2012-10-28, 15:58 | Link #101 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
|
Uhhh... I have no idea whether this actually happens or not. But I haven't seen the system do anything of the sort. All I've seen it do is grade people. The same way schools and universities do right now. And it gives us the Crime Coefficients. I mean you don't want people with a high chance of becoming criminal near children. Or money. Or confidential information. Or powertools. Or metal. I mean, it makes perfect sense right?
|
2012-10-28, 16:35 | Link #102 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Besides, considering who they hire to hold their guns, "I can shoot" will automatically translate to "I'm bloody well going to shoot". |
|
2012-10-28, 17:50 | Link #103 | |||
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
Fact: Sibyl strictly limits people's career options (Akane's two female friends made this clear in Episode 2) Fact: Sibyl recommends workplaces to individuals (the Factory boss of Episode 3 made this clear) So Sibyl plays a huge role in who gets hired and where. And it's role isn't in just giving information to people. It clearly goes beyond that. Quote:
Quote:
Hell, your speed limit example fits perfectly here. Let's say you're driving 20 over the speed limit because you just got a call that your wife is giving birth. A human cop may say "Ok, we'll give you an exception here. Keep going, no ticket today, and congratulations!". A machine is more likely to not make a reasonable exception here.
__________________
|
|||
2012-10-28, 19:03 | Link #104 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
I don't know about your country, but there are reason in mine (at least till two years ago) you want to get in to University... You get an A, then you will get whatever job you wish, whatever you wish... There are limitation still, like you can't be a doctor if you are an IT bachelor, but you got my point... On the other hand, you get a bad mark, you will only get blue collar work... Period. Unless you make your own job of course... Quote:
Base on your statement, the speedometer recognize that the man speed over the limit, but the police choose not to take action... Now in to dominator, it recognize that the woman's CC in episode 1 is over the limit, but Akane choose not to take the shot... As far as I see, nothing is vastly different here, just a much more polished tool to help human daily life... I mean, a cowboy will also afraid of speedometer as they don't understand it and though it will limit their freedom... |
||
2012-10-28, 19:38 | Link #105 | ||
Senior Member
Author
|
Quote:
Akane was able to go to everything from the Ministry of the Economy to the Ministry of Technology to the Public Safety Bureau (as a Police Inspector, essentially). And there may well have been more besides. There's a considerable range amongst these three disciplines (Economists, Engineers, and Police Chiefs are three pretty different professions, just like Doctors and IT specialists are two pretty different professions). Anyway, in my country, job interviews still matter, to the best of my knowledge. A good, applicable resume gets you the interview, but how you handle the interview is important. Quote:
But speedometers don't give out spoken recommendations like "Give that driver a speeding ticket." or "Give that driver a breathalyzer test." or "That driver is breaking the speed limit by over 40%. Arrest the driver and put him in jail for the night." That's a key difference between the speedometer and the Dominator that you're glossing over here... And you know what? This hits home personally for me. A couple weeks ago I was driving to work in a nasty rainstorm. Partly due to that (and construction workers not being active in the bad weather) I missed the fact that I was driving through a Construction Zone. I ended up breaking the speed limit for a construction area, but still going below what the speed limit would normally be. I received a ticket for that, but the police officer lowered it after I explained my case to him. Would that had happened if a Sibyl system had told him "Give that driver the standard penalty for driving over the speed limit in a construction zone"? Personally, I doubt it. This is part of the reason why I want police officers to act on their own personal judgement, taking each case in full context, and not just going along with what some uncaring machine tells them to do.
__________________
|
||
2012-10-28, 20:17 | Link #106 | |
Waiting for more taiyuki!
