Gundam Build Fighters Try - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by ranoa

Now Jesus Kira Yamato have a rival in term plot armor abuse!!
Wow! Well done Sunrise!

Eh, not really

Originally Posted by noobita

Best? The whole battle just revolving around Lucas hit and run until he got stomped. He cannot even kill one or two before he got defeated. His hype is simply a BS. Don't know why the animator want to made him "scared" Sekai for no reason.

Originally Posted by Tactics

That's why GN Drive is one of the popular energy source(s) in Gundam.
With Allan as a coach and Shia as a mechanic, it's safe to say all Celestial Sphere's GN Drive is fully activated.

In this game the Gunpla run off Plavsky Particles, so output and consumption are determined by Gunpla quality/build, rather than the in-universe power source (though the machine replicates the looks for visual purposes). With builders like Allan and Shia, particle management, storage, and usage are bound to be top class

Originally Posted by BoyTitan

Decent battle but I call bullshit on two things.

1 The repairing with the nano bots was pure dues ex machina. 2 Why the fuck didn't full cloth use his SP ability. Every gunpla has a sp ability activated by selecting SP in the weapons selection. Wielfred use his and fullcloth did not respond with one. 3 even more deus ex machina with this particle loss bullshit. Hey maybe there will be a season 3 because it was a shit ton of plot armor that killed him.

Karels exist you know, though in the 00 universe they had Haro's docked to them

SP stands for special, and can be a feature or an attack. And not all units have it

The particle loss was BS though, Lucas was literally plagued by it for no reason other than plot

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

He may have had awful luck in the seventh world tournament and was Fellini's whipping boy, but just remember that the world tournament was a tournament for champions, and that Rainer Cziommer was still Germany's champion Gunpla Fighter.

He's a joke, seriously, he got whipped by kids during that little fair thing before the final round

Im not surprised if he switched his job/profession to commentating, he's much better suited for it

[Yan3242]

Hmmm If you are a somewhat famous player and being asked to comentating a junior championship, isnt that a good thing? A sign of popularity rise?

Many people who play cards like vanguard or magic (for example) usually being asked to become a judge if they are really good player or a comentator in tournament to spice up the atmosphere.

Although i be honest, i dont remember him at all if kurahane didnt mention it, i google him and my first reaction is "oh its that guy"

As for portemt itself, nobody expect a healbot.

[Galaxian]

G-Portent's bots are not that different from the miniature Zeon soldiers that the Renato brothers use with their GM Sniper.

[Beefsquatch]

Episode's action was pretty good. However the Lucas hype didn't seem to amount much. Even tho he was bad ass in Gunpla battle, its not much when your a single guy in a team based battle. He would have been better off if they did a 1v1 from the start since a 3v1 was definitely not going to work out.

[Guardian Enzo]

Great to hear Romi Paku working consistently again - hopefully her health problems are behind her for a while.

[Wild Goose]

Rather than get into a long-winded discussion, I'm simply going to quote two friends of mine from Spacebattles.

But basically tl;dr the issue with particles is that Lucas is using compressed particles at a rate higher than his gunpla can generate. Note that gunpla can run out of gas - recall GBF episode 14, when Sei and Reiji run out of juice and slide into second place behind the Super Renato Bros.

Originally Posted by Winchester

Kind of getting sick of all the negativity around here, especially by *people who've already stated they're no longer watching it*. Please go somewhere else?

I thought the whole buddy refueling system made sense myself.

All mobile suits start out with a particle load, and are charged by ambient particles, which are concentrated to allow for weapons fire and other particle effects. Overusing the plavsky hax leaves the suit drained.

The Star Build Strike had a shield that could absorb concentrated particles from other people's weapons fire directly, which is what made it so dangerous - it'd literally use the enemy's efforts against him. Do note that it was demonstrated in the first season that the Star Build Strike could run out of particles - it happened in the race episode, where they ran out of gas just before finish line and ended up in second place after having had to catch up from last place.

