to pay for it.

The fact that her limbs reverted suggests a "once and done" thing. In other words, they either push themselves to completely awaken once or the controlled awakening might actually forever stop them from abandoning their humanity. It would also mean they've forever lost access to their body's full Awakened abilities.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Oh and another thing - from what we've seen up till now there's no way to acces 100% of your yoki without awakening since using yoki even at 30% changes parts of your body. And we have no idea how much yoki Prissy is using and I can't see how she's even close to 80%. It would indeed be interesting as idea but I don't see how that could happen.

No way huh? I suppose then that the Ghosts exceeding the 80% limit means that somehow that can't have happened? After Deneve was horribly wounded in the slashers arc, she said this (Chapter 30 page 20): "Let's see if I can release my Yoma power all at once. If we're in a half-awakened state, then I should be able to heal this wound instantly. Then, without fully awakening, I should be able to revert back to normal."

It sounds like to me this has possibly already happened, and Deneve is not an Awakened Being...yet.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by [thousandmaster]

Is Priscilla using a minimal amount of her power when she was fighting Claire? If she transformed into her awakened horned form, will her power go up many levels?

It was impressive seeing her take out Riful, Alicia, Beth and the hellcats in just her human form.

You betcha; this is the same with all Awakened; their human form really is just for stealth purposes or to hide themselves and regenerate. Their true form, and the bulk of their power, is in their Awakened state.

Which means their must be a specific reason she hasn't transformed yet.

[Joe_fh]

I typed a really long reply and my browser crashed....great,just great...
I fogot some of the things I wanted to say but anyways...

Originally Posted by revan5

I said why not use female hybrid warriors. In no part did I mention that these warriors were going to be half-awakened. If you think about it, it would make a great deal of sense. In many ways the regular girls would provide a larger, more permanent and steady backup to the regular armies. When it comes to male Awakened Beings being currently used, the casualty rate is an astounding 100% (lost to use or dead). I would think even if the warriors take horrific casualties against the Dragonkin, their numbers could eventually be built up. Even with an 80% casualty rate you'd eventually be getting a few elite veterans.

You're right my mistake. You didn't mention any half awakened Claymores. From what we know about Claymores fighting in that war I doubt "backup" is the right word here. We know Claymores tend to awaken after a given period of time. We also know that ABs aren't under the control of the organization. We also know that depending on the personality and thier will to live/fight etc they can awaken really fast. So from all those things you'll be getting a lot of Awakened beings. They in turn would inflict a lot of damage to your troops thus the only way to actually use them is at was mentioned in the manga drop them in the midle of the enemy's forces and let them go berserk until they die. With a large force they might end up killing each other instead of fighting the enemy. Also you'll need the resource to sustain a large enough force of Claymores all the time and kill of your veterans before they turn on you or become too powerfull for the MiB to control. Basically the same thing happens on the island on a much smaller scale.

Originally Posted by revan5

Correction here, we only know that they can use their full Yoki. That however is not the same as "awakening", which entails enormous bodily changes and far greater offensive combat abilities. I think, as do many others, that 100 shows that partly awakened beings can use immense amounts of Yoki, but not the fully awakened abilities that usually come along with these features. Think of it like a limiter. Example: Even if Helen were to have as much Yoki as Isley, her combat abilities would be less due to being unable to push her body into awakening.

I can't remeber what I wrote here >.>
Anyways this is where the confusion comes from.
Claymores in general have a limit. If they go beyond it, they awaken. Tha seems to be the case for the most part. When they reach that limit (I think it was around 80% but I might be wrong cause I can't remember) they lose control of their yoki and give in to the urge to awaken and release all their power. Partial awakening starts in the same way but when the limit is reached, they don't give in to that urge but are able to come back. This in a sense raises the limit they need to pass to fully awaken which in turn gives them acces to more yoki other warriors wouldn't be able to utilise unless they go past their limits as well (and awaken in general). That's why they can use so much yoki nd still not go past their limit. All the things said however suggest they still do have a limit.
There are theories that partial awakening increase to "yoki cap" Claymores have and when they finally awaken completely they are more powerfull that if they awakened right off the bat.
We know that a partly awakened claymore can fully awaken if their go past their limit after the events in Pieta and we have no reason to believe they can't since there's no evdence so far. The only thing that might sugest this is ch100 but Clare not awakening might be caused by many different things right now and since we have no idea what happened and who or what stopped her from awakening it isn't a good example.