Join Date: Jan 2004
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-10-28, 20:44 | Link #107 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
Quote:
It doesn't give you lower penalty, it simply tell you are 'wrong' because you pass the 'limit'... Because it doesn't talk or change mode, doesn't mean it less merciless than dominator... As I said, the one who decide your penalty isn't the speedometer or the dominator... Both only tell 'you are wrong', the one who decide the penalty is the police or the enforcer... The show has shown us that it is indeed the case. The strict police is Ginzo (glasses dude), the reasoning police is Akane, etc. Dominator is simply tool and how people see the tool are differ to one another (based on episode 3): Ginzo believe it is the only and must evidence for crime, Masaoka doesn't thinks so, while Koagami simply think it as gun... The problem is, based on episode 1, the enforcer seems doesn't have way to control the gun mode, but are you sure you won't pointing a gun to a terrorist that try to blow himself and you up? (the woman hold a lighter on spilled oil, which might trigger explosion) Yes, you can talk to them, to reason with them, and that is what Akane did... |
||
2012-10-28, 22:46 | Link #108 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
Quote:
|
|
2012-10-28, 23:06 | Link #109 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
Dangerous is 'wrong' for safety enforcer for dangerous mean the condition is beyond acceptable limit, thus the red bar... You aren't suppose to be in that situation... |
|
2012-10-28, 23:09 | Link #110 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
Quote:
The question with interviews is why we bother Quote:
Between unreliable human judgment and a machine-calculated probability backed with the best data science has to offer, I don't think it's hard to see why a future society would choose the latter over the former. |
||
2012-10-28, 23:42 | Link #111 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
Quote:
The Dominator decides for itself. sure the officer still has to pull the trigger, but i haven't seen any officer telling the Dominator what MODE to employ. It does that automatically BASED on the SYBIL reading of the target (or the threat level in case of inanimates). that is in fact more than a recommendation, that is already judgement. I would have agreed to some of your statement but Speedometers. or regular gauges for that matter are just so different from the Sybil + Dominator system that its just so far fetch to compare the two. again as above , red in speedometers means POSSIBLE danger. Being beyond acceptable limit, aren't suppose to be in that situation, are all subjective decisions by law enforcers and is not the speedometers call and definitely not the reason for the red line. those are dependent on current location and conditions ,see above. In fact police officers rarely use car speedometers in apprehending traffic violations, they have their own speed radar, and installed cameras. |
|
2012-10-29, 00:49 | Link #112 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
1) Triple_R (whom I reply to) and Anh_Minh (whom Triple_R reply to) use it 2) As analogy how Dominator is merely a tool, how Sybil System is merely a tool and doesn't have self-recognition as people accuse (for there are no such evident so far) Yes it is grossly simplification to compare the two, but it is effective to show how unfair it is for people treat Sybil as failure while many things around us work similarly to Sybil system... About the mode, I've post it before: Quote:
Quote:
Yes the police use their own speed radar, but it doesn't change the fact that they use such tool to determine you are 'wrong' or not... There are reason why such tool beeping when you pass certain limit, because the tool need to tell the user that you have done 'wrong', you have pass the safe limit... It does tell you are 'wrong' but through color and noise instead of "you are wrong" voice that dominator has... And if you think it is a simple measurement tool, then it would be design like stopwatch with nothing but button to stop measurement or ruler which is a pure measurement... Also, dominator doesn't judge you, it change mode base on how dangerous you POSSIBLY are for the user... In episode 1, once the woman doesn't have the lighter, the dominator see the situation as no longer dangerous, thus revert back to paralyzer mode... Though probably the term 'judgement' for us is different... You seem to think it as social effect a certain act has while I think it as final act, the conclusion that exist at the end of acts chain... If such is the case then we won't have any agreement on this issue... |
|||
2012-10-29, 01:42 | Link #113 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
Quote:
Quote:
Well i never said SYBIL is a failure, in fact i think it's one hell of a machine!, and quite an advancement, but i disagree with it's use and implementation. And no i disagree that there are systems around us like SYBIL, education some say, NATs and other placement exams some others. but again degree of sophistication and encompassing implementation. and definitely not like speedometers and speed radars. It may seem similar but it's not, there are underlying issues that makes it different altogether. like checks and balances. Quote:
|
|||
2012-10-29, 02:15 | Link #114 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
Now let's change from speedometer to medical analysis... If the blood check determine a baby has AIDS, what people think? Whether the baby treated as human or not isn't come from diagnosis, but from the people that use the diagnosis as recommendation... What we don't know in SYBIL is, whether SYBIL commands people (judging the target) or Dominator simply gives fact and provide suitable tool (recommend the user)... We don't have proof about any of those two but people already judge that SYBIL is judging which so far isn't true because base on how Dominator presented, they merely recommend... Quote:
Whether they claim far too many aspect of life or not, it is different altogether and how it is implemented is what we should ask for... The fact is, whatever the tool you have, they do gives you recommendation for one simple fact: they give you information. Though... Quote:
If we think SYBIL as tool than a 'tool's recommendation' is - in my opinion - information that the tool provide to the user while 'tool's judgement' is where tool act based on its own information without human interference (i.e anti-virus delete my game's crack because it treats the crack as virus without ask my permission)... What is judgement? Base on your post, I assume what you mean judgement is same with what I call as recommendation... For me, Judgement is the finishing act, that the gun shot the victims without anyone trigger it... As long as the gun needs human to trigger it, then I still think it as only recommendation... |
|||
2012-10-29, 02:19 | Link #115 |
Me at work
|
In france you'll automatically be fined if an automatic radar says you're speeding,radar takes a picture,special software recognizes the number plate (then humans check to make sure it's right) and a fine is automatically sent by mail to the person that owns the car with that number plate.You can contest but it's very much a "guilty until proven innocent" system.