Lucas' machine doesn't absorb compressed particles from weapons fire, he drains the tanks of his allies of pre-compressed particles to supplement his own. This means he can afford to expend the three times as many particles needed to counter all three of his enemies. Meanwhile his allies are hiding and compressing new particles using the normal method.

As to why Sekai's Try Burning can pull off the crap it does, remember that the whole system is powered by an Arista, which reacts to strong will. And Sekai has more and purer will (due to being somewhat one-tracked...) of that than most others. Plus of course the chance that Try Burning might have a built-in Arista, possibly the one Reiji gave Sei near the start of season one...

Originally Posted by Kerrus

They aren't, outside of game mechanics, a finite resource. What they've done is in order to encourage better building and tactics and creativity is made it so that machines actually have reactor output in a given amount of particles per second. I'm assuming that the system reads the construction of the Gunpla and uses that to determine what its particle generation rate is, and that stuff like supermodes that expend large amounts of particles, or increase particle generation rate have comparative downsides. Trans-AM is the most obvious one we've seen before, so it's a proven thing.

I'd guess that if you compare to say, the season 1 finale where Gundam Mao X Crossbone was firing off satellite blasts every three seconds- this change is designed to prevent that sort of thing in a competitive arena. You can absolutely design a Gunpla that is so well built that it can fire multiple superweapon shots, but you aren't going to be able to beamspam without a lot of preparation work, because the system now limits you.

This is also one of the reasons that the Build Strike Gundam's various tricks were so ridiculously powerful- because they were already operating on an 'unlimited energy' field, and it was absorbing that much more to magnify its power.

While the Build Burning has a similar system, it mostly relies on its own stored particle output, and honestly I suspect that Sei's set it up so it actually retains an internal store of Plavsky even when not animated by the system- basically embodying the 'fighting makes me stronger' thing- any unused particles are added to the core, as we saw the previous episode.

From a mechanical standpoint, the idea of reactor output limiting your particle supply is genius, and was likely implemented to also prevent munchkin style tactics from taking over the game, where someone slaps all the superweapons together and uses their unlimited particle supply to just nuke the enemies before they can do anything.

We've seen lots of machines with tremendously powerful all range attacks, but they're all a lot more focused (Sekai's J Phoenix nothwithstanding) than the season 1 attacks- Willfried's is a good example, creating a very wide/thin crevasse rather than just obliterating the entire island. Ultimately it seems like the new system is encouraging efficiency in design while also using the reactor output limit to encourage creativity.

Like oh, I don't know, Star Winning Gundam's real mode? Where it has specifically designed reactor bits in the arms and the legs for FIVE TIMES THE OUTPUT?

Under the old system that wouldn't do anything because reactor output wasn't a stat.

EDIT: This also conveniently explains why Minato's Tryon 3 is so powerful- it's got three machines each with their own reactor that combine into one mostly normal sized machine. Everyone who initially saw it laughed because it wasn't any larger, so they figured it wouldn't have any more durability or all the extra space for doodads and gimmicks that a larger unit might have- and to an extent they're correct. HOWEVER, by being 'normal sized' it doesn't have to spend its particles to move all that mass and can stay at absolute top tier performance for far longer, and spend all its excess particles on stuff like beam shields and summoning the KING BLADE and whathaveyou.

As a note, [USER=38]@winchester[/USER] had forgotten that the Arista Reiji gave Sei was given to Aila, who used it to follow Reiji to Arian.

Also I liked the callbacks to GBF, with the Nemesis support truckvan and the namedropping of Aila.

It was a good ep. Pretty good.

One more thing - the two guys Lucas called in? Look at their builds. Pretty simple, nothing fancy, no plavsky hax. He deliberately chose the guys who didn't have fancy stuff so that they'd have better particle compression.

[Blazer-X]

Just watched the episode, so I figured I'd give my two cents (that no one will care about because its a wall of text).