Basically you're saying that the awakened bodies play a huge role in the power level of a warrior and I completely agree as do everyone else I think.

Originally Posted by revan5

I suspect the reason why we don't see more claymores is the very fact that their personalities render them harder to control. What would make it easier to manage them is if you placed a female warrior in a command role. But that seems to go against everything the Organization stands for. They want obedience, not their creations rising the ranks. So in order to limit their risk, they limit the number of warriors they have. After all, during Claire's training they didn't seem to care how many warriors died. It suggests the Organization is almost as afraid of their warriors as their warriors are of them.

I had the same general idea before Alicia and Beth showed up. After that it was clear that the MiBs can brainwash a person into oblivion.
Placing a strong warrior in command would mean that the moment that person start doubting your actions everyone under his coomand would do so as well. Basically a good leader is a double edged sword (a Claymore ) and in the Organization's case it would probably do more harm than good judjing by their expirience in the past.
Also in the chapter you mentioned it seemed that the MiBs are killing off the weakest Claymores that wouldn't serve any purpose. maybe they can recycle part of the yoma flesh and make new Claymores. Who knows?

Originally Posted by revan5

Hey, nobody ever said it'd be pretty. I'm just saying even if the results weren't "pretty", I'd suspect huge numbers of warriors would level the fight through sheer numbers. Clearly if Awakened Beings are a threat to Dragonkin, and claymores in sufficient numbers can kill Awakened Beings, then if you use massive numbers of Claymores you're likely to see some results.

That's true provide you have the resources to sustain huge numbers of Claymores all the time. Also you will still have the problem of the injured Claymores awakening in order to save themsleves and the ones that just go past their limits and all of them will kill a large part of your own forces. Thus the idea of them actually supporting the regular army seems unlikely.
At present I think that the organization might be doing something simila. It's clear that they found a way to buy time otherwise they would have lost if the Dragonkin were as powerful as they appear to be. It's also clear that the Organization only found a way to buy time or they would have already won. For all we know they're sending ABs here and there but they also might be sending Claymores to see how things go. We simply have no idea what's going on over there to say for certain how the Organiztion's side hasn't already lost and what they're doing to prevent that.

Originally Posted by revan5

Here, let me put it the way in a simple way. Think of it like this:

Level 1 (weaker on average) fighters: regular Claymores
Level 2 (average) fighters: Half-Awakened Claymores
Level 3 (above average) fighters: Awakened Beings

What Yagi's doing is not creating new "Wonder Women", but rather a half-way house of heroes. They clearly are at some disadvantage against equally strong Awakened Beings (in terms of Yoki) but more dangerous than regular warriors. So rather than becoming ridiculously overpowered, the half-awakened warriors are stuck somewhere in between the two levels. The best evidence is their fear of the Abyssal Ones.

Again I completely agree with you here. The point is that if they're able to go go back and forth between their human form and a full Awakened form (for now they can't)without any problem and avoiding the main points the manga made about awakening, the dangers and permanent chages one faces after it, I won't like it at all. If it's due to something like the Soul link than ok since the Soul link is very fragile and dangerous as it is.

Originally Posted by revan5

But they can't go between the "two forms like Riful"! They're stuck at the very best pushing their human forms to heal quickly, stretch or twist beyond human limits, and be stronger than normal. Half-awakeneds it appears might very well not be able to get the full benefits you're speaking of. Claire did a controlled awakening of her limbs, and Rigardo commented that this "unnatural awakening" by Claire would mean she'd have an "equally high price" to pay for it.

I'm really glad they can't. All I'm saying (again) is that they to have a limit and if they go past it they'll awaken like very other Claymore. Yes Clare awakened only her limbs but that was enough to make her lose control and go past her limit. If Jean wasn't there to pull her back Clare would have awakened for sure.
It was unnatural because she didn't awaken completely and lose her human self thus end up killing everyone rather them protecting them. Actually her partial awakening in Pieta is a really long topic and I better not get into that since it's beside the point.

All in all my point was that if they "had two forms like Riful" and they could go back and forth between them whenever they pleased without the "equally high price" or "losing their humanity" or something similar to the fragile Soul link it would be a cop out, at least that's the way I see things.