__________________
|
2012-10-29, 02:47 | Link #117 |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
|
I don't think there's a manual override. Go back to the opening scene of Ep1, when Shinya was channelling Spike Spiegel in a one-man assault on an office tower. Spike, er, I mean Shinya, was confronted by what seemed to be a bioroid, and when he attempted shoot it with his Dominator, he cursed under his breath because the gun wouldn't work. He had to fight the bioroid hand-to-hand, possibly with the aim of raising the danger rating high enough for him to unlock the Dominator's lethal mode. It took quite a heavy beating before Shinya could fire the weapon.
|
2012-10-29, 06:13 | Link #118 | |||||||||||
SIBYL salesman
Join Date: Feb 2011
|
Damn it, I've only now realised I've been spelling it Sybil, but it's spelt Sibyl (or SIBYL to be extra cool). Pack it up guys, all arguments for Sibyl are now invalid .
(And long post is loooooooong). Quote:
I know it's a cold attitude, but again, that's not what I want to live in, but this is how I see hard choices would be made. Quote:
It doesn't seem like Sibyl knows things like the factory environment (in terms of actual personalities within), or the history surrounding it. If it turns out Sibyl is somehow self-aware, able to account for asshole/non-asshole personality traits, or able to determine potential scapegoats, then a lot of my arguments will probably become invalid, I fear . Quote:
Still, a single machine making life-impacting recommendations versus a bit of biased individuals making life-impacting recommendations, obviously the latter increases your chances of survival in the real world, but that's exploiting loop-holes in the human network system. Quote:
Instead of hiding away unstability, the system is promotes maintaining healthy mental state for everyone. The only arguments here are the latent criminals issue, that people should be given the right to remain unstable (and/or get worst) or the possibility of mind controlling agents. Quote:
The point was that weapons were designed to be weapons, so it's purpose as a 'good' thing is twisting it's original intent. Sibyl...well, at this point in time, I believe was created to help aid people, not created as a weapon. The closet analogy I can come up with is the internet itself. The original intent twisted by the people making issues like cyber-bullying, digital piracy ("You wouldn't download a car!"...er, what?), etc. Has the internet been censored, yet? Well, it is only now starting to. Quote:
Anyway, I'm pretty sure employing latent criminals undermines the practicing good personal judgement. But again, that's not Sibyl recommending 'please fight fire with fire', that's people going 'hey, let's risk the lives of "dogs" instead'. Quote:
Akane: "I-I did receive training on it, more or less..." Supercomputer did not allocate the job to Akane on the spot. She chose her profession and got training prior to her first official shift. I'm speculating the training was done with people, so they could still reject her if she wasn't meeting their expectations (and if I'm wrong, you'll get a cookie). But of course, Sibyl's judgement hasn't been proven wrong just yet: Friend A: "The best I could do was C-rank scores across the board." Friend B: "What's the problem? You're good at blue-collar work." Quote:
As for Psycho-Pass's world, they probably did it because they saw an opportunity to make the world a better place. Technically, we don't know if the world really is worst or not. We're watching it from the police's side so we're purposely shoved into the dark side of society, but: Ep 2: Was meant to be a quiet night. Ep 3: "Back in the days when we didn't have cymatic scans, these sorts of incidents weren't that uncommon". So, it sounds like crime has decreased. Quote:
An argument could be made that the bigger picture is that the officer could have been allocated to solving a more serious crime elsewhere. Quote:
The ones who completely have complete faith in the system takes its follows its exact words as it speaks. But again, that's the individual's, or the entire social culture, idea to take it as "the word of god" and follow it immediately. Quote:
As for the manual override, what was the answer to why the hacker didn't get "enforced" lethally despite a higher reading than ep 1's guy? It was higher, right? Maybe there is a manual override, and Shinya's listening to Akane's words in ep 1/2 (justice over duty)? Or was it because the hacker actually had no killing intent himself (ie. he needed the robots to kill on his behalf), so Sibyl saw no lethal threat from him? |
|||||||||||
2012-10-29, 06:33 | Link #119 | |
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-10-29, 07:15 | Link #120 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
|
Quote:
Thus it merely a tool... I just disagree with the statement that it is all Sibyl fault... Quote:
Talk about threat... I've watched episode 1 again and find that CC is different than threat measurement... Which can explain or clouded our understanding about dominator mode change... |
||
|
|