First off, I have very mixed feelings about the fight. On the one hand, it was tactically beautiful. We finally got to see Gunpla Academy fight as a team instead of solo slaughtering their enemies. It really shows how they are not just 3 strong individuals, but 3 players that know how to properly support each other, which had been my biggest fear since day one. On Lucas's side, we got someone who is both a very strong player and a very good tactician. It's easy to see exactly why he's the European champ, especially if they play mostly 1v1.

I don't think they did a bad job showing him off either. He "took out" Shia using a brilliant strategy with a FAR INFERIOR part of his machine. Even when going up against both Adou and Wilfrid at the same time, he managed to neuter The End and hold off Transient. There isn't much doubt that he is at least BETTER than Adou and arguably better than even Wilfrid.

That said, there are some inconsistencies between how good he was hyped and how well he display his skills here. First of all, unlike the preview, Gunpla Academy wasn't losing. At no point in the battle did I seriously felt that Gunpla Academy was even at a serious disadvantage. Sure, its cool that Lucas "took out" Shia and "disabled" Adou, but then we have to remember that his teammates are practically nonexistent, so that was more of just him balancing the fight than him actually winning. Second, while he does feel stronger than any individual Gunpla Academy members, it wasn't nearly enough to face 3 of them at once. In many ways, the fight felt one-sided against Lucas. It almost feel like he was struggling at times (especially given the focus on him during the fight) to keep his charade up and fight off 3 very strong opponents. On the other hand, while both Adou and Shia were visibly surprised or scared, Wilfrid never lost his cool.

There were also a couple of plot points that really could have been approached better:

The plavsky particle rate was something that was introduced as early as the Nielsen Labs fight between Sekai and Wilfrid. In the tournament fights of Try Fighters, the idea of it being a limit was fleshed out somewhat more. That said, I think I am with everyone else when I call BS on the way they explained it this episode, especially with Gunpla Academy seemingly running on infinite energy while Crossbone FC having to recharge every few minutes. But that was something that could have been SO EASILY EXPLAINED that I found it slightly insulting they didn't bother:

We know that Crossbone FC is a small MS. We know that it uses up a lot of energy with its weaponry. All they had to do was tweak Wilfrid's line from "Where does the machine store such an amount of particles?" to "How does such A SMALL MACHINE store enough particles to constantly use all its weapon at full power?" and suddenly, it would at least be somewhat excusable.

Second, its obvious that Lucas thinks he is good enough to solo the other teams and that "he doesn't like to leave something so fun to others". That part of him that comes off almost as selfish. I would have much rather they made this a bigger part of his personality and had him been a powerful player whose downfall is that he only focuses on himself. Not in a Junya "you're all on your own" kind of way, but a "you're all here to support me, the ace of the team" kind of way. We see that somewhat in this episode, but I think it was a lost opportunity that they didn't bother to emphasize as an ideological battle between the 1-ace-2-support vs 3-ace setup.

All said and done, I think this was one of the better team battles in the series. One can only hope that the grand finale between Seiho and Gunpla Academy is going to be at least as team-oriented and not just "we all have a rival on the other team, lets make this 3v3 into three 1v1s".

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Blazer-X

We know that Crossbone FC is a small MS. We know that it uses up a lot of energy with its weaponry. All they had to do was tweak Wilfrid's line from "Where does the machine store such an amount of particles?" to "How does such A SMALL MACHINE store enough particles to constantly use all its weapon at full power?" and suddenly, it would at least be somewhat excusable.

I've noticed that the official subs for GBFT can be remarkably awkward at times. I'm gonna wait until Anime-Gundam gets their release out and see if it's better with the dialogue, because they have more sensible translations.

[Yan3242]

One can only hope that the grand finale between Seiho and Gunpla Academy is going to be at least as team-oriented and not just "we all have a rival on the other team, lets make this 3v3 into three 1v1s".

Iam afraid right now its pretty much a 3 1vs1 match from the way we see.