Fact is we just seem to be on different pages since you're talking about what they are now and I'm talking about what might happen and how I'll feel about it if it does. I was just mentioning it in light of some ideas in this thread.

Originally Posted by revan5

The fact that her limbs reverted suggests a "once and done" thing. In other words, they either push themselves to completely awaken once or the controlled awakening might actually forever stop them from abandoning their humanity. It would also mean they've forever lost access to their body's full Awakened abilities.

Again what happened in Pieta would suggest otherwise. Clare wasn't in control, she herself felt that she couldn't stop herslef anymore and was about to awaken. The reason her limbs reverted and she went back to beaing human (Claymore) was Jean. I doubt they can forever lose access to their body's full Awakened ablilites to to the fact that the more power they use the more their body changes. You can't use 90%+ and not awaken some part of your body because the strain would be too much and you will basically rip yorself apart. Or at least that is when you're using parts of your body fo offense. At least that's my opinion.

Originally Posted by revan5

No way huh? I suppose then that the Ghosts exceeding the 80% limit means that somehow that can't have happened? After Deneve was horribly wounded in the slashers arc, she said this (Chapter 30 page 20): "Let's see if I can release my Yoma power all at once. If we're in a half-awakened state, then I should be able to heal this wound instantly. Then, without fully awakening, I should be able to revert back to normal."

It sounds like to me this has possibly already happened, and Deneve is not an Awakened Being...yet.

I see what happened here...i misunderstood you and you in turn misunderstood me. See I was talking about Prissy in ch100 and was saying that she isn't even close to using 80% of her power...otherwise everyone would be dead right now.
80%+ means going past your limit and awakening in general. I already said what I think happened with the partila awakenings and how now they can use more than 80% safely. I'm not saying the partial awakenings didn't happen (that would be sort of stupid) or that a Claymore can't reach 80% or even 90% and come back. I'm saying that I don't see them releasing 100% yoki and not awakening.

And about the quote you posted - I really have no idea how to explain that if you interpret "my Yoma power all at once" as 100% of the power. I remember that she partly awakened that time and returned before she fully awakened. Miria said that regeneration is posssible when one is near their limits. So Deneve would need to use 80%-90% to do that and come back before hse reaches 100%. At least that's the way I see it. It's not logical to think that she could reach 100% and come back. If that was posible than why did they sitll think (even in ch 100) that they could awaken? If they could use 100% yoki in such a poor condition and still come back how would they awaken?
They talk about realeasing all their yoki at times but I don't think they mrean releasing 100% of their yoki. Where would be the point one awakens and what will be the limit they're talking about if they can realease all their yoki? If 100% yoki isn't the limit than what is? And how can there be more when it's all they have? This certainly is a complicated matter and could be discussed a lot.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Joe

I typed a really long reply and my browser crashed....great,just great...
I fogot some of the things I wanted to say but anyways...

Dear lord, you have no idea how that pisses me off when it happens; especially when you type something really really long, then you find out you automatically logged off, and everything you wrote gets erased.

I still remember getting into a long debate with Gangsta and that happened, try to copy and past your big stuff just in case

[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Dear lord, you have no idea how that pisses me off when it happens; especially when you type something really really long, then you find out you automatically logged off, and everything you wrote gets erased.

I still remember getting into a long debate with Gangsta and that happened, try to copy and past your big stuff just in case

Indeed it's really annoying especially when you spent a lot of time writing it.
I'll do that form now on^^ copy/paste all the way
I mean the thing I just posted is short compared to the original

[Traun]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Indeed it's really annoying especially when you spent a lot of time writing it.
I'll do that form now on^^ copy/paste all the way
I mean the thing I just posted is short compared to the original

I typed a really long reply and my browser crashed....great,just great...
I fogot some of the things I wanted to say but anyways...

Stop using Internet Explorer. Google Chrome and Firefox will prevent most of this (hell, GC (as memory hungry as it is) only crashes when I overload the program or the PC).

[gxy1069]

haiz...all this talk about clare having 100% access to her powers and retaining her human form has got all confused...well, i get the idea, but it still wouldn't mean that good chance of beating priscilla at all. at most she could hold her off for a chapter even if that happened, so this whole future thing is a complete unknown. weel, whatever it is, i hope pris and clare can get over the revenge thingy...dun mistake for one who doesn't like small details and lengthy theories...i just like the big picture btr.