Sekai - wilfrid, because rival
Yuuma - adou, because "revenge", overcome his fear, etc
Fumina - shia, because a random lady ask them to and probably a little bit of sekai i guess

Iam guessing...
- ep 22, some talk then fight concluded in between, ending with final team staring each other.
- ep 23, probably focusing on yuuma and fumina, with sekai on the last bit before ending the episode
- ep 24, first 15 minutes conclude all fight, last 15 minutes probably a random titbits like sei appearing maybe? Show end with try fighters high five and shout "go fight"

Pretty much how i see it.

[Yesman]

The refuelling thing was BS.

Greco and Fellini fought for 2 hours in the 6th World championship.

While Lucas' Crossbone has to constantly refuel in a few minutes, like a 1st generation Seed Gundam.

I'd guess that if you compare to say, the season 1 finale where Gundam Mao X Crossbone was firing off satellite blasts every three seconds- this change is designed to prevent that sort of thing in a competitive arena.

Wing Fenice's Buster Rifle still has a 3 shot limit.

[Justice Knight]

Originally Posted by Yesman

Greco and Fellini fought for 2 hours in the 6th World championship.

source?.......

[gundamdrawer]

Pretty much average episode for me. I expect a hot-blooded fight between Lucas and the Gunpla Academy but it didn't really happen. I'm more hyped for the episode preview for next week. It's Yuuma vs Minato finally. I hope that they deliver. And based on the episode preview, I get the impression that Yuuma and Minato are assimilated? They look like they got some damages or is that just artistic rage lines on their faces?

[Yesman]

Originally Posted by Justice Knight

source?.......

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Rather than get into a long-winded discussion, I'm simply going to quote two friends of mine from Spacebattles.

But basically tl;dr the issue with particles is that Lucas is using compressed particles at a rate higher than his gunpla can generate. Note that gunpla can run out of gas - recall GBF episode 14, when Sei and Reiji run out of juice and slide into second place behind the Super Renato Bros.

I would like to clarify that the SBS itself did not run out of particles, but rather it ran out of the absorbed charges which was fueling its Speed Mode, reducing it to standard output allowing the Renato brothers to win the race

[Rising Dragon]

I still don't know why Reiji didn't just shoot them from behind. Attacks were allowed in the race, after all, and he could've easily gotten first place by blasting the BuCUE Tank with the beam rifle.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I still don't know why Reiji didn't just shoot them from behind. Attacks were allowed in the race, after all, and he could've easily gotten first place by blasting the BuCUE Tank with the beam rifle.

Maybe he was afraid of taking the time to aim and shoot (and possibly missing or having the beams dodged, wasting particles) and instead opted for putting all available particles towards speed?

[rladls2121]

No wonder at that time Greco really wanted to win at the battle against Nielson.
Even though Greco was going to lose.

The most of the part is actually thanks to Alia that Lucas came this far.
Alia was also Best 4 back then.
But who knows, Alia wasn't at her best condition at that time.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I still don't know why Reiji didn't just shoot them from behind. Attacks were allowed in the race, after all, and he could've easily gotten first place by blasting the BuCUE Tank with the beam rifle.

Didn't they lose all their weapons when they were attacked by the mafia dude?

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by noobita

Best? The whole battle just revolving around Lucas hit and run until he got stomped. He cannot even kill one or two before he got defeated. His hype is simply a BS. Don't know why the animator want to made him "scared" Sekai for no reason.

He heavily damaged two of the enemy's mechs all by himself.He probably could have destroyed the two of them if it had been a full on one vs one.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Skye629

Maybe he was afraid of taking the time to aim and shoot (and possibly missing or having the beams dodged, wasting particles) and instead opted for putting all available particles towards speed?

You'd think so, but Reiji was pretty good at snapping off accurate shots, and given that they were moving in the same direction, wouldn't have needed much aiming anyway, unless they dodged--and tanks aren't well known for turning on a dime.

Originally Posted by quagmire

Didn't they lose all their weapons when they were attacked by the mafia dude?

Still had the beam cannons attached to the Booster. They were intact and undamaged.